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Could Road Rash (3DO) be ported to the Jaguar?

Road Rash 3DO Port

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#1 travistouchdown OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:40 AM

One of my favorite "if I had a million dollars" pipe dreams is to have a road rash on the Jaguar.  The 3DO Road Rash is the pinnace of the series (imo) and i'd love to see that ported to Jaguar CD someday.  Are there any technical limitations that would stop the Jaguar from being able to handle that game?  I think the top 3d games on the Jaguar (Skyhammer, Battlemorph, Battlesphere) show that the Jag is capable of graphics on that level, but I wonder if there is something about the way that game is coded that would make trying to run it on Jaguar a nightmare.  Thoughts? 

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#2 save2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:48 AM

Might hope for Road Rash being ported from the ST or Amiga before you see a "made from scratch" version resembling the above.

#3 travistouchdown OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:14 AM

Might hope for Road Rash being ported from the ST or Amiga before you see a "made from scratch" version resembling the above.


Was it any good on the ST? Not so hopeful after hearing about Outrun...

#4 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:23 AM

I'd of been interested in seeing either a conversion of the 3DO game or a capable coding team attempting a clone of 3DO Road Rash on the Jaguar CD myself.

 

Over the past 12 months i attempted to contact people involved in 3DO Need For Speed to raise issue of just how they got around hardware limits of the 3DO (and from there i'd of put the question of wether they had any thoughts on Jaguar hardware and how it'd handle games like NFS/Road Rash....), but that got nowhere.

 

 

I also had questions sat with an ex-E.A coder who converted a few Genesis/MD games to the Amiga and i was hoping to learn a lot more about the conversion process there, but sadly, despite repeated assurances he'd be able to find time to answer the Q's..he was simply snowed under by work, so that never came through either. 



#5 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:59 PM

I emailed some guys who wrote some code 20 years ago and never got a response.



#6 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:32 PM

Was there actually an ST version?

 

Or have places like MobyGames, Wikip.etc just used incorrect info?.

 

E.A used to publically annouce ST support before dropping it, before supporting it again so often.....

 

I'd of thought by the time the game was released on MegaDrive the ST market simply was'nt a viable option for them.


Edited by Lost Dragon, Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:52 PM.


#7 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:30 PM

Was there actually an ST version?

No.



#8 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:20 PM

I believe it could be done with the Jaguar CD since it opens up the same options as the 3DO as far as streaming information, which is the way it was done on the 3DO for Road Rash and The Need for Speed and Crash n' Burn and others. B.J West's interview has him stating that Black Ice/White noise was using a similar streaming 3D engine. In any case, the Genesis' Road Rash 3 was pretty impressive and I am sure the Jaguar could do much better speed wise (FPS) while upgrading the graphics significantly, on cart or CD. Then there is the CD comparison of Soul Star on the Sega CD and Jaguar CD to give one an idea of how graphics might be improved on a Jag version. But even if the Jag (which I do not believe, I'm playing Devils advocate) couldn't handle a game like The Need for Speed with it's polygons, it definitely can handle the sprites used for the vast majority of graphics in 3DO Road Rash and I see nothing to the polygonal landscapes to indicate the Jag could not handle it, especially with the Jag CD streaming it all. Look to the 60fps of the Jag's Super Burnout for a clue, and even if that speed was reduced to 24-30fps it would still be as good or better than the 3DO Road Rash which runs at ~24fps. But chances are we will never find out for sure.


Edited by Gunstar, Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:25 PM.


#9 Lost Dragon OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:30 PM

It was due to the coders talking to Edge at the time how the streaming tech.they'd used on 3DO Need For Speed had allowed them to have a much better draw distance and get more trackside detail etc into the game that i tried to contact them (yes via email) and i'd of liked to of asked for thier thoughts on if it was specific to 3DO hardware or could be applied to any of the CD based hardware of that era, including the Jaguar CD.

 

That could of at least given some indication of how the Jaguar might have handled conversions of this nature, had things been very different.

 

'We' could of added their views to those of people like BJ West etc and gotten some sort of idea of what we could of realistically expected from 3DO conversions, it would of sat nicely with information from people like Mike Diskett who attempted to convert Magic Carpet from the PC, found Jaguar could'nt handle the Texture-Mapping, so went with plain polys etc...


Edited by Lost Dragon, Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:36 PM.


