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Magic Carpet on Jaguar CD? Alex Trowers Lead Designer answers my question.


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#26 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 6:38 AM

Over to Mike, i started by asking just how Bullfrog as a developer 'viewed' the Jaguar platform:

 

Mike:'The Jaguar arrive at Bullfrog, and nobody was especially interested in it except me.'

 

Next up, of course, was question of wether coding was ever started on Jaguar CD Magic Carpet?

 

 

Mike: 'I tried (in my spare time) for a while porting magic carpet to jaguar, but it just couldnt handle texture mapping, and the gourad shaded look that jaguar was famous for just didnt cut it. (I believe and this is rumour that Atari payed Bullfrog half a million for the rights to magic carpet on jaguar to make themselves, which I shook my head at, at the time due to the impossibility of the task, and of course Magic carpet for Jaguar never materialized)'

 

 

So there we have it and sorry Groovy Bee etc, but i was'nt going on 'pure speculation' as you put it, like i said i was in contact with the key people, i just needed confirmation, which we now have....


Edited by Lost Dragon, Sat May 2, 2015 6:39 AM.


#27 save2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 6:39 AM

With all the research and interviewing you do and have done LD, be nice if real playable games or demos were to surface out of it. You never know just who has kept what throughout the years! :)

#28 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 6:46 AM

Whilst i'm 'sorry' the news from various coders etc has'nt been all that good, Jaguar community needs to grow-up a little here and realise games were under-funded, done by very small teams and sometimes just as a result of 'tinkering', over to Mike again:

 

 

'I volunteered to convert theme park to jaguar (I think I may have been doing the Amiga port at the same time or had just finished it) and also to do all the tek for syndicate jaguar. Had lots of fun doing it writing my own audio engine running on the dsp, and scale sprite draws etc, and it was a new process learning cartridge based game dev burning eeproms..'

 

Just be grateful for the bloody games we DID get and the information that's now coming to light.You did'nt have it before, so just accept it for what it is now, please.



#29 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 6:49 AM

Sadly, Save2006, 99.9% of the time it's same old story (a La recent Conan answers) all code lost due to....or nothing kept...or i think everything was thrown out.

 

Gutted, but it's been so long and people in question moved jobs, houses, work abroad now etc etc.

 

HDD Failures, clearouts, you name it.So much gone forever.

 

I'm just eternally grateful to them for at least being able to pass on the info.at least we have closure via what's been learnt in many cases.

 

Got 'feelers' out on claims of:Little Divil and Rise Of The Robots on Jag, not the big gun games i grant you, but be nice to add another 2 to the work so far.



#30 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 6:57 AM

Mike: 'I tried (in my spare time) for a while porting magic carpet to jaguar, but it just couldnt handle texture mapping, and the gourad shaded look that jaguar was famous for just didnt cut it. (I believe and this is rumour that Atari payed Bullfrog half a million for the rights to magic carpet on jaguar to make themselves, which I shook my head at, at the time due to the impossibility of the task, and of course Magic carpet for Jaguar never materialized)'


:rolling: :rolling: So Atari pays half a million to Bullfrog and one guy at the company works on the game in his spare time? Pure fantasy! If any company pays half a million to another company they are going to want results from a team, not one lone coder doing it in his spare time. Too damn funny! 
 


So there we have it and sorry Groovy Bee etc, but i was'nt going on 'pure speculation' as you put it, like i said i was in contact with the key people, i just needed confirmation, which we now have....


Again, you have absolutely no idea what the guy actually did in order to evaluate the jag as a viable platform for the game. He could have created a separate texture engine on the jag (or had one already) just to see what the jag could do without the constraints of logic/AI/sprite handling etc. Its called a benchmark and its far easier to port a benchmark than a full game.

#31 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:10 AM

No offence Groovy Bee, but i'm not getting into a coding debate as i know S.F.A about coding.Period.

 

And whilst you say i have no idea what Mike did, couple of points and NO offence intended but...

 

To start with you've not even seen the FULL EMAIL he sent me, have you? so you've no idea what else is in there and also, having taken the time to contact 2 Bullfrog Coders who worked on Magic Carpet PC and at least made a viable attempt to see if Jaguar could handle Magic Carpet, i'm happy with what i have found out.

 

Put it this way, before i took time out to get this info, the community here as well as myself did'nt have a clue what was done regarding Jag Magic Carpet if anything at all.

 

So lets just be grateful for info Alex+Mike kindly took time out to share with us, rather than start speculating what more could of been done....

 

 

If you'd like to ask Mike what he did, go for it, he's been very open with myself :-)



#32 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:15 AM

Also Mike made clear the half a Million from Atari was just a rumour, so of course it's pure fantasy, he never claimed it to be anything but......

