jhd Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 As shown in the article, the Coco has all four arrow keys, but in two separate locations, spaced widely apart. I am a bit surprised that the Odyssey 2 did not make the list; or was that really considered a game console, given that no other types of software were ever released for it? (The Computer Intro! cartridge notwithstanding.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yeah, O2 keyboard just for entering names or selecting games. Too bad it wasn't widely used for much of anything else. Imagine if a BASIC cartridge with data cassette lead had been released. System sold fairly wel... Philips/Magnavox would have had a major and early shoe-in (inexpensive no less!) to the home computing market. Hell, even the Bally machine didn't drop the ball in that regard. Besides expecting you to type programs in using that little keypad. And there we have it... absolute worst "keyboard" ever. Makes the TS-1000 seem luxurious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Missing the ZX Spectrum keyboard, one of the worst in the world, and maybe the Creativision, but on the other hand, that one was quite innovative. No, it's not missing. The reasons why it's not there was clearly explained both in the article and on here, plus it was in fact technically mentioned in the Timex Sinclair 2068 entry. Even though I have several Creativisions, I chose not to include that because it was never sold in North America and it required optional add-ons to make it function like a computer. I preferred to use the 12 slots for systems that were computers out of the box and actually sold in North America. It was the best way to constrain the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 As shown in the article, the Coco has all four arrow keys, but in two separate locations, spaced widely apart. I am a bit surprised that the Odyssey 2 did not make the list; or was that really considered a game console, given that no other types of software were ever released for it? (The Computer Intro! cartridge notwithstanding.) Yeah, O2 keyboard just for entering names or selecting games. Too bad it wasn't widely used for much of anything else. Imagine if a BASIC cartridge with data cassette lead had been released. System sold fairly wel... Philips/Magnavox would have had a major and early shoe-in (inexpensive no less!) to the home computing market. Hell, even the Bally machine didn't drop the ball in that regard. Besides expecting you to type programs in using that little keypad. And there we have it... absolute worst "keyboard" ever. Makes the TS-1000 seem luxurious. The Odyssey2 did have the Computer Intro! cartridge, which actually was rather good (light years better than the Atari 2600 BASIC cartridge), although it had the obvious disadvantage of not being able to save (or load) your or other creations, so it doesn't quite fit my definition of computer. The C7420 add-on did actually turn the Odyssey2 platform into a real computer system, but it only worked on the European Videopac+ and Jopac consoles. I'd love to track one down for my Videopac+, but they're quite hard to find and quite expensive when you do (there was also a chess module released for the European models, which I do have). On a side note, I've actually been able to touch type rather well on the Odyssey2's keyboard. Unlike the similar keyboard design on the ZX80/81/Sinclair 1000, the extra real estate makes for a big jump in usability. The Astrocade (or Bally Home Library Computer) was actually something I seriously considered including, since it was able to be turned into a computer that could create/save/load programs, but I decided against it. I stuck with systems that were computers straight out of the box, with no additional add-ons required (technically systems like the VideoBrain didn't meet that criteria out of the box, but it was still primarily sold as a computer rather than a videogame system, and I've always been fascinated by the platform and keyboard, so I let that one slide a bit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Bill, do you have an US sold Commodore 116? I gather its rubber keyboard was equal or probably worse than e.g. ZX Spectrum rubber keyboards. I know the 116 is more common in Europe, so again it'd break the rule of being US sold if you had an back-imported European 116. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Bill, do you have an US sold Commodore 116? I gather its rubber keyboard was equal or probably worse than e.g. ZX Spectrum rubber keyboards. I know the 116 is more common in Europe, so again it'd break the rule of being US sold if you had an back-imported European 116. You know, I forgot about the 116, which renders my Commodore MAX comment incorrect. It was, however, only sold in Europe, so it wouldn't have been included anyway. No, I don't have a 116 in my collection, just American and European C-16s and Plus/4s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPA5 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 The original Atari 400 truly did have a terrible keyboard. I'm eternally thankful the previous owner of the 400 I currently own installed the 800 keyboard. When I was a kid, the 400 my dad had setup in my room was cursed with the membrane keyboard, and I certainly recall the pain of trying to type away on that weird surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebulon Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Worst thing about some old keyboards were the lack of the PC-style arrow keys in the "half-plus" setup we all have today. The C64 had only two arrows and then some stupid shift key to alternate directions. It just didn't work like the PC one did. Keyboards were one thing PCs did right back in the day. Also, I know that flat, membrane keyboards like the Atari 400 sucked, but in retrospect, I think these were really designed for kids in mind, and I think for kids they work just fine. Safer against spills, and a kid is basically just going to be using it to select options and stuff in games and software. Not typing an essay or writing a program. For that anyone with brains would have gotten an 800 or a computer with a real keyboard. I recall keyboard quality being the make and break of purchasing deals back in the day. It sounds absurd, but people would actually say, "The PC/AT keyboard is good. We'll buy a PC" Even IBM learned their lesson with the PCjr keyboard. Suddenly, it was back to the 101-key AT board layout. Note: I'm not a big fan of the square low-rise keys on computers today (especially on laptops). I sure hope that trend ends in a hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Note: I'm not a big fan of the square low-rise keys on computers today (especially on laptops). I sure hope that trend ends in a hurry. I'm actually quite impressed by the quality of the keyboard in the Surface Pro 4 Type Cover (I use it on my Surface Pro 3). It's obviously not as good as a full-sized mechanical keyboard like I use on my desktops, but it's definitely a pleasant typing experience. It just goes to show that even with absolutely minimal real estate, you can come up with an effective solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I do believe there was a miniscule release of NTSC Commodore 116, but those would be hen's teeth to find. If I'm not mistaken, Bill D has one. I still can't fathom how ordering a completely different keyboard mechanism could've been cost saving for Commodore compared to installing a full travel keyboard from Mitsumi of which they were already selling millions. Yes, case dimensions and weight pay importance to manufacturing and distribution costs, but still I had expected a company buying so large volumes must got a very good discount compared to a newcomer who would buy small quantities from Mitsumi. Yet of course there was a reason why so many other manufacturers went with membrane keyboards, either touch or rubber keys, but I chalked it down to the fact they didn't have discounts to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I do believe there was a miniscule release of NTSC Commodore 116, but those would be hen's teeth to find. If anything, I imagine it was a prototype. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opry99er Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Having typed on a bunch of classic keyboards, I have to say the Atari 400 was definitely one of the absolute worst... The 99/4 was bad. The /4A is still my favorite keyboard and I wish I could use it as a keyboard on my PC. Lack of specialty keys makes that one a toughie though. Good list Bill!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClausB Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Once again, I'll defend the 400's keyboard. The raised edges give you feel for the keys and the speaker provides audible and even tactile feedback. To type you should lightly feel each key then firmly push, rather than poke at the keys. I'll even defend the ZX81 some. While its keyboard lacks the redeeming features of the 400's, the one-stroke keywords helped a lot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkO Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Once again, I'll defend the 400's keyboard. The raised edges give you feel for the keys and the speaker provides audible and even tactile feedback. To type you should lightly feel each key then firmly push, rather than poke at the keys. I'll even defend the ZX81 some. While its keyboard lacks the redeeming features of the 400's, the one-stroke keywords helped a lot. I found the ZX-81 Adequate... The One-Stroke keywords made it fairly quick to enter programs, unless there was lots of text to type.. I was 16 at the time. MarkO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Ragan Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Ha! I saw that Panasonic system at a thrift store a long time ago! I didn't buy it, 'cuz I wasn't sure if it was compatible with anything. (Apparently, it wasn't.) Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 The C64 had only two arrows and then some stupid shift key to alternate directions. IMO the C64 keyboard layout was pretty nice, I got used to the cursor keys. But the overall quality wasn't great. After a while several keys did not work reliable any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 IMO the C64 keyboard layout was pretty nice, I got used to the cursor keys. But the overall quality wasn't great. After a while several keys did not work reliable any more. I like the feel of the Plus/4 keyboard better. If only they hadn't used such odd keys for the arrows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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