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XBox One backwards compatibilty


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#1 Master Phruby OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:15 AM

With the new release of windows 10 on XBox One, the system now is backwards compatible with XBox 360 games.

 

https://www.thurrott...box-one-preview



#2 cybercylon OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:25 PM

After reading that, is there any reason why Sony can't so something similar for PS3 games... or at the very least, PS2 and PS1 games?

 

Will be interesting to see which digital only games are supported since that is what is left of my collection....



#3 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:55 PM

If it's now available, why is everywhere saying November 12th? I'm pretty sure we have a couple of weeks yet before its public debut. 

 

There are persistent rumors of PS1/PS2 support, although with each passing press conference like the other day with no reveal, the chances seem to dim a bit more. But the next big Playstation media event is in early December, so hopefully that's where Sony announces their counter to this. 

 

Not only would disc/download support of the entire first two generations of Playstation software put a damper on the enthusiasm that Microsoft has generated (Especially if they go all out, with HD rendering at the top of the list of key features), it ties into two nice anniversaries for marketing purposes. The PS2 turned 15 years old this year and the PS1 enjoyed its 20th anniversary in most of the world this Fall (It launched in Japan in late 1994, but was released elsewhere in late 1995).

 

Their PS3 solution though is streaming those games on the PS4 via Playstation Now, a paid service. There's a lot of talk that a native solution isn't even possible within the constraints of the PS4, although similar talk from message board "experts" proclaimed similarly about the XB1 and the 360. But there doesn't seem to be much room here for hope. 


Edited by Atariboy, Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:24 PM.


#4 CPUWIZ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:08 PM

There is no backward compatibility, only a GPU interface emulator and a full re-compile on X86, which is why titles can not work from the disc.  It is all smoke and mirrors.

 

The PS3 would be much more complicated, because of the SPU's.



#5 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:11 PM

Which should be noted, isn't what anyone at Microsoft is saying. ;)

 

I don't know why they'd even want to lie. What's important to customers is that at least a subsection of the 360 library will be available. The technical underpinnings hold no significance beyond to Microsoft or to forum goers curious about how it all works. What's the incentive to not be honest? 

 

That said, the fact that it doesn't rip original discs directly and the file size disparity (The file size increase between 360 and XB1 versions of the same game isn't consistent like you'd expect if each file was just being paired with the same emulator) suggests that there's more to this than they're saying.

 

But until they say otherwise, I don't see how you can't go with the numerous statements to the contrary. 


Edited by Atariboy, Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:24 PM.


#6 Shawn OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:57 PM

This is not backwards compatibility of any sort. It is impossible to get a XB1 to emulate something as powerful as the 360. You would be hard pressed to get 1:1 emulation of the 360 out of the next generation after the XB1. The current machine doing it is just fanatic belief in micro$oft propaganda.



#7 Bilnick OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:14 PM

I don't care if it is called backwards compatibility, propaganda, rainbows and unicorns, or emulation, the few 360 games I have tried on the XB1 seem to work pretty well.



#8 CPUWIZ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:18 PM

I don't care if it is called backwards compatibility, propaganda, rainbows and unicorns, or emulation, the few 360 games I have tried on the XB1 seem to work pretty well.

 

And in the end, that is all that matters, which is what they are banking on, because it would be extremely difficult for Sony to pull the same thing off (SPU's). :)



#9 Hyper_Eye OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:10 PM

I remember when the original news story was posted here CPUWIZ adamantly asserted that the feature was not possible through emulation. I didn't believe it was possible beforehand either. Then shortly thereafter details were revealed and MS confirmed it was emulation. I have seen zero evidence since that time that would make me doubt that this is done through emulation utilizing Microsoft's existing VM technology and PowerPC emulation. They have stated that the games do not require recompilation or any intervention on the part of the developers. They repackage the games with the 360 OS in a VM app for Xbox One tuned specifically for that game. Because of the repackaging they require consent from the rights holders before they can release a game. This explanation accounts for the size difference in the Xbox One version of the games and for them not simply making all games compatible. I don't take this as definite fact but I would like to see anything that contradicts this besides stating hardware specs and how that excludes the possibility of emulation. I would say that the games that they have released so far have been on the easy end of the spectrum for emulation. The more complex games they have released have had some issues. Perfect Dark renders at 1080p but on Xbox One it gets scaled to 720p and then rescaled to 1080p if that is your display configuration. Some games have frame rate issues. Hopefully they will continue to improve this but I will not be totally convinced that the emulation is as good as they make it out to be until they release something like Crysis 3, Halo 4, or Gears of War 3. Supposedly Gears 3 will be coming soon so we shall see.

