After 36 years: Atari Educational System

[luckybuck]

Hi together!

 

 

After 36 years the Atari Educational System is nearly complete restored. Just 2 packages and 2 cassettes are missing. Who can help us for the benefit of all?

 

https://wiki.strotmann.de/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Atari%20Educational%20System%20Lesson%20Cassettes

 

 

Here is how:

 

https://atariwiki.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Intention%20of%20the%20Voice%20%26%20Data%20chapter

 

Thank you so much in advance.

Edited April 24, 2015 by luckybuck

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

Here we go again. Both your links give the following results on my desktop AND laptop (in updated CHROME / IE / FIREFOX) the problem is your site clearly since I never see this issue elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

And please none of that "You need to change this, or edit that" nonsense, one should not have to jump through hoops (as I have said before) to access a legitimate site, why would I see this here when it is not an issue ANYWHERE else ? The issue is on YOUR end, why can you not fix this?

Edited April 25, 2015 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[luckybuck]

Again, already solved from here on:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/234654-bug65-the-final-chapter/?do=findComment&comment=3170279

 

Just for short. You can trust the site (the certificate), else try it in an internet cafe. We just don't want to pay for making it "officially" trustable. That's all. You remember: 'Power without the price'?

 

Further, please proof, that the "officially" ones do better. Less stress just one(!) time, o. k., but that's all.

 

Atari was always open source from the beginning. We really would like to continue that path.

 

Sorry for the inconvenience, but please try to understand our point of view.

Edited April 25, 2015 by luckybuck

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

Well sorry but in my opinion that is ridiculous to expect visitors to do such things to access your site when nobody else would expect this. You don't want to pay for it to be officially trustable well why not? It is good enough for everyone else but better to inconvenience your visitors to satisfy this belief of yours? It is your site to do as you see fit but if you are going to advertise it asking people to check it out then you can expect honest fedback. If one cannot simply click the link you are providing then it is pointless.

Edited April 25, 2015 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[luckybuck]

Well, you are right, too.

 

But, what is speaking against clicking here:

 

 

 

?

 

Even in an internet cafe, in case you don't trust us?

 

At no time we plan to advertise the AtariWiki!

 

Please see here:

 

Manifesto.pdf

 

Just pure stuff from Atari users to Atari users. Nothing else.

[flashjazzcat]

Daft question, but why use https anyway if it incurs hassle and expense?

Edited April 25, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[luckybuck]

For security reasons...

 

More and more websites change to https.

[kenjennings]

If security is a reason, then the certificate issues should be resolved. If the certificate security warnings are not important for the people viewing the site, then there is no security reason for using https either. Just sayin'.

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

Well, you are right, too.

 

But, what is speaking against clicking here:

 

1.jpg

 

2.jpg

 

?

 

Even in an internet cafe, in case you don't trust us?

 

At no time we plan to advertise the AtariWiki!

 

Please see here:

 

Manifesto.pdf

 

Just pure stuff from Atari users to Atari users. Nothing else.

 

Well actually you ARE advertising by starting a thread and posting links asking people to look at them, it is FREE advertising but let's be honest about why you are here.

SERIOUSLY ARE YOU KIDDING ME? SURELY YOU MUST BE JOKING? You are suggesting I click to ignore clear warnings : I UNDERSTAND THE RISKS and CONTINUE TO WEBSITE (NOT RECOMMENDED) ? REALLY? Yeah, generally the rare time I encounter such messages I turn back or close the tab and I certainly will not be doing that, OH but I could just go somewhere and PAY at an internet cafe my own safety, I know there is might be a small language barrier here perhaps but do you even begin to understand how ridiculous this all is? JUST TO ACCESS YOUR SITE? Also, regarding your earlier post you pointed to another thread where you said "Already solved form here on...." NO NOTHING was "solved" you and another guy just gave EXCUSES and offered ways to either ignore and get around the warnings that is not solving the issue at the source which is at your end despite your claims and excuses. Did you see anyone else in that thread that seemed satisfied or feel the problem was resolved? No, just more people telling you why they would not import anything or add an exception to a security certificate. If your site is not important enough to comply accordingly, if it is not with it to you to have it appear valid and secure to visitors then it is not worth it to us to bother visiting.

