MiniPro TL866 Upgrade Instructions

[+kheller2]

 

In Britain at least there is a serious price differential between the 'CS' and 'A' model - something like £36 for the former and £55+ for the latter. This is especially cynical because the circuit board and case are identical. The only difference between the two is a shiny sticker on the bottom and the firmware written on to the EEPROM inside.

 

 

Something doesn't set right with me about that statement. I feel the above doesn't hold much legal weight given the fact you ARE buying the A model's firmware, sticker and pin header, when you spend that extra 55+ . Technically you are cracking a device to give you access to features not present/enabled in the model you did purchase.

 

I'm not saying not to do it, or to do. I'm just saying using the above justification is a little one sided and self serving. An analogy would be capacity on demand for servers: I purchased the use of 20 CPUs but the device came with 40 and they charge me so much more for those extra ones, so why not just buy the 20 and flip a bit to turn the other 20 on. its the same circuit board, the cases are identical, the only difference is the firmware that checks for a license.

[morelenmir]

 

Something doesn't set right with me about that statement. I feel the above doesn't hold much legal weight given the fact you ARE buying the A model's firmware, sticker and pin header, when you spend that extra 55+ . Technically you are cracking a device to give you access to features not present/enabled in the model you did purchase.

 

I'm not saying not to do it, or to do. I'm just saying using the above justification is a little one sided and self serving. An analogy would be capacity on demand for servers: I purchased the use of 20 CPUs but the device came with 40 and they charge me so much more for those extra ones, so why not just buy the 20 and flip a bit to turn the other 20 on. its the same circuit board, the cases are identical, the only difference is the firmware that checks for a license.

 

I can certainly see what you are saying. However I think it is morally repugnant to charge an extra £30 for uncrippling an identical system you have deliberately crippled in the first place. Your sever analogy is a good one - and I think that is unfair as well. As you say; why not flip the switch? I do not think any of these pieces of bloated corporate technology are worth paying money for - I hugely support the old model put forth in the 'Cathedral and the Bazaar' where you pay nothing for the software and pay instead for quality support. Only the modern equivalent of artisans and craftsmen like Candle, Lotharek and FJC along with the other scene members produce items I am willing to pay a premium for.

 

Put basically I do not think the TL633CS is worth the money for its feature set at £30 and it is certainly not worth £60. With ICSP it is starting to be reasonable at the lower price. This way the dude gets at least some money from me, whereas I would simply not have bought anything at all if it were not possible to cross flash.

Edited June 23, 2016 by morelenmir

[phoenixdownita]

 

... you pay nothing for the software and pay instead for quality support.....

 

Except that someone must be making the SW in the first place and they need to get paid because usually someone else is always willing to undercut you in support costs.

 

Even Linus himself gets paid by the foundation quite handsomely, or he would have been snapped already by the likes of Google/Apple/etc.... with a contracts in the 10M$ per year. And yes he doesn't charge for his work on supporting Linux but he's getting paid nonetheless so he doesn't have to.

 

Back to the 866 Nothing wrong in self upgrading the FW, the fact that different SKUs are marketed with the same underlying HW has to do with market segmentation (not everyone needs/wants the full kaboodle) and support costs (a simpler FW should require less maintenance if something goes wrong).

In the late 90s Intel let people overclock their CPUs then it kind of stopped for a while as everyone was overclocking but stability was getting .. meh, and people were paying for an OC as if it was the fully one (which BTW goes thru a different burn in testing phase among other things and is guaranteed to work at the stated specs).

 

So all of the avenues are available, but if upgrading one of the 866 CS to A fails nobody is to blame, if tomorrow the company stops supporting that path it's their rights and maybe they do so because they don't get the extra money for the extra features anymore ..... not saying it is the case, just saying it may well become the case.

 

The only "legal" difference comes down to voiding the warranty or not, if you care, that's pretty much it .... but I doubt these products have a warranty to begin with so hack at it if you feel like it or pay for the more expensive version (or someone else to hack for you which will normally pocket somewhere in between the difference in price).

