The 7800 would have been/could be a great 'shmup' system

[classicvidgamer]

Like A Boss...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su63DF2J3dg

 

Source: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/222190-new-programmer-questions/?do=findComment&comment=3223517

This looks very nice! That boss looks cool and the graphics overall look great.

Looks very promising!

[TrekMD]

That looks really cool!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Their own port of Gyruss on the NES is terrible.

I own Gyruss for NES and rather enjoyed it. To each his own, I guess.

 

Disagree with this, Gyruss on the NES played smooth, had a pretty amazing and kicking sound track and was faster paced then the other home ports. Sure it was a different variation of the Arcade port but I thought Ultra did pretty good with it.

x2 Edited April 25, 2015 by stardust4ever

[AtariBrian]

I also do not like Gyruss on NES .

[Gabriel]

 

Their own port of Gyruss on the NES is terrible.

 

I'll just add to the chorus.

 

I hated many of the NES arcade ports I played back in the day. Millipede, Defender II, Cyborg Commando, Double Dragon, and Super Dodge Ball all seemed like absolute garbage. Most people seem to like the NES Pac-Man port, but it has always seemed off to me.

 

Gyruss was changed and NESified like others, but it was rather mild compared to the complete redos that Double Dragon and Cyborg Commando got. The NES version added the boss levels and that was the only big change. But all in all Gyruss was one of the cool arcade ports along with Joust, Popeye, and Road Blasters.

[The Usotsuki]

Maybe Tengen should've done their own Pac-Man port (like with Ms. Pac-Man) instead of just americanizing Namco's?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Maybe Tengen should've done their own Pac-Man port (like with Ms. Pac-Man) instead of just americanizing Namco's?

Remember, Pacman was originally released before Tengen went unlicensed. As a licensed developer, they were likely told what to release. Namco had already done the work. Later releases like T. Tetris, Ms Pacman, and Fantasy Zone were done in house and thus different from the Famicom versions. Ironically, the vastly superior Tengen version of Ms Pac was ported to both SNES and Genesis.

 

But you were right about Pacman seeming neutered. After playing vastly superior homebrew ports of Pacman on Atari, I've realised there is no "Cruise Elroy" mode in the NES port. Also the arade version had a larger maze with walls two sprite tiles thick and the pathway one tile thick. The NES port had maze and walls one tile thick, resulting in a smaller maze with fewer pellets. PMP's fullscreen 7800 ports used smaller tiles six high by four wide. That would have been difficult to pull on the NES without a scanline counter supporting mapper, with vertical spacing of background tiles being some value other than a multiple of 8.

Edited April 27, 2015 by stardust4ever

[MrMaddog]

C64 style shmups with Atari XE graphics? Yes, I would prefer those over the ones on the NES (Exceptions being Zaniac & Lifeforce).

 

 

You know, how the TG-16 is often regarded as a shmup system? I feel like the 7800 could have created a solid shmup reputation if it just had...shmups.

 

I've always played Joust (one of my all time fav games, if not the favorite) on the 7800 and been impressed at how many things are moving around the screen with no slowdown. Robotron pushes a lot of sprites around too. Of course these are not shooters in the shmup sense, but the point is MARIA. I know enough about MARIA now to know that sprites are it's strength, specifically moving many sprites with little flicker or slowdown. But I never connected that to the shoot'em up genre.

 

So now I have the Sirius and Plutos carts (thanks to all involved there, very happy to have them). And playing them, I keep thinking....man, THESE were the kind of games that (hypothetically) could have helped back in the day. THESE are the kind of games where I actually see the untouched/untapped potential in the 7800 so many here talk about.

 

Both games run pretty fast and very smooth, look good, and play well (Sirius is hard but I am getting better....finally hit level 4 last night and much cheering was heard). There's even some nice scrolling if I am correct.

 

Damn do I wish the 7800 had more shmups. Then, AND now. This system needed and needs more shmups!

[mbd30]

Not with those Pro-Line controllers.

[SoundGammon]

The 7800 could have been a great system back in the day if Atari wasn't competing with THEMSELVES!

