Do commodore games work on Atari ST

[cow comrade]

I just went to a yard sale and picked up three games for Commodore 64, one of the games (alien syndrome) says if works on Atari st in the manual. So that got me thinking how many Commodore 64 floppies work on the ST?

[ApolloBoy]

LOL, nope.

[Joey Z]

hmm, that's an interesting question because I wasn't aware of any C64/atari ST dual format disks. What size is the disk? 5.25" or 3.5"?

There were games that had one side of a 5.25" disk formatted to work on the C64, and the other side formatted to work on the atari 8 bit. Is it like this? a 5.25" floppy with one side for ST and the other for C64? that I could believe. There have also been examples of stranger 'dual formats' I don't remember what it was exactly, but there was a game someone reverse engineered that was dual format IBM PC and C64, on the SAME side. There was some pretty strange stuff there to get that working.

 

EDIT: this was it http://trixter.oldskool.org/2008/09/28/the-diskette-that-blew-trixters-mind/

Edited October 10, 2015 by Joey Z

[Marius]

There are several possibilities. The game is probably released for both Atari ST and Commodore 64.

The manual is probably not updated for the C64.

 

I also have a game here where the A side of the floppy is C64 and the B side is Atari 800XL.

 

The C64 is a complete different system, so zero C64 games run on Atari ST.

[cow comrade]

It gives power up instructions for c64 Amiga and Atari st

[Joey Z]

It gives power up instructions for c64 Amiga and Atari st

3 systems? in that case probably just generic instructions and different disks for each of those 3 systems.

[Paul Westphal]

Some are called ' flippy ' : c64 on one side and Atari 400/800/xl/Xe, but in this case they were too cheap to change the manual.

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

 

flippy-disks were quite common for e.g. a) A][ and A8 or b) C64 and A8. I have not seen a flippy disk with C64 on one side and ST on the other - but, errm, I do not own a C64 nor an ST...

 

There were also some commercial programs that had the C64 and A8 version on the same diskside ! Since these disks were completely unprotected, one could copy them with a normal sectorcopy program on the A8 (by ignoring all errors, since these were C64 data)...

Edited October 11, 2015 by CharlieChaplin

[+rdemming]

There were also Atari ST/Commodore Amiga dual format disks.

The two I know of are the games Lethal Access and Stone Age from Eclipse . These were largely formatted as an Atari ST boot disk and had a small section formatted in Amiga format where the Amiga could boot from. The game data was shared between the Atari ST and Amiga versions. The Amiga code thus read the game data from the Atari formatted area of the disk.

 

Atari ST/C64 dual format disks are physically impossible since C64 uses 5 1/4" disks and the Atari ST uses 3.5" disks. Yes, you could use 5 1/4" disk drive on the Atari ST and Commodore even released a 3.5" drive for the C64 but publishers never supported those drives.

 

Robert

[GroovyBee]

There were also Atari ST/Commodore Amiga dual format disks.

When ST/Amiga Format first launched (before going their separate ways as magazines) the cover disks were dual format as well.

[Bill Loguidice]

Yeah, no mystery here. It was absolutely common back then to have a single instruction manual that was often for the original version of the game (many times the Apple II, since that was often a lead dev platform in the 80s), and then an additional (separate) card or instruction sheet with platform-specific instructions. These were usually related to how to load the game on your particular platform and noted any changes to commands or functionality.

 

Boxes were often generic as well, sometimes with multi-platform screenshots on the back, and sometimes just with the original platform's screenshots (which often did the system it was ported to no favors). A little sticker in the front corner of the box would indicate the information for the specific platform you were buying, including "special" requirements, like memory or a joystick. Like with the single manuals, it was a way to save printing costs.

 

The above was particularly useful for companies like Avalon Hill, who often had cassette games with half a dozen versions in one box (different versions recorded at different points on the one cassette), which was a necessity back when there were so many different incompatible platforms on the market, and you just didn't know who to support.

[Dauber]

Wait, how can 3.5-inch floppies be dual format? Only thing I can think of was that the aforementioned game must have been actually on an Atari ST-formatted disk, which the Amiga could read with no problem via CrossDOS. (The formats of Atari ST and IBM PC disks are so similar that the Amiga recognized Atari disks as PC disks.) And the game couldn't have been bootable -- must have had to have opened it via Workbench.

[flashjazzcat]

I thought the disks were ST formatted on one side and Amiga formatted on the other? But that's dumb of me since you can't flip 3.5" floppies.

Edited October 12, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[Bill Loguidice]

Wait, how can 3.5-inch floppies be dual format? Only thing I can think of was that the aforementioned game must have been actually on an Atari ST-formatted disk, which the Amiga could read with no problem via CrossDOS. (The formats of Atari ST and IBM PC disks are so similar that the Amiga recognized Atari disks as PC disks.) And the game couldn't have been bootable -- must have had to have opened it via Workbench.

