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XBox One backwards compatibilty


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#226 negative1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:21 PM

Very cool.  And obviously the AT article was way off.  MS wouldn't bother with OG BC if 360 games were getting so little play.

 

Actually, the article might not be that wrong. But since Microsoft doesn't give out that information, except a quote about minutes played, there's really nothing else to go on.

 

Original XBOX games coming is easier, since is X86 based, there's also talk of porting those games to the PC also.

 

later

-1


Edited by negative1, Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:22 PM.


#227 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:25 PM

They're old enough I would think they could be emulated pretty simply.

I can play ports of some of my favorite Xbox games on my phone. :-) I didn't see that coming back in 2001.

#228 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:44 PM

Seems barely worth mentioning, but Fusion Frenzy was announced today as the 2nd BC original Xbox game. 



#229 PhoenixMoonPatrol OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:28 PM

OG XBox compatibility,this comes 3 months after I buy a soft modded XBox with 500 games on the hard drive....LOL damn! 

Eh its cool,happy to see the games coming to the XBox family. Hoping theyre abit improved but none the less this is a very cool thing.

Its a loyalty thing,goodwill to peeps that still have those games,which I have quite abit of(over 100.)

 

But I have some doubts that some of the heavily licensed games will make it over due to licensing. 

Buffy,Project Gotham Games,those for example have allot of tv and music copyrights that will have some hoop jumping to get them over to todays XBox gaming scene. 

None the less very very cool. I was hoping this would go down and that moment when Phil Spencer announced it the reaction from the fans was pretty special. 

Neat move. 



#230 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:36 AM

Yes, you'll have the best of both worlds. Your modded box can run classic game emulators, too.

#231 PhoenixMoonPatrol OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:35 PM

Yeah. The one I purchased came with emulators for all sorts of systems. 78,000 roms altogether. I mainly wanted this for the XBox games that come installed on the drive,but I have to admit I've been playing allot of the Mame and other classic emulators on it too. Overkill to have that many roms,but its nice to discover allot of games I never knew about. heh

Yes, you'll have the best of both worlds. Your modded box can run classic game emulators, too.



#232 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:52 AM

Sort of just stating the obvious right now when he says that not every Xbox game will be made BC and that the list will be smaller than it is for 360 games, but I do wonder what's more difficult here for them.

 

http://thisgengaming...ion-difficulty/

 

I wonder if they're thinking of trying to get Xbox Live functionality up and running for emulated Xbox games? Otherwise from my perspective as someone that doesn't really know much about the inner workings of this stuff, it strikes me as a much easier task than the daunting one that was 360 backwards compatibility on the XB1.


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:53 AM.


#233 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:14 AM

Otherwise from my perspective as someone that doesn't really know much about the inner workings of this stuff, it strikes me as a much easier task than the daunting one that was 360 backwards compatibility on the XB1.

 

The licensing. It's kind of hard to license something out from an entity when they no longer exist (Phil Spencer stated pretty much this in an interview with GameSpot). Also, there's also the issue with games that fall under properties that have had ownership changes over the years--I'd imagine the licensing could get messy in those cases.



#234 PhoenixMoonPatrol OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:21 AM

https://www.giantbomb.com/

Yep I saw that Giantbomb interview tonight too. 

He said to not expect it to be the size of the current XBox360 selection. 

Currently that one has 380 titles to choose from.

Its late and I'm tired so I can't remember his reasons for saying it,sorry. But yeah one can pretty much guess it'd be the licensing situation.

Damn good interview,he and Gerstmann talk games,VR,where the industry is going. Good stuff.  


Edited by PhoenixMoonPatrol, Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:24 AM.


#235 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:23 AM

Sort of just stating the obvious right now when he says that not every Xbox game will be made BC and that the list will be smaller than it is for 360 games, but I do wonder what's more difficult here for them.
 
http://thisgengaming...ion-difficulty/
 
I wonder if they're thinking of trying to get Xbox Live functionality up and running for emulated Xbox games? Otherwise from my perspective as someone that doesn't really know much about the inner workings of this stuff, it strikes me as a much easier task than the daunting one that was 360 backwards compatibility on the XB1.

