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COST OF NEW GAMES? - Blah Blah Woof Woof / CRAP Games


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#1 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 7:59 PM

Would you folks like more games for your hobby that keeps expense down with a Baggy Release and a ROM release later in the $30/$40 range or more games in the $80 range after shipping with a box and all the stuffing?

 

All things being equal. A quality game but with no frills, no box, no manual no overlays or full tilt boogie with everything for twice as much money.

 

I've read a lot of posts from members who voice that they can't afford the full releases any longer especially this year with so many GREAT new Intellivision games. People have exhausted their budgets!

 

Would you have preferred no game at all or having Piggy Bank in a baggy? Do you want something pretty on your shelf, more than a game in the machine? (Seeing that half who ordered have not received the game that might be hard to judge. :-D )

 

I know the really the answer is both, but you can't have both and keep it low cost, not in small numbers at least.

 

I think there is a need for good games that are bare bones so people can risk trying something new. Our team doesn't think we can make money putting out games for a 25 year old console, but we think we can have some fun and not lose anything, except our time and sanity. Dealing in PRINT sucks! That what makes BOXES suck from a cost perspective. It sucks, it sucks releasing CD's or DVD's as much as it does suck in video games. It can cost you $1000 in waste with some stupid mistake.

 

We are very pleased and grateful for all the positive feedback we have received. So thank you everybody. We think Piggy Bank has been a great success.

 

Thoughts?

 

Jay 

Cz Opening Screen-Not-Cropped.png

 



#2 Special Teams OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 8:06 PM

Albert keeps his Atari CIB homebrews in the $45-$50 range (box is an option as cart/manual only are usually $25-$30) and Team Pixelboy and Collectorvision keep their Colecovision CIB homebrews in the $50 range.  That's where I like them.  See if Rev can print up a run of 50 boxes for your releases when he does his other boxes and offer people a choice.



#3 Hyperboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 8:13 PM

I prefer CIB and $45-$50 is cool with me. I think that Al offering both a cart/manual and CIB option for a good selection of the homebrews is way cool. The choice is yours :)

#4 grips03 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 8:21 PM

I like cart only and lower price.



#5 save2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 8:32 PM

+1 for Baggie releases. Don't always need or want a box, besides... that's how some of us bought our Intv games BITD. Long live the Baggie! :lol:

(Of course, having a choice of which version to purchase is tops)

#6 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 8:43 PM

Much bigger group of Atari users than there are Intellivision. There always were. So by the economy of scale Al has a much better chance of getting better pricing. I haven't looked at what Al's shipping cost is. Also CIB in the Intellivision world includes overlays as well.

 

Rev is doing a pretty job with keeping cost around $50 to $60 + shipping. Rev has talked to me about "bundling" and it is something I will look at in the future.

 

We were able to include game and shipping at $40 and may be able to cut that in future releases.



#7 fdr4prez OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 8:45 PM

Shouldn't the release of the LTO Flash help some?  Wasn't there talk in the threads about it having a DRM type of support, so that can help with ROM only sales being inexpensive for people that just want a no fluff release.

 

So there could be many different release levels: LTO Flash ROM, Cart only, Cart/Manual/Overlay, and the whole shebang > ROM/CART/Manual/Overlay/Box

 

I am also more comfortable in the $50 range for a full CIB release with manual and overlays, but with many releases in one year even that would tax my budget.  If only the homebrew releases weren't made and sold out so quickly.  There is always talk of doing additional runs in the future, but how often does this really occur?

 

I am not sure if this is happening, but if all the people releasing games can join together and use the same box/printing company, the same circuit board shop, and the same overlay company (I know this doesn't exist), but then there would be more leverage for lower costs from the suppliers due to more constant/repeat business.



#8 the1hatman OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 9:15 PM

I would vote for cart only since I can make my own boxes and overlays but even I admit that a full release is what 99% of collectors want. If I wasn't on the poor side I'm sure I would be in the full release camp as well but I have thoroughly enjoyed playing the hell out of my copy of Piggy Bank and consider the $40 spent on what is my first ever homebrew to be a steal. A box simply has no effect on the amount of fun you get from playing a new game on a classic system. Though at only 1 game, mine is a tiny sample size for such an opinion.