 

There have been loads of rumours about Atari funding games, early reports claimed they were funding Return To Zork, then few months later reports had Activision saying game was'nt coming to Jaguar.Period, Bob Gledow reported as responding saying it was, comms breakdown to blame for incorrect info etc.Is it true? no idea, never been able to contact Bob or anyone from Activision that might know.Ditto Interplay over claims they were'nt developing anything, let alone Battle Chess which Bob G.claimed was nearly finished.

 

But with Magic Carpet, 2 sources have shared what they knew/work they did, pointed out what rumours were in circulation.

 

Again it's simply info from the sources involved which we had'nt had in all the years since Jaguar was out.



#33 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:16 AM

To start with you've not even seen the FULL EMAIL he sent me, have you?


So why don't you post the whole email in this thread and be done with it?

#34 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:20 AM

Also Mike made clear the half a Million from Atari was just a rumour, so of course it's pure fantasy, he never claimed it to be anything but......


:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: So.... without all the "facts" at hand, I called you out on it and now its not true :roll:. Oh what a surprise!

#35 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:37 AM

i openly offered you the chance to read the full email, i'd of happily forwarded it over as i did the Conan one to many on here....

 

That i thought was made very clear from the start so no, you've not called me out as you put it, as offering to give full uncut info to anyone who asked for it, is'nt exactly me with things to hide...

 

Anywho, this is wasting valuable time, so brakes on park up and move swiftly on time.

 

In the general interest of greater good...from this point on whilst i'll happily share info as/when it comes in from various sources regarding Lost games, and i'll forward full emails to those who want it, i'm NOT engaging in debates based on what was said.It's just...well, bloody childish.

 

It's no wonder it's getting hard to get info on Lost Games, each time someone comes forward it all starts again by the numbers.


Edited by Lost Dragon, Sat May 2, 2015 7:45 AM.


#36 GroovyBee OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:44 AM

i openly offered you the chance to read the full email, i'd of happily forwarded it over as i did the Conan one to many on here....


:rolling: Dude, just post the whole email in this thread and put us all out of our misery.



you've not called me out as you put it


Really? Keep on smelling those jag fumes.

#37 Schmudde OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 10:54 AM

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: So.... without all the "facts" at hand, I called you out on it and now its not true :roll:. Oh what a surprise!

 

Actually, it was very clear from the original excerpt he posted. At least, to me.

 

I don't understand why these eMails are causing people to react so poorly. What gives? LD asked for some time from industry insiders about things that happened 20 years ago. The results are a mixed bag and almost entirely anecdotal. That's fine. It's still interesting (or not), but I don't see any reason not to treat the messenger with a little courtesy.

 



#38 Atlantis OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 11:42 AM

It's short email interviews with people more or less involved back then, nothing more nothing less.

It can give some hints to what may have happened, the rest is up to us to make whatever conclusions we want.

We all know the games weren't released. So no reason to become Einstein over that fact.



#39 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:14 PM

Over to Mike, i started by asking just how Bullfrog as a developer 'viewed' the Jaguar platform:

 

Mike:'The Jaguar arrive at Bullfrog, and nobody was especially interested in it except me.'

 

Next up, of course, was question of wether coding was ever started on Jaguar CD Magic Carpet?

 

 

Mike: 'I tried (in my spare time) for a while porting magic carpet to jaguar, but it just couldnt handle texture mapping, and the gourad shaded look that jaguar was famous for just didnt cut it. (I believe and this is rumour that Atari payed Bullfrog half a million for the rights to magic carpet on jaguar to make themselves, which I shook my head at, at the time due to the impossibility of the task, and of course Magic carpet for Jaguar never materialized)'

 

 

So there we have it and sorry Groovy Bee etc, but i was'nt going on 'pure speculation' as you put it, like i said i was in contact with the key people, i just needed confirmation, which we now have....

 

I am a little confused. I thought he said Atari was working on the Jaguar version of Magic Carpet? So who was working on it? Him? Atari? Both? 

 

The Jaguar is not great at texture mapping but it does it. Robinson's Requiem. World Tour Racing. Hover Strike and the CD sequel.  And Magic Carpet looked more like a rolling landscape rather than something complex like Quake but I really don't know how much difference that would have made.



#40 remowilliams OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 7:23 PM

Providing examples of the Jaguar's efforts at texture mapping (which are mostly really slow and/or horrible) and then wondering why it couldn't run Magic Carpet is more than a little confused.



#41 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 8:12 PM

Providing examples of the Jaguar's efforts at texture mapping (which are mostly really slow and/or horrible) and then wondering why it couldn't run Magic Carpet is more than a little confused.

 

What I'm confused about is why you're even in this forum or community. I can't even remember the last time you have said anything positive about the Jaguar or anyone who likes it.



