Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[Newsdee]

Accusing Mike Kennedy or anyone else involved in this project (...)

 

Attack the claims and maybe ideas, not the people

 

I think many of us see some value in what's going on but strongly disagree in the way it's being carried forward. This won't be the first nor last project of this sort regardless of whether the KS succeeds or not, so just bring out the popcorn and wait...

[RupanIII]

I wasn't joking about someone having metal or pyschological imparement being prime candidates for people who would buy into this even AFTER still hearing about the likelyhood that it's fraud. I didn't say you had to be stupid. Someone with an impulse control problem, someone who is overly trusting in the face of fairly damning evidence, etc. And you don't know who is making the comment yourself. We all have issues. And, someone, like people with a gambling problem, just are willing to roll the dice on a losing proposition because they really believe in the guy behind it. They would watch MK's video and fall in love with his words and follow him to the ends of the earth, believing he could not lie, he looks so truthful.

I said nothing disparaging about people with disabilities. I care for my mother with agent orange related illnesses and a friend in his 50's with early onset dimentia/alzheimers I do things for as well. I just believe you legitimately have judgement issues if you believe this, and, that can be a form of mental illness. Now drop the damned subject.

Please stop. Joking about mental or psychological disabilities is no joke. Several people on this forum including myself have issues. I have severe Adult ADHD which believe it or not, video games actually help me cope with. Some other members may also have Aspergers, OCD, or other conditions.

 

Accusing Mike Kennedy or anyone else involved in this project of having a disorder or handicap without any evidence is libel, and could get either the poster or Albert in hot legal waters.

 

 

This Public Service announcement brought to you by Kosmic Stardust.

[triverse]

For anyone n

 

So you are going to release on steam finally? Hopefully you use a script to hide the emulator on launch. Higan has the shittiest gui I have ever used.

Piko has a few games on Steam now, including Legend- which was shown in the videos released from the Toy Fair. For $5. Right now.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=piko

Edited February 17, 2016 by triverse

[PikoInteractive]

So you are going to release on steam finally? Hopefully you use a script to hide the emulator on launch. Higan has the shittiest gui I have ever used.

 

We've been on steam for a while now! Almost a year!

 

Higan is so well done it will allow us to work on the UI and make it look pretty...ish. SNES9x was a pain and could barely work.

 

-Also for consoles; read the blog I been leaking small bits of info for a project we are working on slowly.

 

 

Thanks for the appreciation, I am trying to be as respectful as possible to the community (transparency to some extent, honesty, etc), so I expect them to reciprocate.

[zredgemz]

I guess NG dev team wanted to not be involved again as i have not heard anything about gunlord for the Coleco Chameleon.

[phoenixdownita]

I guess NG dev team wanted to not be involved again as i have not heard anything about gunlord for the Coleco Chameleon.

The most glaring omission so far has been "Adv of Tiny Knight" .... I really thought they would use it as a showcase.

I can see thenavguy browsing the thread from time to time and given is involved somewhat with the CC project maybe he knows why Tiny Knight has not been mentioned yet.

Edited February 17, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[RupanIII]

They are working on their own machine, something codenamed Arcade Hardware.
Possibly their own Higher than Neo Geo spec box?> They say yes that it is being done but they again say they are being quiet on it for now.

 

So, that I have faith in.

 

 

I guess NG dev team wanted to not be involved again as i have not heard anything about gunlord for the Coleco Chameleon.

[bretthorror]

For anyone n

 

Piko has a few games on Steam now, including Legend- which was shown in the videos released from the Toy Fair. For $5. Right now.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?snr=1_4_4__12&term=piko

 

This is where I wish a guy with cart making experience could shed some light on. How much does it cost to make a cart and how much time does it take to produce a single one?

 

If a game is $5 on Steam and yet $34.99 on Chameleon cart... like where does the money go? I know there is more cost and effort with a cart, but Steam also must take a share of the revenue. So even if a $5 Steam game profits the dev $3, then shouldn't old style games on carts still be rather cheap unless you're really knocking up that profit margin really high? I understand business is about making money, but on a consumer level if I can get a game on Steam for $5, it seems like it should go to show a cart shouldn't be 10 times the price for people to make decent money when it sure as hell must cost the game dev a lot more in time to make a small amount per game.