 

Three systems: 2600jr, XE Game system and the 7800. Let's confuse the buying public!

 

If Atari devoted themselves to only the 7800 and NOT split their resources to making games for three systems, it would've been a bigger hit!

 

Quality of the games would have been better!

[Jinks]

They shoulda dropped the 2600 support 5 years sooner and focused on making better 7800 games. Atari was known in the later years as crappy graphics and boring games compared to the NES.

No one I know even knew what a 5200 7800 xegs etc even were. But everyone knew of the 2600 and games to laugh at like the swordquest series etc. So stupid bussiness plan and marketing.

[KappaGuy99]

It is very intuitive to think that Atari's support of the 2600 during the late 1980s was a waste of time and resources, but I think if they had actually done this, they may not have survived even until the Lynx rolled along.

 

Curt Vendel released software sales figures a few years back from 1986-1991, they are on this forum.

 

If you tally up the numbers, here's how it looks:

 

Cumulative Software Sales 1986-1991:

Category US Net Units US Net Revenue

2600 8,754,621 $48,407,191

5200 1,035,511 $5,032,828

7800 2,627,882 $23,965,258

XE 807,197 $6,597,979

 

Like it or not, the 2600 made up the mainstay of software sales.

 

Based on the sales figures, in conjunction with the differentiation between consoles and computers, I think the XEGS was the true waste of time and resources.

Edited August 19, 2015 by KappaGuy99

[Jinks]

It is very intuitive to think that Atari's support of the 2600 during the late 1980s was a waste of time and resources, but I think if they had actually done this, they may not have survived even until the Lynx rolled along.

 

Curt Vendel released software sales figures a few years back from 1986-1991, they are on this forum.

 

If you tally up the numbers, here's how it looks:

 

Cumulative Software Sales 1986-1991:

Category US Net Units US Net Revenue

2600 8,754,621 $48,407,191

5200 1,035,511 $5,032,828

7800 2,627,882 $23,965,258

XE 807,197 $6,597,979

 

Like it or not, the 2600 made up the mainstay of software sales.

 

Based on the sales figures, in conjunction with the differentiation between consoles and computers, I think the XEGS was the true waste of time and resources.

same with the 5200 not far off the xegs.

Just saying crappy graphics came to mind for some kids when comparing nes to atari. Because they were comparing it to the 2600 which atari would not let die. The 7800 could have been even more successful more than the 2600 if the same resources were given to it.

[Andromeda Stardust]

same with the 5200 not far off the xegs.

Just saying crappy graphics came to mind for some kids when comparing nes to atari. Because they were comparing it to the 2600 which atari would not let die. The 7800 could have been even more successful more that the 2600 if the same resources were given to it.

Wasn't the 7800 just a sexy way to play 2600 games?

[mbd30]

I remember we got an Atari 7800 at the time because it played our old 2600 games. The backwards compatibility is probably the best reason to buy one. If Atari had released a better controller and Nintendo hadn't prevented companies from also releasing games on the 7800, it may have been another story.

[DracIsBack]

Wasn't the 7800 just a sexy way to play 2600 games?

 

Begone ...

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Begone ...

 

To be fair, the 7800 was probably the one console most limited by its backwards compatibility, among those consoles that featured backwards compatibility.

[DracIsBack]

 

To be fair, the 7800 was probably the one console most limited by its backwards compatibility, among those consoles that featured backwards compatibility.

 

That's a bit different than saying it's a fancy way to play 2600 games; or 'the backwards compatability' was the best reason to buy one.

 

Unless people are suggesting that us posters who happened to personally enjoy 7800 games are full of sh*$ for liking them. In which case, I'd wonder what they're doing in a forum called "Atari 7800" to begin with.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

To be fair, the 7800 was probably the one console most limited by its backwards compatibility, among those consoles that featured backwards compatibility.

I mean, Genesis wasn't just a sexy way to play SMS, nor the PS2 to play PS1 games, nor the Wii to play Game Cube games.

 

In the 7800's defense, Atari earned more profit off 2600 sales during the 7800 lifespan than they did 7800 sales. Imagine that!