#9 Games For Your Intellivision OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 9:18 PM

BBWW, ....Printing is darn expensive, as you know. If you do quality printing, even more so. The price of a large number (500 to 1000) is virtually the same as printing 1, so there is no savings by 'only printing 50'. Of course, there is digital printing that can save you some money for fewer copies, but even at $10 a box, 50 is 500 dollars. And, then the quality isn't quite the same.

 

Some people don't understand how the pricing of printing works and if you do a 'CIB' release, there will be some people who will ask you to discard the box (you've still paid for it) and ask for a discount.

 

The 'Old School' release worked out really well in my opinion. It was sold 'cart only' and I had no intention of doing a box. However, enough people expressed interest in the box that one was done. Upgrade kits were bought for those who wanted a full CIB release and people who wanted the full CIB purchased it when it came out. Those who wanted cart only got it cheaper. It works well because the programmer can get paid with the original cart only release and then if and only if there is enough interest, the packaging can pay for itself.

 

Of course, people who just want to play the game on real hardware and don't care about 'collecting' a complete game might be happy with just playing the rom on the soon to be released LTO Flash! 



#10 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 9:39 PM

William, as a musician singer/songwriter ( www.jayhowlett.com/music ) I face the same thing when making 300 CDs or 2000 CDs. As a media company we have many clients who only need 100 copies. It won't be for downloading, won't need a barcode for online sales and it can be done in Duplication not Replication. What the clients don't understand sometimes, is that the cost of design and mastering is the same for 100 copies or 1000.

 

Getting the media ready in many ways is easier than the Printing of the Disc and the CD art and info.

 

This is what makes a small release like this for a relatively small market viable for "insurgent" projects as a Baggie release but not really viable for a full blown CIB Glossy Box, color instructions and overlays. 

 

While in my music world selling 1000 CD's is very doable in a two year period. If I made 1000 Piggy Banks, it would last my lifetime. LOL Digital Print has a place in insurgent releases and might be in the end more cost effective for a larger release as well. Offset printing is by far the best look. In CD art I think there are a few more options to make digital printing cost effective especially if you design for it. Finding ways to use a "less than ideal" method to an advantage. A Retro Look for a Retro Game.

 

If I had my way I'd go lenticular! :-)

 

The community here is very vibrant and has room for many levels of production. I buy pretty much two or three of any game released. I watched Old School and upgraded one and bought a sealed one or two. I agree that was a very nice way to handle the needs of the many. Hat's off for that.


Edited by BBWW, Fri Nov 6, 2015 9:41 PM.


#11 Rev ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:25 PM

Much bigger group of Atari users than there are Intellivision. There always were. So by the economy of scale Al has a much better chance of getting better pricing. I haven't looked at what Al's shipping cost is. Also CIB in the Intellivision world includes overlays as well.

 

Rev is doing a pretty job with keeping cost around $50 to $60 + shipping. Rev has talked to me about "bundling" and it is something I will look at in the future.

 

We were able to include game and shipping at $40 and may be able to cut that in future releases.

 

My research on my own revealed Intellivision sells the most homebrews out of the olders systems as an average.   Maybe someone can correct me. I dont know about NES and newer.

 

I think i sold Mouse Trap CBS at 60?  I forget now actually.  Others have been either 50 or 55.       I will recalculate the costs and see if I can lower the price for CIB to 50 or lower?    Only a few more Mattel games to go and all my releases will be newly programmed. I am pretty certain even then I wont go over 55 for CIB. 



#12 wolfy62 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:40 PM

I love to collect my games complete in box because I am fortunate enough to be able to put enough $ aside to do so.I will buy them when I see them for sure.

 

Yet, if a game is made in cart or cart and baggy form only, I will purchase that as well for the Intellivision.

 

I would prefer to have a physical something as a collector. I have multi carts for other system, but if Intellvision goes mostly ROM format via flashcart I feel it defeats my collecting for it, as it is the only system I collect complete boxed games for.

 

Even going to cartridges and baggies is kind of a stretch for me but it is certainly better than never seeing those games.   So torn here....aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.....although I do want the flash cart because that box looks cool!

 

I understand the need for many to get a flash cart and most of the games in ROM form due to the expense of most older Intellivision games. Totally get it!



#13 Rev ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:41 PM

A box simply has no effect on the amount of fun you get from playing a new game on a classic system. 

 

Maybe not from playing, but a box to me is part of the whole experience. reading it, checking out screen shots and reminiscing about the good old days.   But thats just me. 