[zredgemz]

They are working on their own machine, something codenamed Arcade Hardware.

Possibly their own Higher than Neo Geo spec box?> They say yes that it is being done but they again say they are being quiet on it for now.

 

So, that I have faith in.

 

 

Yeah i heard about that but i figured that system will be very expensive when it does come out but knowing NG dev team it will be high quality. Back on topic so how many games do we know this system will have besides the pikointeractive lineup? i have not followed the whole thread but i started on when the toy fair stuff happened(the good part for sure).

[Bill Loguidice]

Yeah i heard about that but i figured that system will be very expensive when it does come out but knowing NG dev team it will be high quality. Back on topic so how many games do we know this system will have besides the pikointeractive lineup? i have not followed the whole thread but i started on when the toy fair stuff happened(the good part for sure).

 

That's my concern with anything from NG:DEV as well, the price. Call me what you will, but there's really no scenario I can envision where I'll pay $300 or more for an ultra niche system unless said ultra niche system was capable of playing a lot more than a handful of games.

[triverse]

N

The most glaring omission so far has been "Adv of Tiny Knight" .... I really thought they would use it as a showcase.
I can see thenavguy browsing the thread from time to time and given is involved somewhat with the CC project maybe he knows why Tiny Knight has not been mentioned yet.

http://retrogamingmagazine.com/2015/12/21/we-open-the-door-to-the-coleco-chameleon-as-we-shut-the-door-on-the-retro-video-game-system/

Adventures of Tiny Knight was addressed in this article I wrote in late December 2015- basically not exclusive anymore and now listed as "maybe" coming to the Chameleon. Also mentioned in that article, according to Gamester81, acting public relations representative of CollectorVision, they are only currently working on the Sydney Hunter game because it is the only game they are contractually required to work on for the Chameleon.

I guess NG dev team wanted to not be involved again as i have not heard anything about gunlord for the Coleco Chameleon.

 

Please see the above article, it explains that NG:Dev Team have no plans to support the Chameleon with any games at the time of that article (late December 2015). I have yet to hear any updates to this so I can only figure that their stance has not changed since then.

Hope that helps.

[PikoInteractive]

 

This is where I wish a guy with cart making experience could shed some light on. How much does it cost to make a cart and how much time does it take to produce a single one?

 

If a game is $5 on Steam and yet $34.99 on Chameleon cart... like where does the money go? I know there is more cost and effort with a cart, but Steam also must take a share of the revenue. So even if a $5 Steam game profits the dev $3, then shouldn't old style games on carts still be rather cheap unless you're really knocking up that profit margin really high? I understand business is about making money, but on a consumer level if I can get a game on Steam for $5, it seems like it should go to show a cart shouldn't be 10 times the price for people to make decent money when it sure as hell must cost the game dev a lot more in time to make a small amount per game.

 

 

Well there is a ton of things to account for consideration when setting up the cart price. Parts, ROM size, labor, biz operations costs and IP.

 

For a new game, that has never been released. Developed from Scratch, or bought out. The price is going to be higher than a re-release of a game.

 

Legend and Jim power have been released before that is why we set up the 5 bucks on digital download. Dorke and Ymp on a SNES cart is like 60 bucks because we put in like freaking 300+ work ours to get it finished; so we have to make that back. Iron Commando we bought out out right (and Legend came with it) and it was expensive, so the MSRP won't be as cheap as if we were to re-release legend on SNES (or somewhere else).

 

Now cost of parts for a lo/hirom snes game with no saving, currently we are around 7-8 bucks depending the quantity we do, could be more if low quantities are made (under 250). Then we have to burn the chips and assemble by hand (labor) and this cost is probably much more than the parts. Then the packaging; to make boxes and manuals and labels for a product in low quantities (less than 3000 units at around 2-3 bucks for box and 2+ for manual depending on the page count, about a buck for labels.) your cost is very high; imagine us that do 300-500 per title :S! If the game was licensed we have to pay royalties.