#10 sd32 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:32 PM

Instead of a port of 3DO Road Rash, i would prefer something thats all scaling sprites on the Jaguar, running at 60 fps like Super Burnout. After all, Road Rash on 3DO doesnt really give you the same feeling and freedom of a fully polygonal 3d engine, and runs only at around 20fps, so why try something like that on the Jaguar were it might run a bit slower due to how heavy it is on texture mapping, when you can have tons of sprites scaling all over the screen at way higher framerates.



#11 Jagman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:20 PM

I would be shocked if the Jag CD could actually handle Road Rash up to par of 3DO.. I think the hardware had too many flaws and limitations to really allow it.. and I think RAM or the way the Jag CD handles RAM would have nixed the chance alone..? 



#12 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 7:15 AM

Maybe. We'll probably never know for sure. But, as I said, the Jag could do a really beefed up version of RR3 from the Genesis, with more memory, even on a cart, like the Genesis and much bigger, better and more colorful sprites at a much better frame rate, And honestly, I think that would be better than 3DO RR, leaving all polygons out and at least 30fps compared to 20-24fps of 3DO RR. I think 3DO RR could have been better even on the 3DO.

 

Super Burnout uses a similar game engine to Genesis RR games but is much, much faster and smoother with HUGE sprites. Just picture it on the open road instead of tracks, with digitized sprites and fighting like Road Rash. There you have a RR that would blow away 3DO RR and ALL RR's before the full polygon versions on later 32/64-bit systems. Who needs the polygon road side landscapes anyway? I'd prefer one like Super Burnout and 60fps ANY DAY over 3DO RR. So why even wish for or try a Jag version of 3DO RR, let's get a superior 2D total sprite version like Genesis RR and SB on the Jag! We could then have a great CARTRIDGE version for all Jag fans and maybe and extended CD version with a killer R&R soundtrack for Jag CD owners! Hell, it wouldn't even have to be digitized sprites like Genesis RR3 or RR on the 3DO, it could be great hand-drawn sprites like Super Burnout or RR2 on the Genesis!

 

The more and more I think about it, I say SCREW 3DO RR and even attempting a version like that on the Jag, whether it can be done or not. Let's get a totally beefed up Genesis RR on the Jag! Because, come to think of it, I still prefer RR2&3 on the Genesis to RR on the 3DO. And a Jag version with spites as large as 3DO roadside graphics would be frick'n AWSOME.


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Nov 1, 2015 7:34 AM.


#13 LianneJaguar64 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 10:59 AM

Would be amazing to see Road Rash on Jaguar CD!

#14 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 11:26 AM

Why?
3DOs/Geneses (with "es" as it seems the accepted plural form of Genesis) are cheap these days (cheaper than a Jap + JagCD), why not just play it there and enjoy it there?

If you are all referring to an enhanced remake of the 3DO/Genesis RR on the JagCD just for the sake to see if 20Y+ after the fact it can be made then I am lost.
If someone would remake RR might as well make it as an indie effort on modern hardware so that there's no need to find complex workaround for buggy hardware/subpar sw tooling etc....


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Nov 1, 2015 11:32 AM.


#15 LianneJaguar64 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 12:43 PM

Why?
3DOs/Geneses (with "es" as it seems the accepted plural form of Genesis) are cheap these days (cheaper than a Jap + JagCD), why not just play it there and enjoy it there?

If you are all referring to an enhanced remake of the 3DO/Genesis RR on the JagCD just for the sake to see if 20Y+ after the fact it can be made then I am lost.
If someone would remake RR might as well make it as an indie effort on modern hardware so that there's no need to find complex workaround for buggy hardware/subpar sw tooling etc....


But then this is a forum dedicated to hardware for a 20 year old console... What do you expect? :P

#16 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 1:45 PM

But then this is a forum dedicated to hardware for a 20 year old console... What do you expect? :P

I expect people to talk about the games that exist.

 

Asking for an enhanced port and dreaming how good it would be on another 20Y+ system is a little out there.

Anyone doing it would strictly be a work of love (check Bob arcade ports on the 7800).

If the love is for the game itself, RR in this case or an enhanced version of it, then the platform should be secondary imho.

 

I guess on all old retro forum always there's this thing on "how good it would be on such and such platform, if someone else would port it" which is kind of moot in a way unless you already know someone is porting it. The more complex the game to port the less likely "someone" would port it just because.

The vision of RR from Gunstar looks like is about the game he would like to see so why limit the platform?