#14 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:43 PM

Yes both William and Rev have invited me to share printing runs to reduce costs, that is a very cool thing in the community. The only drawback to that is games would come out even closer together. LOL

 

I generally don't mind the higher prices, especially now after being part of Piggy Bank. LOL This is a labor of love and works best when it is fun in my case. I'm much more serious about music...though not as much as I should be...



#15 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:47 PM

 

Maybe not from playing, but a box to me is part of the whole experience. reading it, checking out screen shots and reminiscing about the good old days.   But thats just me. 

 

Yeah my game shelf looks pretty sweet. Still missing the elusive League of Light and Robot Rubble.  Rev we need a sequel to that called Robot Rumble. Would love a INTV version of "Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots"!  Sort of a close up, in your face, waist up boxing thing. "Robots Lets get ready to Rumble!"


Edited by BBWW, Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:51 PM.


#16 Rev ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:52 PM

 

Yeah my game shelf looks pretty sweet. Still missing the elusive League of Light and Robot Rubble.  Rev we need a sequel to that called Robot Rumble. Would love a INTV version of "Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots"!  Sort of a close up, in your fast, waist up boxing thing. "Robots Lets get ready to Rumble!"

 

Sounds cool, but its not on "the list",   haha  



#17 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 10:55 PM

That's good because every time I'm on a list the FBI knocks on my door. Been that way since high school. 

 

 

 

Sounds cool, but its not on "the list",   haha  



#18 Eric7100 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 11:05 PM

If only the homebrew releases weren't made and sold out so quickly.

 

This.  1,000,000% this.

 

All of you homebrew releasers... take a lesson from this guy.


Edited by Eric7100, Fri Nov 6, 2015 11:05 PM.


#19 KylJoy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 11:07 PM

I want box, manual, overlays and nice cart with nice label - CIB.  BUT...  It's all about the game and playing it.  So, I could live with cart only.

 

Also, whatever is released is what I collect.  Not EVERY deviation, but the original release and this is up to my interpretations and what I want in my collection.  So, if it is released as cart only then I collect cart only.  If a box comes out I'll get the box.  I won't have missed anything in my collection since there wasn't anything else to collect!

 

Releasing the separate components in waves complicates it for me, especially if a CIB comes out later.

 

I have the original Old School cart and the upgrade kit.  I never combined them since they are two pieces of my collection (the upgrade kit was sealed).  I wouldn't mind having the CIB too.  I see them as 3 separate pieces and for a collector like me a CIB release that came out first would mean I'd only need to have the CIB in my collection and would save me money since I wouldn't need all of these chunks as they are released.  Yes, I buy the ROMs too.  Would love it if the CIB came out and the ROM was free if you bought that.



#20 freewheel OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2015 11:54 PM

Shouldn't the release of the LTO Flash help some?  Wasn't there talk in the threads about it having a DRM type of support, so that can help with ROM only sales being inexpensive for people that just want a no fluff release.

 

It really should, and the DRM support really isn't that much of a factor. The people willing to do baggie-only releases (or even less-frills ROM releases) don't tend to be the ones that are all that concerned with turning this into a lucrative business. It's all about the fun, not the profit. I think (at least I hope) that you'll see quite a lot of ROM activity once we see the new flash carts out there. Worst case I'll help people fill up their carts with half-complete crappy demos :D
 

 

 If only the homebrew releases weren't made and sold out so quickly.  There is always talk of doing additional runs in the future, but how often does this really occur?

 

Yeah :( It's really a shame, too - but again when it comes to CIB, it's just not worth it to release an additional 10 or 20 copies. I'm surprised that some games haven't seen a cart-only second run, but people are busy and even that is a lot of work.

 

 

I am not sure if this is happening, but if all the people releasing games can join together and use the same box/printing company, the same circuit board shop, and the same overlay company (I know this doesn't exist), but then there would be more leverage for lower costs from the suppliers due to more constant/repeat business.

 

It's kinda-sorta happening, but nowhere near the scale it needs to happen in order to make this more affordable for everyone. There's ego involved. There are ethical differences of opinion. Legal issues. Practical and logistical issues. And did I mention ego? Like all good hobbies, we have our share of "personalities" and sometimes the herding of the cats is too much effort.