 

CPUWIZ, unless you have some insider information that definitively disputes what Microsoft has stated about their emulation or you have seen articles or interviews that I haven't I'm not convinced that the games are recompiled for x86.

 



#10 wongojack ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:28 PM

This is pretty cool:

 

There will be exclusives. Some game publishers will provide older Xbox 360 games for free when you buy a new Xbox One game. For example, if you purchase Gears of War: Ultimate Edition on Xbox One, you get the entire catalog of Xbox 360 Gears games at no additional cost. That is an amazing value, and those are all pretty great games. There are similar deals with Fallout 4, Rainbow Six Siege, and Just Cause 3, too. And more on the way.



#11 Hyper_Eye OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:41 PM

They also said that all 360 Games with Gold games will be Xbox One compatible from now on starting in November.

#12 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:29 AM

Just to throw in another anecdote here, I've had backwards compatibility for several months now thanks to the Preview program, and even in the beginning it worked flawlessly (keep in mind, however, it will never be 100% exactly like a 360, including having a resolution limiter, but there are actually a few instances where performance is a little better via "emulation"). However they're achieving it, they're doing a bang up job. The only minor thing that kind of stinks about it is that it has to "load in" the 360 OS each and every time you start a 360 game, so it's literally like you're booting a 360 console every time you want to play a 360 game, which is not a speedy process. It doesn't just seamlessly start like native Xbox One content does. Of course that's also being spoiled by the way the newer hardware and OS works.

 

As for Sony doing something like this, I've said it before and agree with the other comments on here. Sony has zero incentive to do it. They're leading by a wide margin in this gen's console sales and they have a revenue stream, however modest, in PlayStation Now. Unless they're pushed, they'll have no reason to enable such a feature. I suspect if the Xbox One was instead in the lead, they might not have bothered dedicating resources to what is now kind of a killer hook. It obviously won't help much with closing the gap, but I think it will help a little, i.e., at least justifying the engineering effort and helping to sell more games that offer bundled backwards compatibility of older titles.



#13 WestofHouse OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:19 AM

The only minor thing that kind of stinks about it is that it has to "load in" the 360 OS each and every time you start a 360 game, so it's literally like you're booting a 360 console every time you want to play a 360 game, which is not a speedy process.

 

So just like the Wii U handles Wii games. Annoying, but I'll take it.



#14 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:33 AM

It's a long ways away from confirmation, but the Xbox head has stated in an interview that he'd like to not only bring direct Xbox 360 emulation to the PC (Versus the streaming solution available now via a XB1), but that he also would like to introduce original Xbox compatibility on the XB1.

 

To me that's much more interesting. Besides getting as many digital downloads as possible onto another system thanks to this feature, the limited nature of 360 emulation and the hard drive hit make this mostly just interesting from a technical perspective since it will never replace the real deal.

 

But Xbox emulation, even if it's just as limited, could bring significant improvements like HD rendering to the table (Assuming that he's not referring to utilizing the original but very flawed 360 emulator that itself is then emulated on the XB1). 

 

there are actually a few instances where performance is a little better via "emulation"

 

One thing I like is how it eliminates screen tearing. Especially in earlier years, that wasn't an uncommon problem on the 360 so it's nice that this sometimes annoying issue is eradicated here. But sadly, this solution seems to come at a frame rate cost during those moments. 

 

Hopefully they figure out a way for us to have the best of both worlds. 


Edited by Atariboy, Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:46 AM.