They've stated that you can do system link across all three hardware generations with compatible games. That means local LAN only, like people used to do with Halo 1. I would not expect them to turn on he old internet servers for this, especially since they've been off for over ten years.

There were bunches of Xbox games that weren't compatible on the 360, most notably anything running the Unreal engine. I assumed it was too hard to emulate.

#236 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:57 AM

How does stating that system link is supported, also stating that online multiplayer is definitely out?

 

Saw this reasoning in the backwards compatibility thread at Neogaf, and was puzzled about it there as well. I don't see how they'd have to be any more mutually exclusive here than they were on the original hardware or the first 5 years or so of the 360's life. Both can be done on the XB1 rather than just one or the other, even if only system-link is cross-gen compatible across the Xbox family. 

 

That said, don't think I'm suggesting that I really think that online functionality will be present here. I think I even expressed my skepticism about that ever happening earlier in this very thread when past discussion about the possibility of original Xbox emulation came up. But even if it did, it would be Xbox One only. Nobody is talking about bringing back Xbox Live functionality for original Xbox games on the original hardware or the 360.

 

If that eventuality by chance did happen, we're talking a virtual environment on the Xbox One that taps into these hookups in online enabled Xbox games, and allows online matchmaking to again occur on the XB1 (Original Xbox games were all P2P except for EA published titles, so past matchmaking services, only download files and any leaderboard functionality they'd wish to reactivate would have to be hosted by Microsoft.).

 

 

The licensing. 

 

I understand that and the Xbox 360 which is only slightly newer than the Xbox but has far more games, has its fair share of issues in this area as well which sadly will keep away quite a few requested titles. But that was only one of the two reasons given. The other was that original Xbox emulation is "more difficult compared to Xbox 360 emulation".

 

That appears to be talking about the technical side of things rather than the paperwork side. What I'm saying is that I'm surprised to see that statement since on the surface this looks like a far less daunting task than getting 360 games running on the XB1 was. 


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:12 AM.


#237 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:53 AM

How does stating that system link is supported, also stating that online multiplayer is definitely out?

 

Because they NEVER talk about system link. If it were going to have online play EVER, they would have said something about it. QED

 

I would not rule out a home-brew solution, though. It would be pretty easy to make a software router for PC that could link people over a virtual LAN on the internet. It's been done before (xboxconnect, hamachi, Xlink Kai) and could happen again. Maybe GameRanger would be interested. 

 

It would probably work OK, assuming good speeds and low pings. My internet connection is a lot better than it was in 2001, and I suspect that's true of many people.

 

Just don't expect it from Microsoft, or running natively on Xbox One. 



#238 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:34 AM

I'd say it's a sound reasoning that if they're talking about system-link and not online multiplayer, you can probably read into it just what you have. 

 

I said this recently, but in all honesty, the Halo Collection on the XB1 probably takes care of the online multiplayer game that would ever stand a chance at getting back an active player base. Something like Midtown Madness 3, while great fun back then, likely would never reestablish itself where you could log online at any hour of the day and find people to play with. 

 

So it's really no great loss. It would be cool to see, but in practical terms it would be rarely taken advantage of past perhaps the first few days of availability for a once popular game joining the backwards compatibility list. And you risk fragmenting the player base of that collection as some players choose to play the HD rendered original rather than the remaster. 


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:36 AM.