 

We can't even get a single cart supply, and there are at least 3 active sources for that that I'm aware of, plus at least 2 more in the works. Now add every other component into the mix and it just ain't ever gonna happen until people start singing Kumbaya.



#21 freewheel OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:08 AM

 

This.  1,000,000% this.

 

All of you homebrew releasers... take a lesson from this guy.

 

We (as a community) are our own worst enemy.

 

If you release a cart in quantities that guarantee it selling out, you make enemies. People complain that they didn't know about it, couldn't afford it, wanted 3 copies but could only get one, there are too many games coming out at the same time, name a possibility and someone complains.

 

Yet if you release a cart in higher quantities, you run the risk of ending up with a bunch of unsold junk that, let's face it, isn't ever going anywhere. This market will likely never grow beyond what it is unless we figure out a way to sell games for less than half of what we do today. You could discount those last few copies to try to cut your losses, but then someone will inevitably complain that you're "ruining the collectible value" of their previously purchased copy(ies). Or that you're "flooding the market with obviously inferior product". (Both are verbatim quotes that I've read on more than one occasion in hobbies such as this, btw)

 

And don't underestimate just how bad the losses can be: if you make $10 profit on a copy (which is probably pretty generous for some CIB releases), and you're selling them for $50 - that's 4 copies you need to sell just to break even on every copy that's left sitting around. Which means that if you end up with more than 20% of your original stock unsold, YOU LOSE MONEY.  That is an incredibly risky proposition for any business to take on. Try to counter the losses from unsold copies in advance, ie: raise your profit margin, and people complain that you're overcharging. If multiple producers do this? Suddenly the people who think life ends if they don't own 2 copies of every single game ever released call you Hitler because it's impossible to keep up with the hobby.

 

Most games are going to be released just below the expected level of demand, because no one in this business is running a charity, and it's impossible to predict the exact number in advance. If demand ends up much higher than expected... things get awkward.

 

And if producers started doing pre-sale only, so that the exact demand could be met? OHH BOY would we have trouble.

 

There's no way to win.
 



#22 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:09 AM



#23 Eric7100 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:21 AM

I'm surprised that some games haven't seen a cart-only second run, but people are busy and even that is a lot of work.

 

Well, maybe people need to un-busy themselves.  There's the answer.


Edited by Eric7100, Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:21 AM.


#24 BBWW OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:33 AM

 

We (as a community) are our own worst enemy.

 

 

Most games are going to be released just below the expected level of demand, because no one in this business is running a charity, and it's impossible to predict the exact number in advance. If demand ends up much higher than expected... things get awkward.

 

 

We are a consumer based world. Short shelf life is inevitable. Part of the fun of doing Piggy Bank was doing things like "a torch and pitchfork" level, making fun of us. Having "Top Gougers" instead of Top Scorers. Top Gouger on the screen is Weasel. Putting mentions of things we talk about like Bacon, Snow Levels all made it fun to do. None of use involved did this to make money. That said we don't want to lose money either. We did that when we bought Spiker. :-) But it was a narrow focus toward our community and not sure if it will play outside of it.

 

Getting this game done in 4 weeks and making jokes about it and myself made it fun. I think the fun came through. I don't think I'd want to do this again in 4 weeks but the challenge of doing something more than what was expected I think brought out the best of the teams efforts.

 

We all want what we want and sometimes we get it and sometimes we don't.

 

I will try to keep Piggy going for another couple of months but like recording my CDs. When I finish one, I am on to the next project. The difference is I can get a 6 Panel Full Color package with a full color print on the CD, shrink wrapped and retail ready with 1000 units for $749.00. Now the time to record it, the musicians who helped me, the studio time the mix and master and the hours of writing to come up with 10 songs worth listening to...well, that's what I do.

 

ROM only will be an interesting thing to watch. I think we'll get some great games that way and I think we'll have a lot of games that won't get played. Really how many of us listen to all 10,000 songs in our iTunes Library.

 

I forgot what my point was...

 

 

At some point it will all be emulation as the old machines die...ROM's will be the history that remains.



#25 intvnut OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2015 12:42 AM

 

Well, maybe people need to un-busy themselves.  There's the answer.

 

Heheheh.  Well, given I just quit my job for that reason... I find a certain resonance with the idea.  :D

 

Not that my new job won't keep me busy; however, I have a feeling where I'm going isn't exactly short staffed and I'll feel like I can take my foot off the gas from time to time and work on my hobbies again.






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