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Nov 1, 2015 1:47 PM.


#17 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 3:47 PM

Why?
3DOs/Geneses (with "es" as it seems the accepted plural form of Genesis) are cheap these days (cheaper than a Jap + JagCD), why not just play it there and enjoy it there?

If you are all referring to an enhanced remake of the 3DO/Genesis RR on the JagCD just for the sake to see if 20Y+ after the fact it can be made then I am lost.
If someone would remake RR might as well make it as an indie effort on modern hardware so that there's no need to find complex workaround for buggy hardware/subpar sw tooling etc....

This is a bit hard to explain, but I'll try my best and I'll also use examples outside of the world of video games too. 

partly it's nostalgia, and I don't know how old you are, but nostalgia becomes a stronger emotion as you get older. I like new game systems and having a modern Road Rash on a PS3/4 or XBOX 360/One would be great too. But I like old games and systems just as much as modern ones. But I also like playing new games on old systems, as do many, which is why there even is development for vintage systems. Now, do I want a carbon copy of 3DO Need for Speed on the Jag? Not really, because I do have a 3DO and that game on it, as well as a Genesis and the Road Rash games on it. I Also have RR 3D and RR Jail Break on the PSX and I love playing those version too. I would also like a version or something similar (clone) on the Jaguar. But not just a port, but a new version. Whether it uses the techniques of the 3DO version or Genesis versions, or something different. I like new games on old systems just like I like new games on new systems. They are and were a part of my life, and even playing new games on old systems takes me back, I like the nostalgia of using an old system. 

 

Now lets look at similar concepts in other aspects of life and entertainment. Firstly, newer isn't always better. I love Star Wars, but I did not like the 3 newer movies over the original 3. We got improved special effects, but we also got Jar-jar. I am definitely going to see, and probably enjoy the new Star Wars movie coming out soon too, because it's Star Wars that I have loved since 1977, because it has the original cast in it and because it is a new story with modern special effects. But will I think it's better than the original trilogy? Doubtful. Will it push the original trilogy out of my mind and heart and replace them? Definitely NOT. I will always prefer the older stuff I grew up with. 

I finally got around to watching Mad Max Fury Road on Friday night. I liked it. I thought the special effects were fantastic, I thought the action was fantastic and of course, i thought Charlize Theron was awesome as usual and I always love looking at her. But did I like it better than the original Mad Max and Road Warrior movies? NO. It made me want to watch them all over again. And I'd love to see those movies redone with new special effects like was done with the Star Wars trilogy special editions. This leads back to the Jag and Road Rash; I'd love to see a game like RR on the Jaguar and would love it as much as I do all the other versions ever made.

 

How about life...I'm 47 now and I'd love to be 16 again. But guess what? If I had the choice to be 16 today or to go back to 1984 when I was 16 I'd pick 1984 in a heartbeat...for nostalgia. Or even 26 years old again now or in 1994, but I'd take 1994 over today in a heartbeat. I would want to make different choices and change things, not just live a complete rerun (though I'd accept a complete rerun too, if I didn't remember it all already), but I'd rather live in that day and age at 16 rather than 2015 at 16. Nostalgia. The good old days. friends and family long gone. And even if I am playing a new game on an old system or a port of an old game on an old system, I'd love them just as much, maybe more, than a new Road Rash on a new console.

 

That's about the best I can explain why I'd personally like to see a game like RR on my old Jaguar.


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Nov 1, 2015 4:02 PM.


#18 madman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 4:33 PM

Either way, it's not going to happen so discussion is pretty pointless. It's not like making some of the homebrew we've seen, you're talking about a commercial release for a pretty advanced system. It's not the Xevious port (which I'm looking forward to).



#19 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 5:16 PM

This is a bit hard to explain, but I'll try my best and I'll also use examples outside of the world of video games too. 

partly it's nostalgia,

.....

I like new games on old systems just like I like new games on new systems. They are and were a part of my life, and even playing new games on old systems takes me back, I like the nostalgia of using an old system. 

 

Now lets look at similar concepts in other aspects of life and entertainment. Firstly, newer isn't always better

.....

I finally got around to watching Mad Max Fury Road on Friday night. I liked it. I thought the special effects were fantastic, I thought the action was fantastic and of course, i thought Charlize Theron was awesome as usual and I always love looking at her. But did I like it better than the original Mad Max and Road Warrior movies? NO. It made me want to watch them all over again. And I'd love to see those movies redone with new special effects like was done with the Star Wars trilogy special editions.

