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Magic Carpet on Jaguar CD? Alex Trowers Lead Designer answers my question.


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#51 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 10:14 PM

 

I'm not going to get into this with you.  You have show how much of a total asshole you are several times. Anyone taking you on face value (Disky, beware) deserves all they get. Frankly, I'm amazed you are still allowed to even post here.

 

You've been taking jabs at me for a while now.  I didn't say anything to you. Not this time until you jumped in here taking pokes. And not the last few times you've jabbed at me in conversations I'm not even in. Chill out. You're falling apart. Go relax. It's just the internet.



#52 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat May 2, 2015 10:19 PM

 

You've been taking jabs at me for a while now.  I didn't say anything to you. Not this time until you jumped in here taking pokes. And not the last few times you've jabbed at me in conversations I'm not even in. Chill out. You're falling apart. Go relax. It's just the internet.

 

LOLs.  Annnd Ingore list.



#53 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon May 4, 2015 3:30 PM

My personal thanks again to both Alex+Mike for taking time out to help answer my questions and extra thanks to Mike for going the extra mile to post on here just what was attempted, how far along it got and hardware issues encountered.

 
Sorry to see the thread go rapidly south since....and briefly before, but for those who are interested in the story behind the attempted evaluation of wether it'd be feasable (even if it was just one coders efforts) it's very much appreciated.


#54 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 5, 2015 5:13 AM

I just want to make a point that Magic Carpet was one of those games I had to check off my bucket list and complete - but I also want to point out the last level was COMPLETELY UNFAIR!  :) - I think it took me over 3 hours to finish it!



#55 sd32 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 6, 2015 1:48 PM

>I am a little confused. I thought he said Atari was working on the Jaguar version of Magic Carpet? So who was working on it? Him? Atari? Both? 

 

Mike Diskett here, just to clear this up.

 

I spent a couple of days evaluating Jaguar for magic carpet before later moving onto porting Theme Park /Syndicate to it.

 

This evaluation was done in my own time and wasnt anywhere near as complete as I would have liked but I did at least get all the gameplay and render code running without any texturing. Zero optimisation and the 3d projection was all running on the 68000 (which is probably what you would have to do in a final build because the GPU would be busy drawing polys).

 

While I was porting theme park, atari bought the rights to magic Carpet (so I was told) to produce the game themselves, they could have been working on it internally or have hired a third party, at that point it was totally out of Bullfrogs hands.

 

The Jaguar struggled with Texture mapping because the blitter wasnt designed for it, even a gourad shaded poly needed the blitter to be issued draw commands line by line 

With texture mapping you would have to do it all in Software, on its 'GPU' processor, this processor only had 4k for code and data and only had indirect access to main memory, it would have to keep stopping and dma'ing memory into its work buffer.


Mike D.

Thanks for sharing the info with us disky. So, in your opinion, with proper funding and time, do you think you could have gotten a Jaguar version of Magic Carpet that at least retained the essence of the original?. We all know it wouldnt be a perfect conversion, but like the Street Fighter 2 games on the SNES and Genesis, with the right compromises, they retained the overall feeling and look of the arcade game.



#56 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:52 AM

Magic Carpet was an awesome game when it came out - still is fun to play as last year I decided to blast through the whole game - tough as nails but checked it off my bucket list :)
 
This would be a fun game to play on the Jag but alas no ST version to 'convert' ;)
 
Just a warning - stay away from Magic Carpet 2 - utter crap.


They're selling them on gog.com! I'll get to play them finally.

#57 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:33 PM

Oh God these controls...

#58 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:11 PM

Oh God these controls...

The controls can be brutal, initially, yes :)

 

You liking it ? How far are you ? How does the game look like for you (as you haven't played it back then, correct ?) ?



#59 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:23 PM

Correct.

The game looks fine. Draw distance is short. I really don't need super flashy. I grew up in this era so I'm absolutely ok with it.

This landscape could be done I believe in the 'voxels' of the day.

Haven't gotten anywhere except dead. Attacked by Eagles. And generally receiving an ass kicking.

Edited by JagChris, Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:25 PM.


#60 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:52 PM

It's unfortunate you didn't get a chance to experience the next-gen wow moment at that time.

 

Running Magic Carpet for the first time, I don't think there's been 5 other games in my life that delivered such wow factor and such amazing longlasting complex and brutally hard gameplay. Sir Molyneux at its best ;)

 

Technically, you're right about the voxels, I just couldn't accept it for this game :)

 

 

While it might not look like it, the first 30 levels are just a tutorial :lol:

The real hell starts with Level 31, Idirya, the infamous Water level :)

 

gamers today would sue the company for mental damages, if you released this game today :lolblue:



#61 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:26 PM

I mean the draw distance is short even for the era.

Yeah. I got this game and Soul Reaver. Which according to one source is the first PSX CD game to hide it's loading times successfully.

Edited by JagChris, Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:26 PM.


#62 VladR OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:37 AM

is it ? I mean, it's an open-world, huge maps, and you have deformable terrain. Kinda hard to find comparable games. But, perhaps those consoles had similar games ;) ?