AND NOW you add that you are using HTTPS for security reasons

WOW ok, you clearly do not see the problem nor do you see anything wrong with what you are asking people to do all because you want to save some money? Your excuses "'Power without the price?" and "Atari was always open source from the beginning. We really would like to continue that path." have absolutely NOTHING to do with the real problem here, if you want to save money and cannot bother bother making your site "officially" secure that is fine but please save the lame excuses. Hey, if anyone feels secure bypassing security warnings or adding exceptions to security certificates then I hope they enjoy your site, I certainly would not do this for you or anyone but hey as long as YOU say it's safe nobody should worry. I think from this point I will probably put you on ignore because I don't see the point reading about a site I cannot visit because I am not willing to make an exception in my common sense browsing habits.

[Bodyshots]

You guys are weird

[tschak909]

Ok, do we need to put together a pool to get a certificate for this site? They're cheap enough to get.

 

-Thom

 

Also, I wonder if anyone has a complete stash of all the Dorsett tapes? (There are something like 200 of them that Dorsett ultimately mastered for the Educational System, specifically for the Atari format.)

[ricortes]

If you are worried about it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20141218230537/http://atariwiki.de/wiki/

 

You can ask the archive to download a current snapshot if it doesn't have one stored already.

[+Allan]

Luckybuck,

Just want to thank you guys for putting these online. Your constant dedication, and thankless hard work is really appreciated by the Atari community.

 

Allan

[luckybuck]

Thanks Allan,

 

 

@OldSchoolRetroGame: quite easy, just ignore my posts. Security is just one reason, but not the only one.

 

@tschak909: Thanks, but we really would not like to do money transfers. There must be another way to come to an agreement. What I mean is the Educational System Master Cartridge in combination with the cassettes from Dorsett 1979. Especially for you is attached a pdf file with the complete list of the program. What you may have in mind is the APX program (a good soul from here is close to the 100 % of the program), else the Atari Learning System, please see below and here:

 

 

https://wiki.strotmann.de/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Atari%20Learning%20System%20Software

 

@rest of the world, who may have problems, here is extract from the site:

 

It is not an ad, it is a call to you all for help in finding just 2 packages and 2 cassettes and we have restored 100 % of the program!

 

Atari_Educational_System-Talk_&_Teach-Cassette_Courseware_Catalog.pdf

 

Complete list of the Atari Educational System Lesson Cassettes sets Atari made: 17 parts, each many cassettes! CX6013 seems to be not published, just 2 packages and 2 cassettes are missing, please see below the ones with the (X).

General hint: If you discover problems with reading of the files, please reset the Atari and leave the position of the cassette reader unchanged. Try again, until you hear high frequency sound or discover it works.

U.S. History CX6001 ; donated by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all. ; further thanks to Bill Lange for restoring the 1st part, which made the package complete! Thank you so much Bill. Please go ahead. :-)
(X) U.S. Government CX6002 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned. ; Cassette A-Side 2 is missing; please help us. :-)
Supervisory Skills CX6003 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned.
World History (Western) CX6004 ; donated by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.
(X) Basic Sociology CX6005 ; is completely missing; please help us. :-)
Counseling Procedures CX6006 ; donated by by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.
Principles of Accounting CX6007 ; from Atarimania, thank you so much!
Physics CX6008 ; from Atarimania, thank you so much!
Great Classics CX6009 ; from Kevin Savetz; Kevin, thank you so much to bring this artifact from the dark to the light! We really appreciate your help!
(X) Business Communications CX6010 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned. ; just Cassette D is still missing; please help us. :-)
(X) Basic Psychology CX6011 ; is completely missing; please help us. :-)
Effective Writing CX6012 ; donated by by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.
Auto Mechanics CX6013 ; never shipped according to Michael Current from the Atari FAQ
Principles of Economics CX6014 ; donated by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.
Spelling CX6015 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned.
Basic Electricity CX6016 ; donated by Allan Bushman. Allan, thousand thanks from the Atari community for your outstanding help! :-)
Basic Algebra CX6017 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned.

(X) still missing, but someone known has this!

