Do you feel it is somewhat cheating/blasphemous to use a modern controller?

[sloth-machine]

I love the classic CX-40 controller. Considering the date it was released, Atari hit one out of the park with this one, especially when compared with the very dated Fairchild Channel F and Odyssey Controllers. The CX-40 stood the test of time and brought the arcade experience home for having an authentic joystick in your hands.

 

I also realize a modern controller or genesis dpad doesn't mean you have an advantage, some people just hate dpads or analog stick for retro gaming.

However for me I can't help but just want to fire up Stella and just use my keyboard (commodore style) or 360 controller, which results in higher scores due to comfort and quicker accuracy. I have a CX-40 USB converter which is nice as well, but eh.

 

I know it's a stupid question as you can play however you choose, but what controller do you guys prefer when it comes to emulation?

Edited July 11, 2015 by sloth-machine

[+save2600]

Emulation?

[+sramirez2008]

I like to play the games as intended, with actual hardware, individual carts and mostly a CX-40. Having said this, I do own a Harmony and use certain controllers for certain games. (i.e. Starplex for Asteroids and Epyx 500XJ for H.E.R.O.)

 

I wouldn't call it cheating or blasphemous, if you like playing the classics with a modern controller, that's fine.

[+SpiceWare]

I normally use a modern version of the CX-40 (AtGame's brand new paddles are awesome as well!), though for games that support multi-button controllers I use a Genesis gamepad.

[Mr SQL]

I think the genesis pad is awesome for many games but horrible for maze games due to latency sliding your thumb around the direction pad; the genesis pad is also not fully compatible with the Atari and it breaks some of the more advanced games.

 

Likewise, modding your Atari for composite breaks the visual effects in some games - it's the hardware mods that can cheat you out of the intended retro gaming experience which makes a good argument for not modding the hardware

[Skippy B. Coyote]

When it comes to controllers for 2600 games I generally prefer to use some kind of joystick. Whether it's an original CX-40 or my current favorite joystick, the Wico Command Control bat style stick, it just feels right playing Atari with a joystick. It's the type of controller that the developers made their games to be played with, and I like the feeling of authenticity that comes from playing games the way their creators imagined them being played. The same goes for trackball and paddle controller games: I just like playing them the way that the people who created the games intended.

 

That said, I don't see anything wrong with anyone else playing games however they enjoy them the most. The whole point of playing a video game is to have fun, so whatever controller makes the game the most fun for you is the one you should play it with. I myself have been contemplating getting a CX-78 Atari 7800 controller to try out with 2600 games. It was an official Atari product and bundled in with many Atari 2600 Jr. systems, so I think it might be a nice way to get more precise and comfortable control in some of the platformer games on the 2600 without losing that authentic Atari feel.

[Mangia-Boy]

When you break a high score from the 80ies with the modern controllers, I would say that's cheating (or maybe a little bit less than cheating, but not 100% correct)

[Shawn]

When you break a high score from the 80ies with the modern controllers, I would say that's cheating (or maybe a little bit less than cheating, but not 100% correct)

 

I agree. While the score would still be valid, it's kinda like "ok now lets see you do it with this controller like he did".

[akator]

 

Do you feel it is somewhat cheating/blasphemous to use a modern controller?

 

Cheating is using an unfair advantage or breaking rules to create an "unfair" playing field. Cheating is only cheating if it breaks rules that others have agreed to.

 

Gobs of different controllers became available fairly soon after the 2600 was released. Using different or better controllers has been possible for a long time and there is no exclusivity to using a third party controller. Anyone can use a Genesis pad or a Wico stick or any other commercially available product. Because a Genesis pad is not a rare and difficult thing to acquire and use, there is nothing inherently wrong with using it.

 

A 1980 high score holder for a 2600 game can use a Genesis pad to achieve higher scores just as easily as anyone else.

 

If there are rules that demand only certain tools be used in a competition, such as in a tournament or official record keeping, then all involved should adhere to those rules. Using a Genesis pad when rules say only a CX-40 can be used is cheating. Because that is breaking rules.

 

If someone is a purist and refuses to use better tools for the task at hand, that is their own personal restriction. For example, if I insist on building furniture with only a chisel and a hammer, that is a personal choice to not use rulers, saws, power tools, and everything else available. Everyone is free to make those choices, but don't be a baby and whine about it when someone else makes a better table because they used other easily available tools to do a better job at the same task.

 

Blasphemy is about offending the rules of belief systems. If 2600 controllers and their use is that important, go for it, but realize that your newly established "Church of Proper 2600 Controller Use" will have very low membership.

