Any Love For Early IBM PC/Compatibles?

[Seob]

Here is my current setup. Now playing comanche.

But i'm also a fan of adventure games.

The machine on top is my P100 32mb ram 1mb ark2000pv pci videocard, logitech soundman wave and gravis ultrasound max, 1.2 gb hdd 3.5" diskdrive and a zip 100mb and 8 speed cdrom.

Bottom pc is a p233mmx with 64mb ram, a matrox g200 and 3dfx voodoo II 12mb. Opti soundcard. Hdd and cdrom i don't know size and speed.

 

For flightsims i use a quickshot masterpilot so i don't have to memorize keyboard shortcuts.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Seob

[+OLD CS1]

heh... it so happens I have some good old boards (486 with PCI, no less,) hard drives, legit DOS 6.22, Wfw, and 98SE... and an absolutely crap-load of ISA and VLB cards. May be a new short-term venture

[Opry99er]

CS1... Build me a 486!!!

I pay in pesos or cucumbers/tomatoes from my garden...you pick.

[+OLD CS1]

CS1... Build me a 486!!!

I pay in pesos or cucumbers/tomatoes from my garden...you pick.

 

I bet where you live there is plenty of both pesos and weed.

[Clint Thompson]

The memories of that PC joypad... it wasn't great, but it was something!

 

Here is my current setup. Now playing comanche.
But i'm also a fan of adventure games.
The machine on top is my P100 32mb ram 1mb ark2000pv pci videocard, logitech soundman wave and gravis ultrasound max, 1.2 gb hdd 3.5" diskdrive and a zip 100mb and 8 speed cdrom.
Bottom pc is a p233mmx with 64mb ram, a matrox g200 and 3dfx voodoo II 12mb. Opti soundcard. Hdd and cdrom i don't know size and speed.

For flightsims i use a quickshot masterpilot so i don't have to memorize keyboard shortcuts.

[Nebulon]

No. Only hate.

 

 

Actually, to be fair, I really did enjoy Questron II, Space Quest II, and Thexder.

[MrMaddog]

TBH I wasn't interested in the original PC's with only 4 colors and a piezo speaker, but Tandy 1000 games were cool since they sit between the 8 & 16 bit generations.

 

My favorite PC games came from the 486 era where DOS based means they used the actual hardware to the fullest w/o some OS getting in the way. Although I use DOSbox to play them, I prefer using source port engines like GXDOOM to make the game feel more modern.

 

And I've known people who kept their old Windows 98 PC's for running the older PC games on since they don't run right on current 64-bit PC's. Me, I just use GOG versions...

[+OLD CS1]

Snoopy and the Red Baron was okay.

[boxpressed]

A trip down memory lane ...

 

http://www.classicdosgames.com/all.html

[Seob]

The memories of that PC joypad... it wasn't great, but it was something!

 

I had use a few quickshot joysticks, both analog and digital before i bought the gravis pad. I really liked it for use with platform games. For flight games i used a quikshot analog joystick and later a thrustmaster topgun pro. For racing games i used a digital edge f1 sim compact. A nice steering wheel although the pedals where of lesser quality.

[Keatah]

Check out this CGA demo. Goes to show you how underutilized hardware typically is, especially now!

 

http://trixter.oldskool.org/2015/04/07/8088-mph-we-break-all-your-emulators/

http://www.oldskool.org/

[Keatah]

Love'n the Mercury ON demo too.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15P3SkxJB9g

[ianoid]

I've been moving towards a good old DOS setup, and I'd love to get a '386 setup in a non-traditional box, like retrofitted into a classic console or something.

 

I think the big dividing lines are pre-640K and post-640K, as well as pre-USB and post-USB.

 

Dealing with expanded and extended memory was very case by case for software, so it is a bit of a pain.

 

Everything before USB is a bit of a pain to deal with for any expansion. The thought of dealing with Com ports and IRQs sends me into convulsions. It sucked then and I can't imagine it would be better now.

 

I have a working Tandy 1000EX but I'd like a regular 1000 setup for use. I have a Tandy 1000 that has issues I've been meaning to troubleshoot, but no time. Been meaning to post a pic of the boot screen on one of the more Tandy oriented boards.

Edited May 30, 2015 by ianoid

[Tempest]

My IBM PC 350 has 4 dip switches on the motherboard that allow the user to set the processor speed from a Pentium 100, 120, 133, 150, 166, and 200. This is a really cool thing as I could slow the system down to play older games. However the switches are impossible to get to without taking the case off and moving some stuff around inside the system so it's not something that can be done on the fly. I was wonder how hard it would be to somehow wire external switches for this?