 

It was described accurately in this thread as you can see from the Wikipedia summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_format

 

The reason we didn't see it more was that it was somewhat unstable and the need kind of wasn't there after a while.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[+rdemming]

Yeah, no mystery here. It was absolutely common back then to have a single instruction manual that was often for the original version of the game

 

One of the worst I encountered was the Dutch AckoSoft release of the game Airwolf. The box was the same as for the C64 (and other) formats but the Atari version was completely different from the C64 version. The Atari version was actually a renamed Blue Thunder game while the C64 was a new game. Thus the box described the game play of the C64 version making me buy the game only to discover the game was very different from the description on the box.

I believe the manual inside the box was more towards the Atari version but I can't check that as I returned the game for a refund :-p

 

Seems the box of the Elite release is also describing the C64 version but at least they have a disclaimer at the front that it is a release of "Blue Thunder".

 

Robert

[kool kitty89]

I thought the disks were ST formatted on one side and Amiga formatted on the other? But that's dumb of me since you can't flip 3.5" floppies.

 

All Amigas used double sided floppy drives, so flipping wouldn't be necessary but if the boot sector of a disk was always on one side on both machines it might be problematic. (that could relate to the stability issues mentioned) With 8-bit computers, most drives were single-sided, so the flippie technique was necessary to get both sides (even if both were formatted for the same machine)

 

The early STs used single-sided 3.5" drives (double sided were optional and I think not even available from Atari at the initial release of the 520ST) and while single-side 3.5" disks were slightly cheaper (there WERE dedicated single-sided 3.5" diskettes), that detail still made it somewhat more attractive to make double-sided ST/Amiga disks plus the price difference in DS vs SS disks dissipated fairly rapidly in the mid 80s. (not sure if SS disks actually worked OK if DS formatted, the quality of the magnetic coating wasn't garanteed to be reliable on the second side but this might have been a non-issue in many cases)

 

This also only really makes sense for games that can fit on a single disk (so in the 360-450 kB range -depending on formatting) and gets less and less useful as the size increases. 2 disk games might be slightly useful but would depend on volumes produced and shelf space and the like. (a 2-disk ST game could be a 1-disk Amiga game) Or even more moot once enough double-sided ST drives were around to cater primarily to that with single-side versions being less common or available through mail-in options or the like. (sort of like PC games in the early 90s with various 3.5" and 5.25" formats, but less confusing)

[Rybags]

It was common for a time with magazine cover disks for ST that they used a special layout such that half the files were only on Side A, the rest on Side B as opposed to the default DS layout which has a cylinder arrangement interleaving files such that both tracks per cylinder were used then the next one etc.

 

I can't recall ever seeing dual format Amiga/ST floppies. I would guess that it's likely not possible - chances are both machines need the same track/side for the boot sector.

Non-bootable would probably not help, fairly sure the ST at least uses the boot sector anyway for a randomized number which helps with media change detection.

[GroovyBee]

I can't recall ever seeing dual format Amiga/ST floppies. I would guess that it's likely not possible - chances are both machines need the same track/side for the boot sector.

Non-bootable would probably not help, fairly sure the ST at least uses the boot sector anyway for a randomized number which helps with media change detection.

As I mentioned earlier, ST/Amiga Format (first 12 issues or so before they split coverage) had dual machine floppy cover disks so it was most certainly possible.

[Matej]

Do Xbox games work on Playstation?

[+MrFish]

Yes, Commodore 64 games do work with an Atari ST!

 

There is a miniature Commodore 64 built into every Atari ST. This is the technology that Jack Tramiel brought with him from Commodore.

 

You can clearly see the custom C64 chip on this 520ST motherboard at location U20:

 

 

Here we also have a prototype version of the chip (notice the keyboard is not quite complete at this point), as well as the later added 1541 chip (needed to simulate the slow disk loading speeds).

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by MrFish

[Bill Loguidice]

I can't recall ever seeing dual format Amiga/ST floppies. I would guess that it's likely not possible - chances are both machines need the same track/side for the boot sector.

Non-bootable would probably not help, fairly sure the ST at least uses the boot sector anyway for a randomized number which helps with media change detection.

 

All the evidence linked in the thread wasn't good enough?

[MrMaddog]

Yes, Commodore 64 games do work with an Atari ST!

 

There is a miniature Commodore 64 built into every Atari ST. This is the technology that Jack Tramiel brought with him from Commodore.

 

 

Ugh, if only they got the teeny tiny SID chip working for the game music...

[+MrFish]

Ugh, if only they got the teeny tiny SID chip working for the game music...

 

They did... it's just that a lot of sounds are that much more thin, buzzy, and weak, due to it's microscopic size.

 

But the BASS still sounds A W E S O M E!!!!

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by MrFish

[José Pereira]

Humm... did ours engineers when left Atari also went with the 8bit and put it together with POKEY in a small size inside the Amiga?

Edited October 17, 2015 by José Pereira

[carlsson]

As for manuals with loading instructions for multiple format, that was more the norm than exception here in Europe. You would usually have loading instructions for C64 tape, C64 disk, ZX Spectrum tape, Amstrad CPC disk, Amiga, Atari ST and perhaps some more. Normally those would be kept separate with rulers and bars, so you wouldn't mistake one game to run on multiple formats at the same time.