 

This leads back to the Jag and Road Rash; I'd love to see a game like RR on the Jaguar and would love it as much as I do all the other versions ever made.

....

 

That's about the best I can explain why I'd personally like to see a game like RR on my old Jaguar.

I get it but I hope you realize nostalgia is for the emotions/memories of games you played with the people you played them with, not the hw itself (or even the games). Also games and entertainment are children of their time, they evolve as do expectations.

 

Unfortunately the analogy with the movies breaks down but if they were to redo the orig Madmax movies with extra effects etc... you wouldn't want them to be made on 25Y+ plus film with the equipment they had 25Y+ ago, I bet you would want them in digital format and 4K/iMax as we are at it etc....etc.... again the analogy breaks down but even if we are talking "remastering" you wouldn't want them to be limited by what was available just 10Y ago, let alone 25Y+.

 

Same for RR. I understand you would want a remake/pump-up of a non-descript version but why does it have to be on an old platform?

I find it hard to grasp the fact that it has to be done on old hardware because the only thing you would add is a challenge due to limited resources, insufficient development tools, hw bugs, non ideal controllers and a horde of other issues that have nothing to do with the objective to have a "remake" with flashier gfx (assuming the fun factor can be transported unabashed). This second part of the exercise in "nostalgia" is what I struggle with a lot in understanding. It's like forcing runners at the Olympics to use caligae (roman shoes) because that's the old way, or force modern football players to wear leather helmets and 25Y+ gear .... 

 

It's been partially done in at least one occasion for the Jag (Flashback comes to mind), not sure what to make of it, it's not that the game was not playable on a plethora of platforms already.


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Nov 1, 2015 5:47 PM.


#20 travistouchdown OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 5:54 PM

Though it might be fun to discuss.  Another World was ported so "never say never."  We all know 8 and 16 bit games can be ported to the Jaguar so why not do the math and speculate whether or not it could handle a game on a 32 bit contemporary that Atari's marketing claimed to be superior to.  Lets email EA and ask for the source code :)



#21 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 6:09 PM

I get it but I hope you realize nostalgia is for the emotions/memories of games you played with the people you played them with, not the hw itself (or even the games). Also games and entertainment are children of their time, they evolve as do expectations.

 

Unfortunately the analogy with the movies breaks down but if they were to redo the orig Madmax movies with extra effects etc... you wouldn't want them to be made on 25Y+ plus film with the equipment they had 25Y+ ago, I bet you would want them in digital format and 4K/iMax as we are at it etc....etc.... again the analogy breaks down but even if we are talking "remastering" you wouldn't want them to be limited by what was available just 10Y ago, let alone 25Y+.

 

Same for RR. I understand you would want a remake/pump-up of a non-descript version but why does it have to be on an old platform?

I find it hard to grasp the fact that it has to be done on old hardware because the only thing you would add is a challenge due to limited resources, insufficient development tools, hw bugs, non ideal controllers and a horde of other issues that have nothing to do with the objective to have a "remake" with flashier gfx (assuming the fun factor can be transported unabashed). This second part of the exercise in "nostalgia" is what I struggle with a lot in understanding. It's like forcing runners at the Olympics to use caligae (roman shoes) because that's the old way, or force modern football players to wear leather helmets and 25Y+ gear .... 

 

It's been partially done in at least one occasion for the Jag (Flashback comes to mind), not sure what to make of it, it's not that the game was not playable on a plethora of platforms already.

I'm sorry if you just don't "get it" but that's not my concern anyway. And it's not JUST nostalgia, but that plays a role. Like I said, it can be hard to explain, which is why you didn't follow my examples well, and frankly, they weren't the best description or examples to explain it, because it is hard to explain. All I know is I like new games on old systems too, maybe the same way people like old games on new systems, hence stuff like XBOX Live arcade with stuff from the 2600 all they way through to the original XBOX. And classic compilation disks etc. Why don't they just do updated remakes of it all instead of offering the originals on a new console? Because people like me like the old stuff, software AND HARDWARE, and playing new stuff on old systems is just as fun for me as new stuff on new systems or old stuff on new systems, etc. Some people just aren't nostalgic either, or don't realize they are because they usually don't look back. My brother always sells or gives away his old systems when he gets new ones, but then when he comes to visit every 5 years or so, he's likee "holy crap! I can't believe you still have this old..." 2600 or Jag or Genesis or whatever, and proceeds to enjoy playing them the entire visit. And he always says he wishes he kept his old such and such consoles, but as soon as the next gen comes along, he still sells or gives away his old system. I keep all mine and continue to enjoy all of mine, with old and new games on them.