#239 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:50 AM

I agree on all points, but you reminded me that Midtown Madness is no longer something we have, which makes me sad. :(

 

At least there are two dozen other, newer, better open world driving games! I feel better now.  :grin:



#240 Hyper_Eye OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:15 AM

Personally I'm glad they are doing this but I don't think it's going to be even close to as popular as 360 BC. We're old so it doesn't occur to us the percentage of Xbox users that weren't even born when the OG Xbox came out. My son is 13. He's a teenager. He was born at the end of the OG's life. He has played a lot of OG Xbox because I have them in my house and I hype him up about the games. Most of his friends don't even know what it is when they see it. I also think that people see OG Xbox games with their nostalgia goggles on. Some of them are pretty impressive like Black, Half-Life 2, and Just Cause. Most gamers will see OG Xbox games and immediately complain that the graphics suck. I don't know what they intend to do on Xbox One to improve the appearance of the games but we already got additional AA and upscaling on the 360. Upscaling is not a magic bullet that makes games automatically look better. If you upscale too much it makes them look worse. I also think it is highly unlikely that they will bring back Xbox Live for any OG titles.



#241 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:34 AM

Judging by hands on reports, these will be rendered in HD. That's a completely different animal than upscaling and can yield a significant boost in visual quality that can still look very pleasing on HDTV's. PC Xbox emulation seems to be in its infancy, but here's some GameCube, Wii, PSP, DS, and PS2 screenshots to illustrate.

 

Final Fantasy X (PS2) rendered at 3072 x 2688 via the PCSX2 emulator. 

 

ibnaqfb60kowhu_by_mcmemie-d8vgq3q.png

 

Xenoblade Chronicles (Wii) rendered at 3840 x 2160 via the Dolphin emulator. 

 

16152031066_241f6b913a_o.png

 

Soul Caliber Broken Destiny (PSP) running at 10X's the native rendering resolution, via the PPSSPP emulator. 

 

scbd7vu6t.png

 

Rayman 3 (GameCube) running via the Dolphin emulator, rendering resolution unknown.

 

GRHP411092.jpg

 

Metroid Prime Hunters (DS) comparison showing the visual leap between the native rendering resolution of the Nintendo DS hardware and the same game rendered in HD, running via the DeSmuME emulator.

 

Src3ef7.png

 

QlVDtKs.jpg

 

Alternatively, check out video on YouTube of Sony's range of PS2 classics on the PS4, which are rendered at a much higher resolution than they were on the original hardware or on the PS3. 


Edited by Atariboy, Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:51 AM.


#242 Hyper_Eye OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:03 PM

There's more to those images than just rendering at a higher resolution. Those emulators include a number of shaders and filters that are used to make those games look that good. I hope Microsoft will put that much effort into their OG Xbox emulator and we will see similar results. We just have to wait and see.



#243 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:52 PM

There's post processing effects like more advanced anti-aliasing, but the leap over original hardware is predominantly thanks to the rendering resolution. 



#244 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:37 AM

Sure seems like 360 additions are slowing to a crawl. Just went over a month with no additions until yesterday when Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, Blazing Angels, Cyber Troopers Virtual-On, Radiant Silvergun (That one will be a popular choice for shooter fans), and Commando 3 were added. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...e_with_Xbox_One

 

Given the quality of Microsoft's backwards compatibility solution and the large number of excellent candidates still left to be added, it seems a shame to see it slow to a trickle. 

 

I wish the lawyers would conclude that expired licenses for disc based games aren't an issue. Expired licensing rights seems to be the hold up for quite a few of the requested games from publishers that have been supporting this initiative, and I don't understand really why they think it's an issue. 

 

It's okay for me to go out today and buy a Xbox One for the first time and proceed to download Castle of Illusion to my new XB1 since this game had joined the BC list before it was delisted and I bought it on my 360 before the end arrived. Yet a publisher can't do the same for an out of production disc that I also already own? 

 

I don't quite follow the legal thinking there...


Edited by Atariboy, Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:40 AM.


#245 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:14 AM

 

 

I wish the lawyers would conclude that expired licenses for disc based games aren't an issue. Expired licensing rights seems to be the hold up for quite a few of the requested games from publishers that have been supporting this initiative, and I don't understand really why they think it's an issue. 