 

I am not sure that having a copy of the 866A FW without the related HW purchase is legal in on itself, not sure what the company making thrm stance is wrt to that, it is their SW after all.

 

On another note about only paying for support and not SW .... what about games?

[Timothy Kline]

 

I can certainly see what you are saying. However I think it is morally repugnant to charge an extra £30 for uncrippling an identical system you have deliberately crippled in the first place. Your sever analogy is a good one - and I think that is unfair as well. As you say; why not flip the switch? I do not think any of these pieces of bloated corporate technology are worth paying money for - I hugely support the old model put forth in the 'Cathedral and the Bazaar' where you pay nothing for the software and pay instead for quality support. Only the modern equivalent of artisans and craftsmen like Candle, Lotharek and FJC along with the other scene members produce items I am willing to pay a premium for.

 

Put basically I do not think the TL633CS is worth the money for its feature set at £30 and it is certainly not worth £60. With ICSP it is starting to be reasonable at the lower price. This way the dude gets at least some money from me, whereas I would simply not have bought anything at all if it were not possible to cross flash.

 

I'm inclined to agree.

 

By this same logic, we really have no business modifying any Atari computer. No more restoring the 5v line on a 1200xl, for example. No more restoring incomplete video circuits. Nothing. Too bad. Should've bought the Atari that had the connections.

 

--Tim

Edited June 23, 2016 by Timothy Kline

[flashjazzcat]

Well, I used to stick bits of wire into type 7 motherboard sockets to unlock the FSB on Durons. I figure if the customer bought something and is prepared to void the warranty or outright destroy a device by opening it up and modding it, then have at it. The firmware is potentially a different matter (assuming there are no "terms of usage" regarding the hardware itself), however, since the license may only permit running it on the device for which it was intended. Then again, after the device is modded, perhaps it technically is the device for which the firmware was intended. I mean, using the Atari analogy, if you take a 65XE based on the 130XE motherboard and then populate the extra RAM sockets yourself and then add the EXTMMU, is what you have (aside from the casing) then not a 130XE? And can you then run the 130XE version of AtariWriter Plus on it without infringing the EULA?

[morelenmir]

Except that someone must be making the SW in the first place and they need to get paid because usually someone else is always willing to undercut you in support costs.

 

Even Linus himself gets paid by the foundation quite handsomely, or he would have been snapped already by the likes of Google/Apple/etc.... with a contracts in the 10M$ per year. And yes he doesn't charge for his work on supporting Linux but he's getting paid nonetheless so he doesn't have to.

 

Back to the 866 Nothing wrong in self upgrading the FW, the fact that different SKUs are marketed with the same underlying HW has to do with market segmentation (not everyone needs/wants the full kaboodle) and support costs (a simpler FW should require less maintenance if something goes wrong).

In the late 90s Intel let people overclock their CPUs then it kind of stopped for a while as everyone was overclocking but stability was getting .. meh, and people were paying for an OC as if it was the fully one (which BTW goes thru a different burn in testing phase among other things and is guaranteed to work at the stated specs).

 

So all of the avenues are available, but if upgrading one of the 866 CS to A fails nobody is to blame, if tomorrow the company stops supporting that path it's their rights and maybe they do so because they don't get the extra money for the extra features anymore ..... not saying it is the case, just saying it may well become the case.

 

The only "legal" difference comes down to voiding the warranty or not, if you care, that's pretty much it .... but I doubt these products have a warranty to begin with so hack at it if you feel like it or pay for the more expensive version (or someone else to hack for you which will normally pocket somewhere in between the difference in price).

 

I am not sure that having a copy of the 866A FW without the related HW purchase is legal in on itself, not sure what the company making thrm stance is wrt to that, it is their SW after all.

 

On another note about only paying for support and not SW .... what about games?