Atari Learning System Software Content

AED-80001 Spelling in Context
AED-80002 Spelling in Context 2
AED-80003 Spelling in Context 3
AED-80004 Spelling in Context 4
AED-80005 Spelling in Context 5
AED-80006 Spelling in Context 6
AED-80007 Spelling in Context 7
AED-80008 Spelling in context 8
AED-80009 Math Facts & Games
AED-80010 Concerntration
AED-80011 Division Drill
AED-80012 Atari Sentences
AED-80013 Atari Lab Starter Set
AED-80014 Atari Light Module
AED-80015 The Learning Phone
AED-80016 U.S Geography I
AED-80017 U.S Geography II
AED-80018 Pascal 2.0
AED-80020 Secret Formula, Elemntary
AED-80021 Secret Formula, Intermediate
AED-80022 Secret Formula, Advanced
AED-80030 Introducing ..., Introducing Peter & The Wolf
AED-80033 Screen Maker
AED-80034 Player Maker
AED-80035 Book - Atari Logo, in the Classroom - a teacher's guide
AED-80037 Alien addition
AED-80038 Meteor Multiplication
AED-80039 Demolition Division
AED-80040 Aligotr Mix
AED-80041 Minus Mission
AED-80042 Dragon Mix
AED-80043 Super Pilot
AED-80044 Phone Home
AED-80045 Name Rondo
AED-80046 Create a Rondo
AED-80047 Instructional Computing Demo
AED-80048 Music I
AED-80049 Music II
AED-80050 Music III
AED-80051 Elementary Biology
AED-80052 Earth Sciences
AED-80053 Geography
AED-80054 Prefixes
AED-80055 Metric & Problem ...., Metric & Problem Solving
AED-80056 The Market Place
AED-80057 Basic Arithmetic
AED-80058 Graphing
AED-80059 Pre-Reading
AED-80060 Counting
AED-80061 Book - Free Software for Your Atari
AED-80062 Book - Atari Games and Recreations
AED-80063 Book - A Guide to Computers in the Classroom
AED-80065 Book - Atari Computer .., Educational Software Directory
AED-80066 Expeditions
AED-80067 Spelling Bee
AED-80069 Word Games
AED-80072 Atari Logo
AED-80077 Atari Pilot, Individual's Kit
AED-80078 Atari Pilot, Educator's Kit
AED-80083 Atari Microsoft BASIC II
AED-80084 LabMate - Home Edition - Ages 9-13
AED-80085 LabMate - Home Edition - Ages 14-15
AED-80087 LabMate - School Edition - Elementary
AED-80088 LabMate - School Edition - Jr. High
AED-80089 LabMate - School Edition - High School
AED-80090 AtariLab - Starter Set / Apple II
AED-80091 AtariLab - Starter Set / Commodore 64
AED-80093 Find It! / Atari
AED-80094 Find It! / Apple II
AED-80095 Find It! / IBM PC
AED-80096 Find It! / Commodore 64
AED-80097 Green Globs / Atari
AED-80098 Green Globs / Apple II
AED-80100 Yaacov Agam's Interactive Painting
AED-80101 The ABC of CPR
AED-80150 Simulated Computer II / Atari
AED-80151 Simulated Computer II / Commodore 64
AED-80152 Telly Turtle / Atari
AED-80153 Telly Turtle / Commodore 64
AED-80154 Telly Turtle / IBM PC
AED-80155 Telly Turtle / Apple II
AED-80158 Wheeler Dealer / Atari
AED-80159 Wheeler Dealer / Commodore 64
AED-80160 Wheeler Dealer / Apple II
AED-80161 Wheeler Dealer / IBM PC

Undetermined:
Animal World
AtariLab Curriculum Module - Light
AtariLab Curriculum Module - Temperature
AtariWriter Curriculum Guide
Conduit Algebra
Escape
Pilots
Swarthmore Trig

[gozar]

I'll just add that StartSSL offers free SSL certificates, which would get rid of the untrusted error.

[tschak909]

@luckybuck - No, I'm talking about the fact that Dorsett bought the software rights from Atari, circa 1981, and had gone through the trouble of converting the rest of their catalog.

 

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-educational-system-master-cartridge_1796.html

 

And the fact that according to Lloyd G. Dorsett (the guy who ran Dorsett Educational Systems): "Atari only licensed 256 lessons from us, spread across roughly 16 tapes. We had much more."

 

As is evidenced here:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=RN4_jLbVO3YC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=dorsett+educational+systems+inc&source=bl&ots=yMcgRoR67g&sig=0gbJc7FAuCHsot_Rh7w0dyXYLyU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=smI8VaezLISdsAWNuYCQCQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dorsett%20educational%20systems%20inc&f=false

 

 

And yes, Thank you, Luckybuck, this is a wonderful act of curation.

 

-Thom

[+Allan]

The thing that sucks about looking for dorsett programs on eBay is all the other things/people that have the name dorsett attached to it.

 

Allan

[luckybuck]

Wow Thom!

 

That is incredible news! Thank you so much!!!!!!

 

A moment ago, I didn't knew about that!

 

So now, we know for sure, that Lloyd G. Dorsett was so much ahead of it's time.