 

I played a lot of flight simulators at that time (that's what drove all those crazy upgrades), and while those had much higher draw distance, their detail level was way way below Magic Carpet. And forget about deformable terrain. Or dozens of entities roaming about the map. Or 8 AI opponents systematically decimating all other opponents and creatures.

 

 

It's an incredible 3D engine. Especially in later levels, where huge swarms of bees alongside dozens other creatures roam the map in real-time, you throw a spell that smoothly starts flattening the hills down to the water level (with dynamic realtime reflections), on one side of the newly formed valley, the fire burns the trees, the mana explodes from the bee swarm that was just flying over it that particular moment, and on the other side of that valley, dragons attack the opponent's castle, which got leveled down by 1 level, with dozens mana balls slowly bouncing down the new hill and 4 baloons carefuly trying to catch them while they're rolling, all the while why you quickly swap between meteor spell you just threw onto the castle and lighting spell to zap the other opponent.

 

That something like that runs on 486, to this day escapes me. What other game of the era, even if it was on console, offered experience like this ?

 

 

Forget Abrash or Carmack. Whoever coded this is a GOD.

 

 

It's funny you would bring it up now - I was playing Morrowind on PS4 2 days ago and it reminded me how simple that game really is compared to Magic Carpet, as there was one scene with the castle on the hill that reminded me of MagiCarpet. Just very few (like, 5 at most) enemies on screen, with occasional human player showing up. Wouldn't Magic Carpet in current visuals be awesome ?



#63 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:48 AM

It's unfortunate you didn't get a chance to experience the next-gen wow moment at that time.

 

Running Magic Carpet for the first time, I don't think there's been 5 other games in my life that delivered such wow factor and such amazing longlasting complex and brutally hard gameplay. Sir Molyneux at its best ;)

 

Technically, you're right about the voxels, I just couldn't accept it for this game :)

 

 

While it might not look like it, the first 30 levels are just a tutorial :lol:

The real hell starts with Level 31, Idirya, the infamous Water level :)

 

gamers today would sue the company for mental damages, if you released this game today :lolblue:

 

Magic Carpet was so good when it was released that I had to finish it as a bucket list item.  My 486-33 at the time and Trident VGA card couldnt keep up with the game.  Turns out the game is somewhat locked in its max performance as I ran it under DOSBox on my current rig and the last level was like .01 frames per second even when I tried to speed it up.

 

Speaking of the last level, I dont see how anyone finished that back on a 486.  I think there were 6 dragons, swarms of bees and mana bubbles flying all over the place.  I believe it took me over 2 or 3 hours to finally win the damn game.........but it was worth it :)



#64 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:26 AM

@ValdR:

Don't give Peter Molyneux too much credit for his role on Magic Carpet.

Glenn Corpes coded the engine and the game itself was thanks to the hard work of a big team:


Engine Programmed by:
Glenn Corpes
Executive Producer:
Peter Molyneux
Management:
Les Edgar
Producer:
Sean Cooper
Lead Programmers:
Sean Cooper, Mark Huntley
Programmers:
Simon Carter, Phillip Jones
Lead Artist:
Findlay McGechie
Graphics and Art Concepts by:
Paul McLaughlin, Michael Man, Mark Healey, Eoin Rogan, Barry Meade, Tony Dawson
Introductory Sequence by:
Chris Hill
Introductory Support by:
Michael Man, Paul McLaughlin, Eoin Rogan, Sean Masterson
Level Concepts and Architecture:
Sean Masterson
Level Design:
Barry Meade, Alex Trowers, Jonty Barnes

It used to annoy seeing Molyneux interviewed in UK magazines when the companies games were the results of so many talented individuals.

Had the same with Hide Kojima. .think C+VG were the only magazine i saw interview a leading female artist who worked on MGS..

Magazines just lover to focus on the figure heads i guess.

When he slagged off every game the company had produced in an issue of the official Dreamcast magazine, whilst hyping DC Black And White, which Sega got tired of waiting for and canned..

I lost a lot of respect for him.

Don't even get me started on what he promised but failed to deliver in Fable and Fable II....

Edited by Lost Dragon, Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:31 AM.


#65 CyranoJ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:36 AM

Black and White was horrible - The entire game was in the first level, after that it had nothing.



#66 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:49 AM

Claims were that Dreamcast Black And White would offset the reduction in graphical detail, by having more spot effects than in the PC version.

Plus it would use the Dreamcast internal clock to simulate the passing of time.

If you were online with your DC it would check the weather maps for your area and have accurate weather in the actual game related to where you were playing.

A lot made of the support for the DC keyboard and mouse. .though another source from the company let slip they thought it very unlikely Sega would ship copies of the game with these.

It was just classic Molyneux hype.

Playstation 1 version also planned?.

#67 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:13 AM

Bit of info from Magic Carpet coder Glenn Corpes for VladR:

Glenn:I wrote the 3 DDA (U, V and shade) affine texture mapper for Magic Carpet to replace my original vertical scanning voxelish engine (never released but there is a movie of it inside the flight simulator ride in Theme Park if anyone is sad enough to look).