 

These are really interesting questions you put forward! I'm afraid my sympathies are totally with the consumer though. I appreciate businesses have these concern, but I'm not a businessman and have been screwed over too many times or been treated to arrogance from their side of the aisle too often to feel too much worry about my own on this side. At the end of the day, this thing cost again roughly £30. In comparison a Lotharek VBXE costs nearly a £100 after postage. However I am many times more willing to buy the VBXE - and have done! - because I know Lotharek is a conscientious craftsman who I have spoken to many times and appreciate the effort he puts in to his products with his own hands. He delivers quality. I am buying the modern equivalent of... I don't know - say a chest of drawers from the local cabinet in my village instead of going down to London and buying something from Liberty's; to torture a Victorian metaphor.

 

Now if it turns out this Chinese company are as conscientious, care about their customers and have an equal degree of craftsmanship in their writers I would began to feel more sympathy. However the very fact they deliberately crippled a device so they could charge more to uncripple it counts very, very heavily against them. That degree of cynicism is unforgivable. I am sure there are management and business terms to justify it, but I can just as facilely defend swapping out the firmware on my side of the deal.

 

But, all that said; for £30 - once crossflashed - one does get a very solid, extremely useful device. And I would recommend anyone purchase it at that price.

 

This actually touches on the wider matter of 'modding' in general. I find the fact Microsoft, for instance can attempt to make it illegal for a consumer to fit a mod chip to his xbox in order to run XBMC is... insane.

[+kheller2]

Well, I used to stick bits of wire into type 7 motherboard sockets to unlock the FSB on Durons. I figure if the customer bought something and is prepared to void the warranty or outright destroy a device by opening it up and modding it, then have at it. The firmware is potentially a different matter (assuming there are no "terms of usage" regarding the hardware itself), however, since the license may only permit running it on the device for which it was intended. Then again, after the device is modded, perhaps it technically is the device for which the firmware was intended. I mean, using the Atari analogy, if you take a 65XE based on the 130XE motherboard and then populate the extra RAM sockets yourself and then add the EXTMMU, is what you have (aside from the casing) then not a 130XE? And can you then run the 130XE version of AtariWriter Plus on it without infringing the EULA?

 

 

That isn't exactly the same. The equivalent might be that you purchased a 65XE knowing in advance that it already came with the extra RAM and an EMMU and all you needed to do was get someone to flash you a 130XE rom and drop it in (the idea being that the 65XE ROM was written in such a way as to forcibly not recognize the extra 64K).

 

Of course if there were true, I would be the first in line to buy a few dozen.. But thats me. And thinking about this more, I think it all comes down to your intent. For example, I purchased the 866CS because thats all I needed. I didn't purchase the CS because I knew I could make it an A and that was what I really needed and it would save me money.

 

I didn't mean to derail this topic. I have flashed my 866CS to an A. Nothing to do with my needing it, it simply was done because I could.

 

The comment about deliberately crippling said device also seems far fetched. Many systems use a universal board w or w/o some missing components. It isn't like they produced boards then ripped out said components, they were never installed in the first place.

Edited June 23, 2016 by kheller2

[+Schmitzi]

 

I can certainly see what you are saying. However I think it is morally repugnant to charge an extra £30 for uncrippling an identical system you have deliberately crippled in the first place. Your sever analogy is a good one - and I think that is unfair as well. As you say; why not flip the switch? I do not think any of these pieces of bloated corporate technology are worth paying money for - I hugely support the old model put forth in the 'Cathedral and the Bazaar' where you pay nothing for the software and pay instead for quality support. Only the modern equivalent of artisans and craftsmen like Candle, Lotharek and FJC along with the other scene members produce items I am willing to pay a premium for.

 

Put basically I do not think the TL633CS is worth the money for its feature set at £30 and it is certainly not worth £60. With ICSP it is starting to be reasonable at the lower price. This way the dude gets at least some money from me, whereas I would simply not have bought anything at all if it were not possible to cross flash.

.

.