Edited August 20, 2015 by stardust4ever

[Bill Loguidice]

 

That's a bit different than saying it's a fancy way to play 2600 games; or 'the backwards compatability' was the best reason to buy one.

 

Unless people are suggesting that us posters who happened to personally enjoy 7800 games are full of sh*$ for liking them. In which case, I'd wonder what they're doing in a forum called "Atari 7800" to begin with.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. People like what they like and have their own reasons for doing things. I'm merely stating that I think in analyzing the story of the 7800 and all that it could have been, it's fair to say that being backwards compatible with the 2600 hindered as much as helped it, whereas with most other consoles that were backwards compatible, it never really manifested itself as a negative/hindrance.

 

My take on it is that if the 7800 released wide when it was supposed to in 1984, then the 2600 backwards compatibility would have been a positive. Since it didn't see wide release until 1986 (1987 in Europe), it would have been beneficial to downplay the backwards compatibility and focus more on 7800-specific stuff, with the 2600 compatibility a minor footnote. Of course, as we see from the sales figures, it did the 7800 no favors that the 2600 sold better overall, ensuring we'd see more 2600/7800-labeled games than 7800-labeled games for the life of the products.

 

I think another factor of course was the backwards compatibility was based around 1970s-era technology, when there was a relatively large leap to what the NES, SMS, and native 7800 was capable of (again, I'm not saying get rid of the feature, just downplay it). Even though it was just a generation behind, the gap seemed greater than what other systems have done in terms of backwards compatibility. Degrees matter.

[DracIsBack]

ensuring we'd see more 2600/7800-labeled games than 7800-labeled games for the life of the products.

 

Yeah - Atari had really, really WEIRD positioning of their systems. They'd license the same games for each system and release the same title in a 2600 version (marked "For 2600 and 7800") and a 7800 version (marked "for 7800")

 

As a kid, I actually thought that when I plugged in a game marked "for 2600 and 7800", the 7800 graphics I saw on the boxes and marketing would suddenly appear.

 

Imagine my disappointment when Winter Games looked exactly the same, and not like the game I saw on the 7800 product box

[Trebor]

Yeah - Atari had really, really WEIRD positioning of their systems. They'd license the same games for each system and release the same title in a 2600 version (marked "For 2600 and 7800") and a 7800 version (marked "for 7800")

 

As a kid, I actually thought that when I plugged in a game marked "for 2600 and 7800", the 7800 graphics I saw on the boxes and marketing would suddenly appear.

 

Imagine my disappointment when Winter Games looked exactly the same, and not like the game I saw on the 7800 product box

 

I had a near exact experience with the same game. I purchased Winter Games - boxed labeled for the 2600 and 7800 system. My thought process was if the cartridge was plugged into the 2600, I would get the 2600 version of the game, and when plugged into the 7800, I would get the 7800 version.

 

Huge disappointment when I plugged Winter Games into the 7800 and saw the 2600 version of the game.

 

Indeed, the positioning and marketing was weird (and confusing) to state the least.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Yeah - Atari had really, really WEIRD positioning of their systems. They'd license the same games for each system and release the same title in a 2600 version (marked "For 2600 and 7800") and a 7800 version (marked "for 7800")

 

As a kid, I actually thought that when I plugged in a game marked "for 2600 and 7800", the 7800 graphics I saw on the boxes and marketing would suddenly appear.

 

Imagine my disappointment when Winter Games looked exactly the same, and not like the game I saw on the 7800 product box

 

 

I had a near exact experience with the same game. I purchased Winter Games - boxed labeled for the 2600 and 7800 system. My thought process was if the cartridge was plugged into the 2600, I would get the 2600 version of the game, and when plugged into the 7800, I would get the 7800 version.

 

Huge disappointment when I plugged Winter Games into the 7800 and saw the 2600 version of the game.

 

Indeed, the positioning and marketing was weird (and confusing) to state the least.

 

Funny you mention that. It makes me think of the marketing Nintendo did with the Game Boy Color black shells. You could play them on your Game Boy Classic or Super Game Boy, then get the enhanced package at a later date when you upgraded to Game Boy Color / Advance.