[BassGuitari]

How is the Odyssey 2 joystick more dated than the CX40? They're basically the same thing, just with different methods of construction and operation.

(Unless you meant the original Odyssey, in which case, never mind. )

More to the topic, I don't consider it cheating to use a Sega controller on an Atari, but I prefer to use controllers that were intended to be used with a given system. I'm one of those purists Akator referred to.

[Nutsy Doodleheimer]

I wouldn't consider it cheating. It depends on what is comfortable for the intended gamer. If he/she thinks a Sega Genesis/Master System controller is comfortable to play 2600 games. Then that is their business. I do prefer to play with the wico bat handle controller on my 2600. It has great motion, plays smoothly and is a comfortable controller. But if you want to go for a world record per say Twin Galaxies? Yes you HAVE to play with the original hardware. It is too much of an advantage with a Genesis controller. And if you want to attemo the record by emulation lets say by PC. You should play the game with official 2600 hardware that has a USB port at the end to plug in. But as for me, I am a purist and like it to be original.

[sloth-machine]

How is the Odyssey 2 joystick more dated than the CX40? They're basically the same thing, just with different methods of construction and operation.

(Unless you meant the original Odyssey, in which case, never mind. )

More to the topic, I don't consider it cheating to use a Sega controller on an Atari, but I prefer to use controllers that were intended to be used with a given system. I'm one of those purists Akator referred to.

Yep I was referring to the original Odyssey

[BassGuitari]

But if you want to go for a world record per say Twin Galaxies? Yes you HAVE to play with the original hardware. It is too much of an advantage with a Genesis controller.

I don't consider it cheating to use a gamepad on the Atari because I see no discernable advantage to using a pad for games designed for joysticks. Nor do I feel it; I've tried using a Genesis controller for grins and giggles once or twice and not only did it just feel odd to me (could just be psychological since I've got "Atari = Joystick" stamped on my brain), but my scores weren't appreciably better (or worse, really) than my average joystick scores.

 

It comes down to what you like, whether joysticks or gamepads.

[Nutsy Doodleheimer]

I don't consider it cheating to use a gamepad on the Atari because I see no discernable advantage to using a pad for games designed for joysticks. Nor do I feel it; I've tried using a Genesis controller for grins and giggles once or twice and not only did it just feel odd to me (could just be psychological since I've got "Atari = Joystick" stamped on my brain), but my scores weren't appreciably better (or worse, really) than my average joystick scores.

It comes down to what you like, whether joysticks or gamepads.

Definitely understandable. I've played with a Genesis controller a few times and the 7800 European controller and I can honestly say. It's good on platformers and some shooters like Centipede and Space Invaders. The maze games are not as good with a Genesis controller and also Missle Command due to the motion and angles you need to mov. I honestly think you get better motion with a 2600 controller and that Wico bat handle works wonders.

[Cynicaster]

I do think it's cheating to use controllers with autofire and other such "automated" functions, but I agree with whoever said you should just play with whatever makes the games the most fun.

 

Genesis pad? Pff... if you want to use that thing on Atari, go nuts, but any high score you get is going to be in spite of that controller, not because of it. It's great for the platformers and beat-em-ups that pervaded the market during the late 80s and early 90s, but I can't think of a single game on Atari that I'd prefer to play with a d-pad over some sort of joystick.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

I say it's no more cheating to use a modern controller than it would be to use any of the third party controllers that were released during that 2600's lifetime (or even Atari made alternatives, like the Space Age Controller, but I don't think anyone actually uses that thing). Whatever is comfortable and suits your style. Baseball players aren't all required to use the exact same bat.

[Rhomaios]

 

How many of them are using anything other than the CX-40?

[sloth-machine]

 

How many of them are using anything other than the CX-40?

 

That's a cool picture, I never knew about this one before. It's interesting to see kids using the joystick with their thumb, a natural evolution to the analog stick.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

If you want to get real nitpicky about it, the first Atari joystick was actually the CX10, so any of you using the CX40 are cheating.

[BassGuitari]

If you want to get real nitpicky about it, the first Atari joystick was actually the CX10, so any of you using the CX40 are cheating.

If anything, that would be a handicap, wouldn't it?

 

I don't want to speak for other purists, but for me it's more about the definitive overall experience, not necessarily what came first. The beauty of that is it can vary from person to person. Maybe there are people out there who got an Atari early on and only ever used CX10s, and maybe there were PlayStation players who never used a DualShock. I doubt that describes very many people, but it's conceivable that they're out there. But most of us probably used CX40s and DualShocks and wouldn't think of it (or be thought of by others) as cheating.