.

hmm, I think it is "morally repugnant" to take more than you have payed for. They´ve developed and maintain a today´s good product,

and they have there pricing-model, their policy. Accept it or leave it, but do not cheat them. They live from it, today.

Doing and using this "mod" silently at home >maybe< is one thing, publishing how-to´s is another.

Same as buying Windows-Home and then using as Windows-Ultimate, or so. Piracy from my point of view.

And what do you think M$ would do if they know about ?

 

Modding an Atari today, i.e. with this 5V-thing (whatever it is or means) is a totally different thing,

as these consoles are no longer produced an sold for decades.

So you don´t save money on doing so, and nobody feels cheated, of course.

 

But the Eprommer is a today´s product, where good people have done and are doing much efforts and work on,

and have to have their income from their work. Today.

 

xXx

[morelenmir]

.

.

.

hmm, I think it is "morally repugnant" to take more than you have payed for. They´ve developed and maintain a today´s good product,

and they have there pricing-model, their policy. Accept it or leave it, but do not cheat them. They live from it, today.

Doing and using this "mod" silently at home >maybe< is one thing, publishing how-to´s is another.

Same as buying Windows-Home and then using as Windows-Ultimate, or so. Piracy from my point of view.

And what do you think M$ would do if they know about ?

 

Modding an Atari today, i.e. with this 5V-thing (whatever it is or means) is a totally different thing,

as these consoles are no longer produced an sold for decades.

So you don´t save money on doing so, and nobody feels cheated, of course.

 

But the Eprommer is a product from today, where good people have done and are doing much efforts and work on,

and have to have their income from their work. Today.

 

xXx

 

That's also a reasonable point - I don't agree, but I know where you are coming from. You won't be surprized to learn I find the 'piracy' argument largely nonsense as well!

Edited June 23, 2016 by morelenmir

[+Schmitzi]

Yes, I am coming from the bright side of life.

[morelenmir]

Yes, I am coming from the bright side of life.

 

Okay dude. We disagree. That doesn't mean we need to start taking digs at each other.

[+Schmitzi]

no, of course not.

 

But I was irretated that they should be "morally repugnant"

[+Schmitzi]

[morelenmir]

no, of course not.

 

But I was highly irretated that they are "morally repugnant"

 

I can understand your point of view schmizi - I don't share it but I genuinely do get what you mean.

 

No worries!!!

[morelenmir]

 

OT TI-99 discussion moved to PM.

Edited June 23, 2016 by morelenmir

[Timothy Kline]

Schmitzi, you wrote:

hmm, I think it is "morally repugnant" to take more than you have payed for. They´ve developed and maintain a today´s good product,
and they have there pricing-model, their policy. Accept it or leave it, but do not cheat them. They live from it, today.

Is it "morally repugnant" for a company or corporation to pay sub-poverty level wages to earn significant profits which are retained by the elite of that company or corporation? Part of your position is that "they" live from it, today. Who are "they"? Surely it isn't the workers who have to piece this hardware together, is it? They're fortunate if they earn enough just to buy the day's meals, if we are to believe the reports that often come out from time to time about the working conditions under which things are manufactured.

You say that we are not to cheat them, yet are they not cheating their own workers?

Before it appears that I'm condoning the upgrade under discussion here, under some sort of Robin Hood policy, let me say that I do find you make a valid point when you write:

Doing and using this "mod" silently at home >maybe< is one thing, publishing how-to´s is another.

But let's say that this is, as you infer, "piracy." When Microsoft released Windows 10, they also began to reverse-engineer both Windows 7 and 8 to introduce bits into the software which would allow telemetry to be sent back to Microsoft-- most of which we still aren't completely clear about. Microsoft also surreptitiously introduced "updates" for Windows 7 and 8 so that these OSes would at some point upgrade a system to Windows 10.

Certain individuals came up with a way to disable those bits and turn off the nagging Upgrade notifications, for example, so that people who run Windows 7 and 8 can continue to do so without worrying about waking up some morning and finding that Windows 10 has been installed on their computer.

