Lost Dragon Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Thanks to an old Team 17 'Team Talk' archive i discovered that: Team 17 stopped all Jaguar work by Sept'95 as the user base was far too small to make it finacially feasable to support. Allegiance:Was Never really started on Jaguar, everything was done on PC, until Team 17 realised there was'nt much of a game to start with. Rollcage:Appeared to be PC Only at 1 point and in Team 17's own words was'nt a great original loss to see canned, as it was basically a Sega Rally clone. And Witchwood:Canned early on in development (i assume PC was leading version, PS1, Saturn+Jag conversions planned to follow?) as Team 17 were'nt even sure there was a PC market to support it/asked themselves how many PC owners would buy it. So, another 3 Jaguar games that never made it, but looks like would of made little/no impact had they arrived. Still nice to find out what became of them and why... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dangerous Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) Well at least (and most importantly) we got WORMS! Though Rollcage looks interesting...I am a big Sega Rally fan. Edited August 4, 2015 by travistouchdown 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Do you think (all being well) the Jaguar could of pulled off a decent version of Rollcage and thus had a Sega Rally Clone to add to it's list of games that attempted to mimic big name titles on other formats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Do you think (all being well) the Jaguar could of pulled off a decent version of Rollcage and thus had a Sega Rally Clone to add to it's list of games that attempted to mimic big name titles on other formats? In my opinion, no, because it's the type of game that the Jaguar has been shown to do poorly. Unfortunately for the Jaguar, with the racing games that it got, it's not clear that any type of 3D rally-type game would have performed well enough on the system to attempt. While I hate to bring up Supercross 3D, I suppose we could point to that for what a mythical "optimized" version of that game might be to see how a rally-type game might work on the Jaguar. It's not promising, though. They'd probably be better off faking the 3D and going 2D with scaling sprites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Westphal Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Of all Jag developers, Team 17 had a good chance at pulling off some decent 3d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Of all Jag developers, Team 17 had a good chance at pulling off some decent 3d. Why do you say that? 2D was their specialty at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 September '95 was actually quite late to abandon development on the Jaguar. If they waited until that point to determine the Jaguar wasn't "financially feasible" to develop for, they must've had pretty low expectations. Rollcage may have been a decent game if it were released but the video / still shots that are available don't look terribly impressive in the way of graphics. I don't really see why it'd be a stretch to see that game on the Jaguar. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 September '95 was actually quite late to abandon development on the Jaguar. If they waited until that point to determine the Jaguar wasn't "financially feasible" to develop for, they must've had pretty low expectations. Rollcage may have been a decent game if it were released but the video / still shots that are available don't look terribly impressive in the way of graphics. I don't really see why it'd be a stretch to see that game on the Jaguar. Maybe we should make sure we're all looking at the same version of Rollcage: http://www.unseen64.net/2010/10/07/rollcage-team-17-psx-saturn-3do-cancelled/ While it's not that impressive and rather sluggish in those early stages, I just don't see how the Jaguar could handle those kinds of textures and get anything resembling a reasonable framerate. I'm not sure if the version released for the PC and PlayStation by Psygnosis and developed by Attention to Detail has anything to do with the cancelled game, but that's obviously not even up for debate about being possible on the Jaguar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollcage_(video_game) and a video of the PS1 version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy1pmQVBz-k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Not this again. The Jag could barely handle flat shaded 3D, let alone a fully texture mapped environment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So the definition of a jaguar lost game has gone from "source code that was vaguely poked with a stick" to "jaguar lies forgotten in a cupboard gathering dust, while the PC version gets shitcanned" :rolling: . 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Maybe we should make sure we're all looking at the same version of Rollcage: http://www.unseen64.net/2010/10/07/rollcage-team-17-psx-saturn-3do-cancelled/ While it's not that impressive and rather sluggish in those early stages, I just don't see how the Jaguar could handle those kinds of textures and get anything resembling a reasonable framerate. I'm not sure if the version released for the PC and PlayStation by Psygnosis and developed by Attention to Detail has anything to do with the cancelled game, but that's obviously not even up for debate about being possible on the Jaguar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollcage_(video_game) and a video of the PS1 version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy1pmQVBz-k I doubt it's any relation to the PSX version, the psx version is what I expected when I first google'd it though. I don't see it with the same draw distance on the Jaguar (probably the PC version they are showing, as Lost Dragon suggested). But the flat shaded cars look like they came out of club drive and the terrain looks like hoverstrike with low-res low color depth textures. imo it just looks like the kind of game the jaguar could do just given what we've seen of the current library (nevermind all the "untapped potential" ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Uncontrollable, jerky, blurry 3D visuals. Yep, looks perfect for a Jaguar port. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I doubt it's any relation to the PSX version, the psx version is what I expected when I first google'd it though. I don't see it with the same draw distance on the Jaguar (probably the PC version they are showing, as Lost Dragon suggested). But the flat shaded cars look like they came out of club drive and the terrain looks like hoverstrike with low-res low color depth textures. imo it just looks like the kind of game the jaguar could do just given what we've seen of the current library (nevermind all the "untapped potential" ) The issue is there's no way that was going to be the finished game. That's clearly a very early working prototype with a lot of placeholder and proof of concept stuff, i.e., a lot of stuff from that era in the very early stages of dev looked liked that. While it's sad that that does indeed look like a Jaguar game in many ways, it's not what the finished product would have been (and arguably the Jaguar wouldn't have pulled off). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I agree, just saying that what they have shown looks like it could run on the Jaguar. Also agree that they probably would've added more to the game that could've quickly put it out of range of what the Jaguar was capable of (if the game was good enough they no doubt would've textured the cars and beefed up the graphics if it was in that state in '95). Just commenting on the current state as it is it looks like something that would've fallen between generations but not really on one side or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoGeoNinja Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnfPy3Wr82c Awesome soundtrack! Always loved Ministry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Havoc 2049 Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnfPy3Wr82c Awesome soundtrack! Always loved Ministry It looks like Club Drive meets Robinson's Requiem...lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 To myself Rollcage on Jaguar was never more than an annouced game that went missing soon after, in terms that there was never any actual Jaguar footage that i had ever seen, so no it's not technically a 'Lost Game' on Jaguar, PC yes, as that was properly started and canned and no amount of PC footage changes my viewpoint on that.... But then thread title does say missing Team 17 games to be fair.... As to wether the Jaguar hardware was suitable for a Sega Rally clone by any developer, personally i feel not. Whilst i'm not a huge fan of Sega Rally, i was very impressed by what Sega had achived on Saturn (my copy came bundled with 2nd hand Saturn i bought). But Jaguar was'nt the Saturn in terms of hardware and Atari did'nt have the money or coders Sega had... Team 17's finest hours for myself? 2D all the way....from Amiga, PS1 to DC, right upto PS3 and anything in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantis Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 It looks like Club Drive meets Robinson's Requiem...lol Yes, he he, very much. The frame rate would have killed your eyes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 I'd of been quite happy if they utilised the Jag's 2D abilities to do something along lines of Assassin, but really gone to town on it. Big fan of Strider and Turrican myself and never saw anything like these on Jaguar sadly :-(, but guess the genre had too limited an appeal to risk on the Atari format. The last thing the Jaguar needed was another clone of a big name coin-op/Sega Saturn game that just showcased how ill-suited the hardware was to texture-mapped 3D, press would of had a field day (again). At least by playing to the hardwares strengths with a 2D game they might of added another niche classic to the libary and had a future 'undiscovered gem' in the waiting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Not this again. The Jag could barely handle flat shaded 3D, let alone a fully texture mapped environment. Holy Christ, the Jaguar's capabilities are actually degrading?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Not this again. The Jag could barely handle flat shaded 3D, let alone a fully texture mapped environment. Holy Christ, the Jaguar's capabilities are actually degrading?!?! I was thinking the same thing The jaguar has quite an assortment of 3D and pseudo-3D engines from flat shading, Goraud shading, texture mapped, voxel and raycasting. Some of the engines are actually quite decent... imo it's often the game that's the issue (i.e. lack of talent among the modelers and designers and/or lack of budget for resources). The Jaguar can't do the kind of 3D that a lot of people expect when they look at the PSX as 32-bit then at the Jaguar as 64-bit and assume the Jaguar has to be comparable. But it could do some pretty impressive stuff for its time and they could've put a few decent 3D games on it given the proper project management that could've changes peoples opinion about the 3D capabilities of the system. as-is there's a bad combination of 3D not meeting expectations and mishandling of the engines that had potential to facilitate better games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto1980 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 i also think the jag never saw a nice jaguar optimized 3d engine ironsoldier2 comes close.. but i think there is still more possible atari should task Eclipse software to develop a 3D Lib/Framework they needed offer those fully textured 3d games they wanted.. think the key is optimisation in the 3d and texture calculation like in some other games (mipmapping, limited Colorpalette, different distance detail etc) in addition the fact that noone back until jaguars end ever used gpu outside the gpu ram belive in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Holy Christ, the Jaguar's capabilities are actually degrading?!?! The fumes have returned. It's been about a month since we had fume exposure around here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh3-rg Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 in addition the fact that noone back until jaguars end ever used gpu outside the gpu ram *bzzzzzt* 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 ... , press would of had a field day (again). ... they might of added another niche classic to the libary and had a future 'undiscovered gem' in the waiting... press would OF had -> press would HAVE had they might OF added -> they might HAVE added I'm the last person to correct but this rubs me wrong for reasons unknown to myself ... it just does, maybe because of all the posts of interviews I figure you as a reporter of sort, dunno! And yeah I'm discussing syntax here not semantic, because I always have to do a double take to mentally fix it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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