#42 disky OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 8:20 PM

>I am a little confused. I thought he said Atari was working on the Jaguar version of Magic Carpet? So who was working on it? Him? Atari? Both? 

 

Mike Diskett here, just to clear this up.

 

I spent a couple of days evaluating Jaguar for magic carpet before later moving onto porting Theme Park /Syndicate to it.

 

This evaluation was done in my own time and wasnt anywhere near as complete as I would have liked but I did at least get all the gameplay and render code running without any texturing. Zero optimisation and the 3d projection was all running on the 68000 (which is probably what you would have to do in a final build because the GPU would be busy drawing polys).

 

While I was porting theme park, atari bought the rights to magic Carpet (so I was told) to produce the game themselves, they could have been working on it internally or have hired a third party, at that point it was totally out of Bullfrogs hands.

 

The Jaguar struggled with Texture mapping because the blitter wasnt designed for it, even a gourad shaded poly needed the blitter to be issued draw commands line by line 

With texture mapping you would have to do it all in Software, on its 'GPU' processor, this processor only had 4k for code and data and only had indirect access to main memory, it would have to keep stopping and dma'ing memory into its work buffer.

 

Years later I was working at Krome studios on MS Arcade (the xbox 360 arcade game emulator) were I got to write emulators for atari 2600 and arcade temptest/battlezone, and Jaguar was on the roadmap for that and I was really looking forward to delving back into Jaguar hardware, but alas MS canned Arcade.

 

Mike D.



#43 CyranoJ ONLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:13 PM

 

What I'm confused about is why you're even in this forum or community. I can't even remember the last time you have said anything positive about the Jaguar or anyone who likes it.

 

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it was a lot more recent than the last time you said anything sensible.



#44 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:24 PM

 

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it was a lot more recent than the last time you said anything sensible.

 

CJ you ol' stick in the mud. You know that's not true. 



#45 CyranoJ ONLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:24 PM

 

CJ you ol' stick in the mud. You know that's not true. 

 

I really wish it wasn't.

 

And please, don't for a second try and brush this off as 'friendly banter' - your true colours have shown several times.

 

Remo has provided far more to this community (a8, 2600, TI, Jaguar, ST, etc, etc) than you ever have or will.


Edited by CyranoJ, Sat May 2, 2015 9:34 PM.


#46 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:28 PM

>I am a little confused. I thought he said Atari was working on the Jaguar version of Magic Carpet? So who was working on it? Him? Atari? Both? 

 

Mike Diskett here, just to clear this up.

 

I spent a couple of days evaluating Jaguar for magic carpet before later moving onto porting Theme Park /Syndicate to it.

 

This evaluation was done in my own time and wasnt anywhere near as complete as I would have liked but I did at least get all the gameplay and render code running without any texturing. Zero optimisation and the 3d projection was all running on the 68000 (which is probably what you would have to do in a final build because the GPU would be busy drawing polys).

 

Mike D.

 

You wouldn't be privy to any of that code anymore would you? I know you wouldn't be able to release it because it doesn't belong to you in all likelihood. But would be interesting. 



#47 disky OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:42 PM

 

You wouldn't be privy to any of that code anymore would you? I know you wouldn't be able to release it because it doesn't belong to you in all likelihood. But would be interesting. 

 

No sorry, somehow I even managed to lose the syndicate wars source code I once had.

 

Back then we didnt have any source control software, I doubt even Bullfrog/EA have a copy of any of my Jaguar source code for games that got released, never mind a weekend side project.



#48 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:43 PM

 

I really wish it wasn't.

 

And please, don't for a second try and brush this off as 'friendly banter' - your true colours have shown several times.

 

Remo has provided far more to this community (a8, 2600, TI, Jaguar, ST, etc, etc) than you ever have or will.

 

Oh please. Yes my true colors have shown several times. Like they are now. I don't really take you that seriously. 



#49 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:47 PM

 

No sorry, somehow I even managed to lose the syndicate wars source code I once had.

 

Back then we didnt have any source control software, I doubt even Bullfrog/EA have a copy of any of my Jaguar source code for games that got released, never mind a weekend side project.

 

 

Well thanks for sharing your time anyway. I need to get Syndicate for the Jaguar.  People complain there is a lack of good videos showing good Syndiicate gameplay. 

 

You wouldn't still be in possession of a Jaguar  would you? A gameplay video of someone good at the game would be very cool.



#50 CyranoJ ONLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 9:54 PM

 

Oh please. Yes my true colors have shown several times. Like they are now. I don't really take you that seriously. 

 

I'm not going to get into this with you.  You have show how much of a total asshole you are several times. Anyone taking you on face value (Disky, beware) deserves all they get. Frankly, I'm amazed you are still allowed to even post here.






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