 

As far as the movies go, yeah, I'd like to see the old movies updated using modern techniques, but I will also still enjoy watching the original version too, it's different experiences with the familiar. I like the special edition Star Wars movies with updated and added special effects, but I also still own the original versions and I watch both. And what about Abrams' Star Trek movies where he DID use old cameras and stuff to get his unique effects for a new movie with new special effect too. IT IS ALL GOOD, NEW AND OLD AND ALL MIXED TOGETHER, if done right, IMO.

 

Why do people go get vintage muscle cars a modify them with new engines and turbo booster, etc., etc. instead of just buying the modern muscle cars? Or just get the vintage muscle cars and restore them to original condition instead of just getting the modern version? Because old is good too and  because they CAN and it is FUN. Maybe not to you, but everyone is different. 

 

As far as people doing new games on old systems because it's a challenge to see what they can squeeze out of the system or try something that hadn't been done with that system before, yeah, some programmers do it for that reason. But I'm not a programmer and I play their new games merely because they are new games and I enjoy a new experience on my old systems. Even if they aren't "pushing the system" or trying something new on the old, if it's just the same old techniques but a new game or a new game to that system, I will still enjoy it. Don't get it? No one that does get it cares if you don't. But you are still here, in a forum devoted to an obsolete and failed system, aren't you? So why is that?


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Nov 1, 2015 6:23 PM.


#22 phoenixdownita OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 7:34 PM

.....

But you are still here, in a forum devoted to an obsolete and failed system, aren't you? So why is that?

Because after having bought most of the consoles there are out there (except many 8 bits, can't stand them too much) I stumbled on the Jag and apart a handful of interesting exclusives I didn't find that much going on for it and yet a lot of hot air was blown on how capable the system shoulda/woulda/coulda be if only the god of programmers would come down to earth and remake such and such game to prove it ... obviously most of this speculation is done by non programmers.

 

Regarding RR in specific what you envision your preferred remake to be, if it would be made say for another platform (non Jag) would you consider it any less?


Edited by phoenixdownita, Sun Nov 1, 2015 7:51 PM.


#23 Fredifredo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 9:34 PM

Could the source of Road Rash  appear and be ported to the jag without right problems?



#24 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 9:46 PM

.

 

Regarding RR in specific what you envision your preferred remake to be, if it would be made say for another platform (non Jag) would you consider it any less?

No I wouldn't consider it any less. I would like to have a brand new shiny version on the latest consoles or any vintage system I own just as much. But I would still want one for the Jag too, I'll take them all and enjoy all. If they made one for my 8-bit Atari computer or the 7800 I would love to have those versions too. I forgot to mention I also like the 8-bit Sega Master system version as well. I love all versions and all sequels of Road Rash. As well as other games that are on multiple systems of all calibers. Expanding the library of any system I own with unique or ported titles is a plus to me, as long as the games are good, IMO.

 

Counter questions: If a version of Road Rash 3 from the Genesis or 3DO RR had been ported to the Jag 20 years ago, and was as good or better than either of those games, would you get a copy of it for the Jag? And if so, then since you recently got a Jag and it's all kind of new to you, what difference would it make if that game was made for the Jag 20 years ago or recently? Would your answer be different if you have the other systems and versions or not?


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Nov 1, 2015 10:01 PM.


#25 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Nov 1, 2015 9:52 PM

Could the source of Road Rash  appear and be ported to the jag without right problems?

I doubt EA would like it and would probably put up a fuss, but, if the source was changed just enough, with redone graphics and a name change it might sneak by them without a problem. e.g., just using the basic engine of say the Genesis version, since both systems have a 68000 processor this would be the most logical, and if the graphics are changed/enhanced enough and another name like Motorcycle Madness or something was slapped on it. Of course the fuss is usually made by the copyright holders if money is being made off of it. If it was ported and offered as a rom image for free, like CyranoJ has been doing with Atari ST games, then there probably wouldn't be a problem. Some of those ST ports still have active copyrights but I don't see any of them going after CyranoJ over them yet.


Edited by Gunstar, Sun Nov 1, 2015 10:05 PM.






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