 

From my university I know, that in the last decade, the MIT had the goal to bring out all books on pdf. But Lloyd G. Dorsett did that 20 years ago with the there available technique. 1000... I am really speechless. That didn't happen very much.

 

Cool, so obvious, you were part of his team? Wow, as of this moment, we know for sure, that Atari brought out just the 16 packages. Auto Mechanics CX6013 was never released then and we can close the file, when the 2 missing packages arrive. :-)))

 

Thank you so much Thom for the information you share with us.

 

May god bless you at all times and everywhere.

---------------------------------------------------------

Popular Science-January 1983, page 99

 

 

[tschak909]

Nah, I wasn't part of the team, I just remember the ads like the one above.

 

And the 1000 lessons were with respect to each lesson on the tape. e.g. Dorsett considers that they shipped Atari some 256 lessons, spread across 16 tapes.

 

What I'm interested in, more than the existing tapes, is to disassemble the cartridge, and to dig out the data format used on the tapes.

 

It's rather special, because:

 

* It does not use the OS cassette routines, AT ALL. It couldn't, because the OS batches things into blocks. The data on the tape is literally continuous, with NO error checking whatsoever.

* The effective data rate is approximately 450 bits per second. This is actually somewhat helpful, because the tape reading routines literally bit bang POKEY to get the data, which must be processed at that moment.

* There is no "empty" space on the tape. From the moment the mag tape starts, hex 0xFF (all data bits marked) signifies a null byte, and the tape must be filled with these, so that the tape loading routines do not mistakenly interpret noise as data. (This is especially important because, again, there is NO error correction).

 

In essence, this is because the earliest implementations of this system were based on machines that used the Kansas City Standard tape formats, and the tape interfaces for those machines were basically MODEM devices that plugged into a serial port.

 

When these tapes were brought over to Atari, they were read into a specially modified version of the Educational Master System cartridge (which had a custom interface to a tape recorder which demodulated the original tapes), that would emit the Atari tones out to a standard 410 cassette recorder. These tapes would then be made into bin loop masters for duplication.

 

-Thom

[luckybuck]

Thom,

 

Yes, you are right, that is why the cartridge had to be used. Else, they could have used the BASIC cartridge. Didn't thought about that, because the tapes were marked as 'missed' and the cart was hard to get.

 

We are facing here a programming language. Will discuss this with the other Wiki authors. We may must insert a new one...

 

Of course, the data stream is of interest and how they made it. :-)))

 

We may be able to produce then some new edu tapes? :-)))

 

disassemble the cartridge: well, will discuss this with our Jedi team in August at the biggest assembly here in Europe. Good idea! Thank you.

 

But concerning the educational things, we are close to have everything digitized. Therefore, I would like to focus on the source code for MAC/65 and BASIC XE. For this purpose, I must find Stephen D. Lawrow. Further, we have trace to Mike Hohman. In my opinion these things are time critical. For example, finding someone like you with knowledge from 36 years ago... there are those, who call this a miracle. :-))))

 

So good to know you.

[Shawn Jefferson]

If security is a reason, then the certificate issues should be resolved. If the certificate security warnings are not important for the people viewing the site, then there is no security reason for using https either. Just sayin'.

 

My understanding is that it's also a philosophical stance by the owners of the site. They don't agree with the current model of certificate trust. Which is fine, each to their own. But users have been trained (and for good reason) to distrust any site that pops up warnings about it's certificate. I disagree with their stance on this personally, and I think they should just pony up the couple of hundred dollars (maybe less?) for a real trusted cert.

 

In this context however, unless you are logging into the site (ie. providing some confidential information to the site, like your username or password) then accepting the risk isn't a big deal. I don't expect every user to understand this of course, or have the background and knowledge to make that decision, and neither should the owner of the site...

 

Another risk, which I don't believe is valid here, is that while encryption protects against leakage of confidential information, like username and password, it also helps protect integrity of the data from man-in-the-middle attacks. There are other ways to validate downloads (SHA256 hash verification for instance) though, I suspect you aren't worried about someone altering your Atari software in transit anyway. Using a http site has the very same issue of course.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Shawn Jefferson

[tschak909]

OK guys, looks like I'm going to have to rant about TESTING THESE CASSETTES.

 

When transcribing these cassettes, make sure that BOTH channels are recorded. In two sets of tapes that I've found thus far:

 

* Great Classics

* Basics of Electricity

 

The "data" track is completely missing.

 

You must also make sure, when recording that the recording levels are normalized. Digital recording has a flat ceiling, with no saturation point, and thus you must make sure that you do not clip the recording. The best way to do this, is to ensure that you record to approximately 90% of the total ceiling, and then normalize the result. It is critical that the levels are high enough so that POKEY can detect the mark tones.