 

"Cheating" really isn't the right word for this topic anyway. I still don't see using a different controller as somehow giving an unfair advantage, unless it's got a magic button that maxes out the score or something. A Genesis pad doesn't suddenly get one of those when you connect it to an Atari.

[Rhomaios]

If anything, that would be a handicap, wouldn't it?

 

I don't want to speak for other purists, but for me it's more about the definitive overall experience, not necessarily what came first. The beauty of that is it can vary from person to person. Maybe there are people out there who got an Atari early on and only ever used CX10s, and maybe there were PlayStation players who never used a DualShock. I doubt that describes very many people, but it's conceivable that they're out there. But most of us probably used CX40s and DualShocks and wouldn't think of it (or be thought of by others) as cheating.

 

"Cheating" really isn't the right word for this topic anyway. I still don't see using a different controller as somehow giving an unfair advantage, unless it's got a magic button that maxes out the score or something. A Genesis pad doesn't suddenly get one of those when you connect it to an Atari.

 

I think some people are thinking of cheating in terms of competition—scores made on a Genesis pad should be compared to other Genesis pad scores, not CX-40, or at least noted—while others are thinking of their own experience. I don't use a CX-40 when I play 2600 games. I most certainly don't use a Pro-Line controller for the 7800. While I have a couple different joysticks in use (but still looking for a competition Pro!) I don't consider any of it "cheating." I did, however, consider emulation "cheating." You didn't really beat a game if you used save states, for example. So the original question—are other sticks cheating when emulating?—seems backwards. The sticks and pads aren't what make it inauthentic (perhaps the better word here). Keeping ROMs in a folder on your fancy-shmancy PC is the inauthentic experience.

 

My simple 2c, no one need agree with me.

[BassGuitari]

But most of us probably used CX40s...

I should clarify, "as opposed to CX10s."

[+KaeruYojimbo]

If anything, that would be a handicap, wouldn't it?

 

 

There are those who would argue the CX10 is the better of the two.

 

If we're talking about authenticity, I used Suncom sticks (the TAC-2 and the Slik Stik) in the 80s, so using those now is "authentic" for me. For those who were born later and grew up with the Genesis or Playstation and got into the Atari later through emulation and a Gravis gamepad, "authentic" might mean something totally different.

 

If we're talking about performance, that's pretty subjective anyway, otherwise there wouldn't be so many different shapes and sizes of controllers. One player will swear they do better with joystick X and terrible with joystick Y, another player will say the exact opposite. As long as you're not using one that has rapid fire or is programmable, why not use the one you like? Isn't the point to enjoy playing?

Edited July 13, 2015 by KaeruYojimbo

[sloth-machine]

 

I think some people are thinking of cheating in terms of competition—scores made on a Genesis pad should be compared to other Genesis pad scores, not CX-40, or at least noted—while others are thinking of their own experience. I don't use a CX-40 when I play 2600 games. I most certainly don't use a Pro-Line controller for the 7800. While I have a couple different joysticks in use (but still looking for a competition Pro!) I don't consider any of it "cheating." I did, however, consider emulation "cheating." You didn't really beat a game if you used save states, for example. So the original question—are other sticks cheating when emulating?—seems backwards. The sticks and pads aren't what make it inauthentic (perhaps the better word here). Keeping ROMs in a folder on your fancy-shmancy PC is the inauthentic experience.

 

My simple 2c, no one need agree with me.

 

I definitely get what you are saying here and it is what I meant by cheating. But I also had to clarify, a Genesis pad doesn't mean 'advantage'. However I can definitely achieve a much higher score in a game like Gravitar with a d-pad. The Joystick gets tiresome in a game never designed to be played with a joystick in the first place. This is one example.

 

But for your point with emulation; with Stella it's definitely accurate in terms of response time and can feel like an authentic experience. I literally have my PC right next to my actually Atari/TV combo. I adjusted the filter settings in Stella to match the TV my 2600 is plugged into. Plus I am using a real Atari CX-40 with a USB adapter to my PC. When in the heat of a game I subconsciously forget if I am emulating or using real hardware. I never use any kind of save states though, it's not Ninja Gaiden here.

Edited July 14, 2015 by sloth-machine

[BassGuitari]

 

There are those who would argue the CX10 is the better of the two.

That's what I was saying.