Does this bypass constitute "piracy" since it undermines the instruments Microsoft is putting into place to ensure future profits that they, according to your initial point, are entitled to?

 

--Tim

[+Schmitzi]

yes yes, and thats why I call them M$. Maybe not a good example for this here. Just try to know what I mean.

And for me it doesn´t matter if behind the TL866 is a big company or not, it just was common sense (or in general I mean).

 

And Microsoft with Win10, shame on them, shame on them. What they do is insidiousness cheat on their customers.

(Hope Uncle Google translated me the correct words)

 

And I think, the question "Who they are" (back to the TL866-producer) cannot be answered with the mod.

Many (big) companies mangle their staff, it happens, and in taking their profit this will not

bring them up to pay more or to be better to their staff.

Opposite, it only can make it more worse.

Yes of course, paying the full price maybe will not mitigate their condition,

but isn´t less money the start of all this horror ?

[Timothy Kline]

yes yes, and thats why I call them M$. Maybe not a good example for this here. Just try to know what I mean.

And for me it doesn´t matter if behind the TL866 is a big company or not, it just was common sense (or in general I mean).

 

And Microsoft with Win10, shame on them, shame on them. What they do is insidiousness cheat on their customers.

(Hope Uncle Google translated me the correct words)

 

And I think, the question "Who they are" (back to the TL866-producer) cannot be answered with the mod.

Many (big) companies mangle their staff, it happens, and in taking their profit this will not

bring them up to pay more or to be better to their staff.

Opposite, it only can make it more worse.

Yes of course, paying the full price maybe will not mitigate their condition,

but isn´t less money the start of all this horror ?

 

Again, you make valid points, as have others from what I've been reading so far.

 

Sometimes, even if we don't know the answers, it's just about that freedom to at least be able to ask the questions.

 

--Tim

[Kyle22]

We are getting way off-topic here. Just so everyone knows, the firmware is included with their software package. It is freely downloadable from their website here: http://www.autoelectric.cn/MiniPro/minipro_setup.rar

It is still at version 6.50 as of now.

[globeron]

Thanks all for replying. In the mean time I ordered the TL866A version and received it yesterday.

[Kyle22]

Thanks all for replying. In the mean time I ordered the TL866A version and received it yesterday.

It's a nice little programmer, but you spent too much. The whole point of this thread is to save people money by buying the 866CS model instead of the 866A.

That's OK, I'm sure you will get much use from it.

[morelenmir]

Has anyone tested the 866A (original or cross-flashed) on a GAL22V10 or similar? If any of you chaps happen to have that chip would you mind giving it a quick test with the firmware attached?

 

I'm quite interested in giving Hias' super-inexpensive 512kB memory expansion a shot and that design uses the GAL in question. The JEDEC file comes from that project and all the code belongs to him.

 

Whatever the case I am pretty sure the 866A doesn't offer vector testing, which is a shame but would definitely be expecting too much at even the inflated retail 'A' price point.

sram13.jed

Edited June 30, 2016 by morelenmir

[Kyle22]

GAL22V10 is on their support list: http://www.autoelectric.cn/MiniPro/MiniProSupportList.txt

[morelenmir]

GAL22V10 is on their support list: http://www.autoelectric.cn/MiniPro/MiniProSupportList.txt

 

Excellent Kyle22 - many thanks!!!

[HiassofT]

GAL22V10 is on their support list: http://www.autoelectric.cn/MiniPro/MiniProSupportList.txt

When I bought the TL866 some one or two years ago programming Lattice 22V10 GALs didn't work (the software didn't program the full fusemap into the chip...). There are several reports on the 'net with similar problems.

 

But according to this post it might finally be fixed in the latest software/firmware version:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/246552-question-about-programming-galplds/?do=findComment&comment=3444989

 

Haven't tested that myself yet, though.

 

so long,

 

Hias