 

 

In my stupid not-a-lawyer brain, I really think that as long as you need the physical disc from the old game, you're not REALLY re-releasing the game, merely making use of the previous release of the game, so whatever licensing agreements allowed the original release of the game are still valid.  Essentially, they should be grandfathered in.  Of course, that's not how things work in the real world.



#246 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:14 PM

So glad Radiant Silvergun is compatible now. Nice to see Virtual On on the list as well!



#247 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:21 PM

 

In my stupid not-a-lawyer brain, I really think that as long as you need the physical disc from the old game, you're not REALLY re-releasing the game, merely making use of the previous release of the game, so whatever licensing agreements allowed the original release of the game are still valid.  Essentially, they should be grandfathered in.  Of course, that's not how things work in the real world.

 

I think the issue lays in that Microsoft is effectively redistributing the game by making you download it from their servers. That transfer of ones and zeros from one entity to another is likely enough to cause some legal issues. If it was a simple as offering an emulator and having it read your games directly from the disc, then I don't think it would be a problem--but that's not how it it's currently set up to work with 360 backwards compatibility.

 

In relation to the OG XBOX backwards compatibility recently announced, I wish they also planned to offer a standalone emulator that simply reads the games directly from the discs, potentially circumventing any licensing issues for people that still have the original discs.



#248 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:13 AM

While I kept trying to tell myself that it was wishful thinking and that I could only expect a limited selection of original Xbox games to be made compatible on the off chance that it ever happened, that's what I was hoping to see on the Xbox One ever since 360 backwards compatibility was launched to so much fanfare. :(

 

With the original Xbox looking more and more to be a 21st century Bally Astrocade that will be a struggle to keep reliably running, an alternate option that accurately runs these discs with the only differences being improvements compared to original hardware, would've been appreciated.

 

With no achievement nonsense shoehorned into here that we have to pay for being implemented since programmers have to search for virtual hooks in 10-15 year old software (Partly why PS2 Classics on the PS4 are so few and far between, I bet), I see no good reason why this particular emulator couldn't just be unlocked with the entire library made compatible in one fell swoop. 

 

Hard to believe they're resorting to converting and recompiling games here. Surely it's emulation, with some components perhaps able to even run natively without any modification needed (They're both x86 based systems after all). 


Edited by Atariboy, Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:23 AM.


#249 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:05 AM

 

I think the issue lays in that Microsoft is effectively redistributing the game by making you download it from their servers. That transfer of ones and zeros from one entity to another is likely enough to cause some legal issues. If it was a simple as offering an emulator and having it read your games directly from the disc, then I don't think it would be a problem--but that's not how it it's currently set up to work with 360 backwards compatibility.

 

In relation to the OG XBOX backwards compatibility recently announced, I wish they also planned to offer a standalone emulator that simply reads the games directly from the discs, potentially circumventing any licensing issues for people that still have the original discs.

Oh, I'm sure that there's a self-imposed legal snafu that keeps it from happening.  Lawyers ruin everything.  ;-)

 

I've said before that a legit, licensed emulator would be a fantastic app for today's consoles.  It would end the constant doubletalk as to if Backwards Compatibility was worth it or not.  Want to play your old PS1 games on a PS4?  Pay $30 and you can.  Don't care?  Don't do it.  Seems like a great solution and everyone would be happy, which is why it will never be done.  The idea isn't without precedent-- it would be really close to how the original Xbox handled DVD playback, just without the physical item purchase.



#250 Austin OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:16 PM

Hard to believe they're resorting to converting and recompiling games here. Surely it's emulation, with some components perhaps able to even run natively without any modification needed (They're both x86 based systems after all).


In an ideal world they would do both. There's probably still at least a small sum of money to be made on offering these titles for sale in the XBOX Live Marketplace, but it would be great if there was an easier solution for people with longstanding collections.




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