[boxpressed]

I've been moving towards a good old DOS setup, and I'd love to get a '386 setup in a non-traditional box, like retrofitted into a classic console or something.

 

I think the big dividing lines are pre-640K and post-640K, as well as pre-USB and post-USB.

 

Dealing with expanded and extended memory was very case by case for software, so it is a bit of a pain.

 

Everything before USB is a bit of a pain to deal with for any expansion. The thought of dealing with Com ports and IRQs sends me into convulsions. It sucked then and I can't imagine it would be better now.

 

I have a working Tandy 1000EX but I'd like a regular 1000 setup for use. I have a Tandy 1000 that has issues I've been meaning to troubleshoot, but no time. Been meaning to post a pic of the boot screen on one of the more Tandy oriented boards.

 

For building a retro PC, the big dividing lines are operating system (software) and system bus interface (hardware).

 

While the line of what counts as "retro" is slowly moving, most people think about the DOS era through the Windows 98SE era (very similar to what counts as "retro" with console gaming). For the most part, the two operating systems that really matter are DOS and Windows 98SE. I believe there are some Windows 3.0/3.1/95 games that don't play well with Win98SE, but they're not deal-breakers. In fact, DOS was still the platform of choice for big-title developers well after the debut of Windows 95: Quake (1996), Duke Nukem 3D (1996), and Blood (1997). So, if you get a rig that can run Win98SE well (Pentium II at least), you can play most of the best games of the 1995-2000 era, as well as some earlier DOS games (you'll need to slow down the system for really early stuff by turning off the caches or using a slowdown TSR).

 

The system bus interface matters because you want an ISA slot, preferably two or three. The only P4 motherboards that include an ISA slot are industrial (and expensive), and some of those don't work right. So, your choice of processor is pretty much capped at the PIII. The most powerful retro CPU is the 1.4 GHz PIII Tualatin, with the 133 MHz system bus. It is faster than many early P4s. You want an ISA bus because you want to be able to have true Soundblaster compatibility in DOS. PCI sound cards simply aren't great in DOS, although some are okay. In fact, now that my sealed Intellivision collecting has hit a wall, I find that I'm collecting rare ISA sound cards.

 

The good news about retro PC gaming is that almost any problem can be solved with the knowledge available online (vogons.org is the gold standard). If you remember the bad old days of strugging with IRQs and DMAs, then know that getting a rig to work these days is much simpler because there are more resources at your disposal.

[Seob]

I often use vogons. It's a great source for classic pc gaming. Also a great source for drivers for the more obscure soundcards.

Found my logitech soundman wave drivers on vogons.

[boxpressed]

I often use vogons. It's a great source for classic pc gaming. Also a great source for drivers for the more obscure soundcards.

Found my logitech soundman wave drivers on vogons.

Nice. I'm actually listening to a Logitech Soundman 16 right now (Epic Pinball), which is, as you probably know, a rebadged PAS 16 Basic. Removed the AWE64 Gold just to hear OPL3 synthesis on the PAS. Have a GUS Ace in the same box.

 

Have a Soundblaster 1330A on the way, so dual OPL2 is in my future.

[Seob]

Nice. I'm actually listening to a Logitech Soundman 16 right now (Epic Pinball), which is, as you probably know, a rebadged PAS 16 Basic. Took out the AWE64 Gold just to hear OPL3 synthesis. Have a GUS Ace in the same box.

 

Have a Soundblaster 1330A on the way, so dual OPL2 is in my future.

The soundman wave uses a opl4 chipset.

I'm currently bidding on a sb awe 64 gold. Hope i can get it cheap. My sb 16 i currently own doesn't work.

Driver isn't able to find the card.

[+OLD CS1]

 

The only P4 motherboards that include an ISA slot are industrial (and expensive), and some of those don't work right. So, your choice of processor is pretty much capped at the PIII.

 

This is not entirely accurate. If you want new, yes, industrial and mostly expensive. Otherwise, it may be difficult to source them but plenty of first-generation P4 motherboards (socket 423 and early 478) had ISA slots, as well as numerous Athlon XP boards. You may, however, be limited to one or two in most cases, but you will also find that these boards, generally from the early- to mid-2000s, provided a good deal of DOS compatibility. Timing for really old games may be a problem, though.