 

Sadly, 2600/7800 games do not operate in this manner. There's no such thing as "enhanced" 2600 cart. Well, maybe Save Mary but that's it.

Edited August 21, 2015 by stardust4ever

[KappaGuy99]

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. People like what they like and have their own reasons for doing things. I'm merely stating that I think in analyzing the story of the 7800 and all that it could have been, it's fair to say that being backwards compatible with the 2600 hindered as much as helped it, whereas with most other consoles that were backwards compatible, it never really manifested itself as a negative/hindrance.

 

My take on it is that if the 7800 released wide when it was supposed to in 1984, then the 2600 backwards compatibility would have been a positive. Since it didn't see wide release until 1986 (1987 in Europe), it would have been beneficial to downplay the backwards compatibility and focus more on 7800-specific stuff, with the 2600 compatibility a minor footnote. Of course, as we see from the sales figures, it did the 7800 no favors that the 2600 sold better overall, ensuring we'd see more 2600/7800-labeled games than 7800-labeled games for the life of the products.

 

I think another factor of course was the backwards compatibility was based around 1970s-era technology, when there was a relatively large leap to what the NES, SMS, and native 7800 was capable of (again, I'm not saying get rid of the feature, just downplay it). Even though it was just a generation behind, the gap seemed greater than what other systems have done in terms of backwards compatibility. Degrees matter.

 

Very well stated, and a very good point. The 7800's sound is a prime example of this. The sound on the 7800 is simply crap compared to other late 80s consoles, and that is because the sound technology is no different from the 2600. Oh sure, you can add a sound chip to the cartridge, but how many games have those sound chips?

 

The end result to the average consumer was crappy sound, which was the direct result of backwards compatibility.

 

Regarding the sales figures, I think the biggest shocker was the 5200. AFAIK, Atari dedicated no resources to it during the 1986-1991 timeframe, and yet it sold almost as well as the XEGS, which definitely had resources devoted to it. I don't remember even seeing 5200 games for sale during this timeframe, and I do remember seeing XEGS commercials on TV. To me, the XEGS is a helluva flop when you look at those sales numbers. Right up there with the Jaguar.

 

Moreover, I don't think a strict focus on the 7800 would have helped Atari. There is a natural synergy between the 2600 and 7800. I think had the 7800 been released in 1984, as was the original plan, the console likely would have done better, and might have even made for a legitimate contender to the NES.

 

If you were a consumer in 1989 without a console, and you were only looking at Atari consoles for some reason, and you wanted "the best" console you could buy -- which would you get? The XEGS or the 7800? Which one was "better"? Atari themselves doesn't even really know or tell you. The XEGS commercials with software gaming executives talk about how the system is so high-tech, and yet it's using the 2600 joystick along with a keyboard, which doesn't exactly spell C-O-N-S-O-L-E. Meanwhile, there's this 7800 that seems really neat, and the controller has two action buttons, but it's not touted as being any better than the XEGS. To this day, I'm not even really sure myself which one is technically superior.

 

Point being... why sell both? There may have been a reason for it, but that doesn't mean the reason was a good one.

[KappaGuy99]

 

I had a near exact experience with the same game. I purchased Winter Games - boxed labeled for the 2600 and 7800 system. My thought process was if the cartridge was plugged into the 2600, I would get the 2600 version of the game, and when plugged into the 7800, I would get the 7800 version.

 

Huge disappointment when I plugged Winter Games into the 7800 and saw the 2600 version of the game.

 

Indeed, the positioning and marketing was weird (and confusing) to state the least.

 

I received the 7800 for Christmas, and I wanted the 7800 version of Asteroids. My mom accidentally bought the 2600 version of Asteroids, which we already had a copy of.

 

I was so happy and thankful to receive the 7800 that I never blinked, or flinched, and sure as heck didn't say "We already have this one." There was no way I could ruin that moment... To this day, I haven't said a word to her about it and never will.

 

Plus, I got Choplifter, and Food Fight, and Ms Pac-Man and Galaga. Tied for best Christmas gift ever with a snowblower I got from my Dad 5-6 years ago. (I live in MN and have retaining walls on either side of my driveway.)