#15 leods OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:59 AM

I don't really understand what's going on. Is there a compatibility list anywhere? Or at least some Statement as of how many games will be supported? This actually interests me, but I want to Play games like Campcom Digital Collection, Deathsmiles and the fighting games.



#16 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:40 PM

I don't really understand what's going on. Is there a compatibility list anywhere? Or at least some Statement as of how many games will be supported? This actually interests me, but I want to Play games like Campcom Digital Collection, Deathsmiles and the fighting games.

 

Here's the latest official info: http://www.xbox.com/...d-compatibility. There's no reason for us not to believe them that the list will grow to hundreds of titles in the coming months like they promise.

 

If a publisher or developer allows it and it's a non-Kinect or other peripheral-based game, it can be made backwards compatible. Whether it ends up that way or not, like the backwards compatibility with select Xbox games on the Xbox 360, is uncertain. Either way, there are what, something like 1,000+ Xbox 360 games and counting? You can probably be sure that most of the high profiles titles will make it over, but beyond that, it's anyone's guess (I'm personally waiting for NBA Jam). Right now there is no Capcom stuff, but as you can see, the list of compatible games is modest at the moment, which is not surprising since it's still in Preview mode.



#17 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:46 PM

It's a long ways away from confirmation, but the Xbox head has stated in an interview that he'd like to not only bring direct Xbox 360 emulation to the PC (Versus the streaming solution available now via a XB1), but that he also would like to introduce original Xbox compatibility on the XB1.

 

To me that's much more interesting. Besides getting as many digital downloads as possible onto another system thanks to this feature, the limited nature of 360 emulation and the hard drive hit make this mostly just interesting from a technical perspective since it will never replace the real deal.

 

But Xbox emulation, even if it's just as limited, could bring significant improvements like HD rendering to the table (Assuming that he's not referring to utilizing the original but very flawed 360 emulator that itself is then emulated on the XB1). 

 

I would assume they'd take the path of least resistance with original Xbox compatibility (assuming they bothered at all) and just use the Xbox 360 emulator they already have. With that said, I suppose since the original Xbox and Xbox One have similar architectures (unlike the 360), it might just be simpler to create a separate emulator, since you can probably create something with better performance (and things like the special features you mentioned). I just don't know how enthusiastic they'd be about that, because unlike the Xbox 360, the original Xbox software is no longer actively sold and doesn't have much of a digital store (not that it's active anymore either anyway). It would be pure fan service, unless of course they made the original Xbox games available to purchase via their digital store, which might justify the dev costs.



#18 Gemintronic OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:15 PM

I wasn't really impressed with the pace and breadth of Xbox compatibility on the 360. So far I've not seen anything concrete to give me a better impression this time through.

#19 leods OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:21 PM

Wow, the list is really small.

 

And sorry, I don't believe a word any big Company says. I'll Keep an eye out. When at least a couple dozen of my favorite 360 games are available I'll start thinking about this. Thanks for the info.



#20 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:21 PM

I wasn't really impressed with the pace and breadth of Xbox compatibility on the 360. So far I've not seen anything concrete to give me a better impression this time through.

 

I can't recall anything significant missing with Xbox compatibility on the 360. I think the main issues were more performance related. At least thus far, there's little evidence that that will be as significant of a concern.

 

Again, this time around, I think the scenario is rather different with Xbox 360 games on Xbox One (including the aforementioned greater commercial incentive), so I think it's fair to say that they'll deliver on their promises in terms of breadth of games.



#21 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:26 PM

Wow, the list is really small.

 

And sorry, I don't believe a word any big Company says. I'll Keep an eye out. When at least a couple dozen of my favorite 360 games are available I'll start thinking about this. Thanks for the info.

 

Again, the list is only representative of what Preview members have access to at the moment. At the actual launch (November 12), there should be around 100 titles or so (and this is believable, because they'll want to make a big splash with it), with several hundred more to follow in the coming months. That's not awful, although still only representative of about 10 - 20% of the available library.

 

I just did a search and it looks the following publishers are confirmed to be providing support: Ubisoft, Warner Brothers, Capcom, 2K Games, Square Enix, Disney, Majesco, Sega, EA, and Bethesda. So that bodes well for some of your hoped-for Capcom stuff.