 

My local vendor collects boards like this for special purposes. In particular, a lot of phone systems require ISA slots so he keeps a bunch on-hand. I will ask if he is interested in putting some up or letting me shuffle through his collection if anyone has any special needs.

[boxpressed]

Yes, there are P4 with an ISA slot, to be sure. The ones I have seen on eBay are very expensive: $200 and up. I heard that some of these boards do not assign a DMA to the ISA, which would render ISA soundcards useless. I'm not sure which ones do and which ones don't, however. If your local vendor has a stock of these, he should do a little research because he could be sitting on some very valuable hardware.

[+OLD CS1]

Yes, there are P4 with an ISA slot, to be sure. The ones I have seen on eBay are very expensive: $200 and up. I heard that some of these boards do not assign a DMA to the ISA, which would render ISA soundcards useless. I'm not sure which ones do and which ones don't, however. If your local vendor has a stock of these, he should do a little research because he could be sitting on some very valuable hardware.

 

$200 and up... damn. I have a couple of DFIs which will host Athlon XPs, and an Epox which hosts an Athlon, all with ISA slots. ISTR the DFIs will assign IRQs to ISA, not sure about the Epox.

 

Chances are he is not looking to bag $200 or more each for the boards, but he will do individual sales at reasonable offers. I will talk to him Monday or Tuesday.

[boxpressed]

I think the Athlon mobos with ISA aren't as valuable as the P4 mobos with ISA, but they're still desirable.

 

I don't see the attraction of P4 ISA boards, to be honest. A PIII with a 1.4 GHz Tualatin outperforms many early socket 423/478 P4s. And once the P4 overtakes the Tualatin, you've hit a ceiling for DOS game performance (the ISA is for excellent DOS sound cards). I've heard that Build Engine games (Duke 3D, Blood, Redneck Rampage) at 1600x1200 will stress a Tualatin, but most people won't play at that resolution or even have a monitor capable of displaying it well.

 

This link describes how the gap between the PIII and P4 is smaller than most believe:

http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=43395

[Keatah]

My IBM PC 350 has 4 dip switches on the motherboard that allow the user to set the processor speed from a Pentium 100, 120, 133, 150, 166, and 200. This is a really cool thing as I could slow the system down to play older games. However the switches are impossible to get to without taking the case off and moving some stuff around inside the system so it's not something that can be done on the fly. I was wonder how hard it would be to somehow wire external switches for this?

 

 

Should be very simple and straightforward. You're only working with switches, the most simple of electronic parts aside from plain'ol wires.

 

I see you'd have two choices:

 

1- Set the existing switches to off and wire in each new switch in parallel. This way you can toggle between both states with your own switch. And you can do this to just the ones you need such as 3,4,6. You can even use headphone connectors as an intermediate means of disconnecting the switches without having to remove them from the case if you wanna take the mobo out.

 

2- Desolder and remove the existing DIP and replace it with a socket and 16-pin DIP extension cable, then run it to a basic blank board that you make with switches and all. A simple blank board with holes will suffice.

 

I would expect that some motherboards would crash and lock-up (or do nothing) if you moved the switches while the power was on, so be aware of that.

[Tempest]

1- Set the existing switches to off and wire in each new switch in parallel. This way you can toggle between both states with your own switch. And you can do this to just the ones you need such as 3,4,6. You can even use headphone connectors as an intermediate means of disconnecting the switches without having to remove them from the case if you wanna take the mobo out.

I've actually never done anything like this before. I understand the basics of how toggle switches are wired up (positive, negative, ground), but I don't know how the dip switches are wired. Is it as simple as running a wire from the on and off of the dip switch to the toggle switch or is it more complex than that?

 

 

I would expect that some motherboards would crash and lock-up (or do nothing) if you moved the switches while the power was on, so be aware of that.

Yeah I seriously doubt you can do this with the power on.

[Keatah]

I have one of those Tualatin chips. Very nice and has extended the life of my old BX6-2 motherboard considerably - which is the gold standard for intel 440BX chipsets.

 

In fact, I've found this processor (and many others actually) to become outdated not by their speed, but by the instruction sets supported. And despite what the industry has you believe, again, it's not the CPU "getting slow" it's the industry building in more complexity into other parts. And shit don't work then.

 

I also agree that Vogons is the best place to discuss classic PC hardware and software. Atari Age is (hate to say it) slowly becoming a place for collectors. The nitty gritty tech stuff is happening elsewhere.