It was reused for Hi-octane, slightly upgraded for Magic Carpet II and Syndicate Wars and rewritten with optional PPro optimisations and a few new modes for Dungeon Keeper.

At some point along the way it should have had subpixel
accuracy added.

IMO the way the lack of z-buffer forced us to use smaller polygons paid off pretty well in making Dungeon Keeper at least look different.

Carpet 2 used an updated version
of the carpet engine, Hi-octane used an early version of the Keeper
engine but apart from that there is no common code outside the polygon
routine.

Populous 3 uses another variation of the same texture mapper.

I've always found that Glenn spoke very openly and happy to admit when others work had surprised him...

The Saturn version of Loaded for example, being closer to the PlayStation version than he had expected.

He was among the earliest coders i saw stating that custom lighting and transparency effects like those on the PlayStation, were possible, but they were just very 'expensive' in terms of system resources.

#68 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:48 PM

I hadn't seen Phase Zero developer comparing the Magic Carpet engine to their own before,if it's of interest to anyone, a few comments from them':

On question of if the game used a true Voxel engine:

' Nope,it’s not voxel, it’s interpolated height field’s. No 3-d pixels here ;)'

'It (the confusion) stems from the confusion created by the Nova
Logic people. Thier game, and our game do not use voxels, we use height fields.'

'Magic carpet uses a height field connected by polygons, Commanche uses a height field rendered by drawing lots of 2-d rectangles.

Phase Zero uses interpolated height fields (similar to magic carpet, but instead of large patches of texture mapped polygons, it’s tiny patches of goraud shaded thigies. They count on the detail in the texture maps to make upfor the relatively low detail of the height field, we use a height for every ‘pixel’ in our texture maps, and then smooth(interpolate) inbetween them to avoid the jaggies ;) Different techniques, cool results either way.'

Source:
Jeremy Gordon
President/Senior Programmer
Hyper Image Productions, Inc.

Edited by Lost Dragon, Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:50 PM.


#69 Stage_1_Boss OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:49 AM

Years later I was working at Krome studios on MS Arcade (the xbox 360 arcade game emulator) were I got to write emulators for atari 2600 and arcade temptest/battlezone, and Jaguar was on the roadmap for that and I was really looking forward to delving back into Jaguar hardware, but alas MS canned Arcade.

 

Mike D.

I'd just like to say thank you, I had a blast with Krome's Game Room on 360.



#70 JagChris OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:39 PM

Bit of info from Magic Carpet coder Glenn Corpes for VladR:

Glenn:I wrote the 3 DDA (U, V and shade) affine texture mapper for Magic Carpet to replace my original vertical scanning voxelish engine (never released but there is a movie of it inside the flight simulator ride in Theme Park if anyone is sad enough to look).

I wonder if this is shown in the Jaguar version. Has anyone seen it?

I haven't really played with my copy yet.

Edited by JagChris, Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:40 PM.


#71 PeterG OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:23 AM

I wonder if this is shown in the Jaguar version. Has anyone seen it?

I haven't really played with my copy yet.

There are no movies in the Jag version.

#72 agradeneu OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:30 PM

is it ? I mean, it's an open-world, huge maps, and you have deformable terrain. Kinda hard to find comparable games. But, perhaps those consoles had similar games ;) ?

 

I played a lot of flight simulators at that time (that's what drove all those crazy upgrades), and while those had much higher draw distance, their detail level was way way below Magic Carpet. And forget about deformable terrain. Or dozens of entities roaming about the map. Or 8 AI opponents systematically decimating all other opponents and creatures.

 

 

It's an incredible 3D engine. Especially in later levels, where huge swarms of bees alongside dozens other creatures roam the map in real-time, you throw a spell that smoothly starts flattening the hills down to the water level (with dynamic realtime reflections), on one side of the newly formed valley, the fire burns the trees, the mana explodes from the bee swarm that was just flying over it that particular moment, and on the other side of that valley, dragons attack the opponent's castle, which got leveled down by 1 level, with dozens mana balls slowly bouncing down the new hill and 4 baloons carefuly trying to catch them while they're rolling, all the while why you quickly swap between meteor spell you just threw onto the castle and lighting spell to zap the other opponent.

 

That something like that runs on 486, to this day escapes me. What other game of the era, even if it was on console, offered experience like this ?

 

 

Forget Abrash or Carmack. Whoever coded this is a GOD.

 

 

It's funny you would bring it up now - I was playing Morrowind on PS4 2 days ago and it reminded me how simple that game really is compared to Magic Carpet, as there was one scene with the castle on the hill that reminded me of MagiCarpet. Just very few (like, 5 at most) enemies on screen, with occasional human player showing up. Wouldn't Magic Carpet in current visuals be awesome ?

Honestly the Playstation version looks and feels terribly outdated compared to later offerings from 1995 onwards. Quite impressive for it's time but i would be more cautious with hyperbole for a height map engine with 4 Color sprites animation for moving objects,  running barely acceptable on an 486. Tie Fighter from 1994 actually IS a proper 3D engine and I'm more impressed with it than MC.


Edited by agradeneu, Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:31 PM.





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