 

If you've listened to a Dorsett tape, you'll see that the encoding used on the tape isn't two-tone POKEY at all, but a much simpler format.

Recall that when I mentioned that there must always be data pulses present from the end of the leader, if there isn't, you'll see a heapful of garbage data spew out as the cassette auto adjusts its gain control and you get false mark/space readings.

 

From De Re Atari:

 

 

ROUTINE TO CHECK SYNC MARK: On the tape, non-sync is represented by "MARK" and Sync Mark is represented by "SPACE." (Space is a "0" frequency; it is a lower pitch sound than a Mark which is a "1" frequency. As mentioned before, Mark frequency is 5327 Hz, Space is 3995 Hz).

 

It wouldn't be hard for somebody to write a routine to deserialize the data coming off the POKEY. Polling the SKSTAT register should be sufficient to get the raw bits, one bit at a time, shift them into a byte, (while framing the start/stop bits appropriately), and decode the data that is coming off tape. You'll know you're right when you start seeing text. There will also be a whole gaggle of control characters.

 

-Thom

 

 

p.s. Did anyone besides me actually test these?

[tschak909]

A breakthrough, I've been able to write a routine to show the raw data as it comes off the tape (both on screen and in debugger), so I am now able to reverse engineer the byte code used on these tapes.

 

-Thom

[jacobus]

Thanks Allan,

 

 

@OldSchoolRetroGame: quite easy, just ignore my posts. Security is just one reason, but not the only one.

 

@tschak909: Thanks, but we really would not like to do money transfers. There must be another way to come to an agreement. What I mean is the Educational System Master Cartridge in combination with the cassettes from Dorsett 1979. Especially for you is attached a pdf file with the complete list of the program. What you may have in mind is the APX program (a good soul from here is close to the 100 % of the program), else the Atari Learning System, please see below and here:

 

 

https://wiki.strotmann.de/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Atari%20Learning%20System%20Software

 

@rest of the world, who may have problems, here is extract from the site:

 

It is not an ad, it is a call to you all for help in finding just 2 packages and 2 cassettes and we have restored 100 % of the program!

 

Atari_Educational_System-Talk_&_Teach-Cassette_Courseware_Catalog.pdf

 

Complete list of the Atari Educational System Lesson Cassettes sets Atari made: 17 parts, each many cassettes! CX6013 seems to be not published, just 2 packages and 2 cassettes are missing, please see below the ones with the (X).

General hint: If you discover problems with reading of the files, please reset the Atari and leave the position of the cassette reader unchanged. Try again, until you hear high frequency sound or discover it works.

U.S. History CX6001 ; donated by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all. ; further thanks to Bill Lange for restoring the 1st part, which made the package complete! Thank you so much Bill. Please go ahead. :-)

(X) U.S. Government CX6002 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned. ; Cassette A-Side 2 is missing; please help us. :-)

Supervisory Skills CX6003 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned.

World History (Western) CX6004 ; donated by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.

(X) Basic Sociology CX6005 ; is completely missing; please help us. :-)

Counseling Procedures CX6006 ; donated by by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.

Principles of Accounting CX6007 ; from Atarimania, thank you so much!

Physics CX6008 ; from Atarimania, thank you so much!

Great Classics CX6009 ; from Kevin Savetz; Kevin, thank you so much to bring this artifact from the dark to the light! We really appreciate your help!

(X) Business Communications CX6010 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned. ; just Cassette D is still missing; please help us. :-)

(X) Basic Psychology CX6011 ; is completely missing; please help us. :-)

Effective Writing CX6012 ; donated by by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.

Auto Mechanics CX6013 ; never shipped according to Michael Current from the Atari FAQ

Principles of Economics CX6014 ; donated by Tempest from AtariAge. Thank you so much! :-) We really appreciate your help for all.

Spelling CX6015 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned.

Basic Electricity CX6016 ; donated by Allan Bushman. Allan, thousand thanks from the Atari community for your outstanding help! :-)

Basic Algebra CX6017 ; donated by someone who would not like to be mentioned.

 

I think I have both the Basic Sociology and Basic Psychology packages, I'll check and let you know.

[Bryan]

A breakthrough, I've been able to write a routine to show the raw data as it comes off the tape (both on screen and in debugger), so I am now able to reverse engineer the byte code used on these tapes.

 

-Thom

And the data is coming out now.... "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine..."