 

And finally, of course you can be skeptical of big companies and their promises, but this is one of those cases where there's nothing to be skeptical about. This is as straightforward as it gets. We know backwards compatibility works, it's just a question of how frequently new games will be added to the list post launch.


Edited by Bill Loguidice, Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:29 PM.


#22 omegadot OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:27 PM

If it's easy enough I'd think getting more money for old stuff would be guaranteed whether we wanted it or not.



#23 Bill Loguidice ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:35 PM

If it's easy enough I'd think getting more money for old stuff would be guaranteed whether we wanted it or not.

 

I don't get what you're saying. Can you clarify? There are a variety ways Microsoft is benefiting financially from enabling backwards compatibility on the Xbox One.



#24 omegadot OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:38 PM

 

I don't get what you're saying. Can you clarify? There are a variety ways Microsoft is benefiting financially from enabling backwards compatibility on the Xbox One.

 

Sorry, reffering to the above not trusting the talk about a lot of backwards compatibility.  I'm agreeing with you that it's probably something that will get a lot of support.  I'm just pointing out that I think beyond anything else, the allure of people possibly buying years old games would be a pretty attractive deal.  Especially on games that aren't so old the rights are hard to work out.



#25 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:26 PM

Two things I'm eagerly awaiting news of are titles with expired licenses and as an extension to that, delisted XBLA material.

 

Microsoft has supposedly stated for instance that all 1st party titles outside of Kinect will be joining this program. Yet Project Gotham Racing 3 and 4 surely have expired licenses for music and vehicles and aren't presently available for download. Will they be clearable even if they won't be available for digital sale to XB1 owners?

 

And how about situations like Outrun Online Arcade and Afterburner Climax? Can these titles join the compatibility list for those that already own them if Sega signs off on it, despite expired licenses and being withdrawn from sale?

 

I wasn't really impressed with the pace and breadth of Xbox compatibility on the 360. So far I've not seen anything concrete to give me a better impression this time through.

 

Like Bill already said, this is generally much more capable than that. There are few significant issues (Such as the low frame rate in the hub area in Banjo Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts), where as such problems were commonplace last time.

 

And adding a title is by all accounts from those involved, a trivial matter, where as it was much more involved last time out. They had to do extensive testing and disable and enable components of their emulator as necessary for each title since the 360 simply couldn't run their Xbox emulator with all options active at 100% speed. 

 

This time, it's essentially plug & play with testing just a mere formality. No settings customization and in some cases, rewriting of the emulator itself, is necessary here to add additional titles. 

 

Wow, the list is really small.

 

I didn't look at it, but I'm confident it's just the list of titles available to preview members just like Bill said. Microsoft not only has promised at least 100 titles at launch, but have also spoken that dozens of new titles will be joining that list each month subsequently. 

 

I would assume they'd take the path of least resistance with original Xbox compatibility (assuming they bothered at all) and just use the Xbox 360 emulator they already have. With that said, I suppose since the original Xbox and Xbox One have similar architectures (unlike the 360), it might just be simpler to create a separate emulator, since you can probably create something with better performance (and things like the special features you mentioned).

 

With how flawed their emulator was (Of the 50% of the lineup that joined the compatibility list, I'd estimate that 20% of those ran without significant issues, yielding a mere 10% of the library that was truly compatible), I sure hope not.

 

What makes it most plausible is that commonality you speak of that should make it relatively easy (They both utilize x86 based processors, for instance). And if Sony rolls out rumored PS1/PS2 compatibility, this provides an avenue to boast that the entire range of Xbox history is represented on the Xbox One where as the PS4 will never support PS3 software. 

 

I just don't know how enthusiastic they'd be about that, because unlike the Xbox 360, the original Xbox software is no longer actively sold and doesn't have much of a digital store (not that it's active anymore either anyway). It would be pure fan service, unless of course they made the original Xbox games available to purchase via their digital store, which might justify the dev costs.

 

If it happens, I suspect it will surely include digital sales as an avenue for Microsoft to directly profit off their expenditure. 


Edited by Atariboy, Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:33 PM.





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