 

So all that is taken into consideration.

 

Parts+Labor+ packaging+ rent+energy bill+ internet + licenses+ software+tools+investment+marketing/advertisement+buyouts+fulfillment+customer service+misc+profit = product price.

 

When digital goods are sold, you cut most of those things into just something like: Licenses+profit=price. Also you have to consider the market, you dont want to be overprices on the digital download marketplaces.

 

In our games though (the ones we put out and manufacture) once we make back our initial investment (right now at around 43% recovered) there would be a price drop on games and future releases. (meaning even new games would come out at a lower price than we used to do).

 

I don't know yet what are the specs of the CC PCB, parts, nor their cost for manufacturing in the States (must be high, like 2-3 bucks a shell at least!).

 

So at around 25-35 bucks I don't see it that bad, Although I do believe if they plan to go to retailers with that MSRP, it is going to squeeze them and developers thin; probably not worth it IMO.

[zredgemz]

Thanks i have been following ng dev team but i think they learned their lesson.

[triverse]

Thanks i have been following ng dev team but i think they learned their lesson.

True fans are worth their weight in gold.

[RupanIII]

Well, here's something to consider. They aren't likely to use a Neo Geo style dual pcb cart. They are doing this so their future games can be more exciting and cheaper.
IT could also serve to do some of what this CC may never get a chance to do. If Indie devs can port games to it, like if it gets a mainstream game engine support, cart versions of many indie games might come out.
However, it will also likely have a JAMMA standard arcade backplane connector on the back, and that has to be a quality PCB (6 layer would be smart)... so it won't be $150. I'd guess they might get down to $250. Hoping games stay under $100 for GIANT games, and $50 or lower for remakes/rereleases/small games.

Speculation.

 

That's my concern with anything from NG:DEV as well, the price. Call me what you will, but there's really no scenario I can envision where I'll pay $300 or more for an ultra niche system unless said ultra niche system was capable of playing a lot more than a handful of games.

 

Welll... Piko and Collectorvision, and Mike Kennedy and some others do have connections, but, right now... they need to clear alot of things up.
I'd say, they need to show a bare board with their slot, plugging in a multi cart that plays coleco, genesis, and snes games... that would make the Kickstarter a success.

Yeah i heard about that but i figured that system will be very expensive when it does come out but knowing NG dev team it will be high quality. Back on topic so how many games do we know this system will have besides the pikointeractive lineup? i have not followed the whole thread but i started on when the toy fair stuff happened(the good part for sure).

 

I agree, this thing would, if it really materializes, be an Internet and Boutique Catalog item... Maybe a TV Infomercial item (yeah, I said it, lol) QVC, and hence might sell well at As Seen on TV stores and in CVS/Walgreens/Rite Aid like the knockoff units do. Advertise that more games available online and to sign up for news letters and it would be a win win for the boutique / cottage indy retro industry.

 

 

Well there is a ton of things to account for consideration when setting up the cart price. Parts, ROM size, labor, biz operations costs and IP.

 

For a new game, that has never been released. Developed from Scratch, or bought out. The price is going to be higher than a re-release of a game.

 

Legend and Jim power have been released before that is why we set up the 5 bucks on digital download. Dorke and Ymp on a SNES cart is like 60 bucks because we put in like freaking 300+ work ours to get it finished; so we have to make that back. Iron Commando we bought out out right (and Legend came with it) and it was expensive, so the MSRP won't be as cheap as if we were to re-release legend on SNES (or somewhere else).

 

Now cost of parts for a lo/hirom snes game with no saving, currently we are around 7-8 bucks depending the quantity we do, could be more if low quantities are made (under 250). Then we have to burn the chips and assemble by hand (labor) and this cost is probably much more than the parts. Then the packaging; to make boxes and manuals and labels for a product in low quantities (less than 3000 units at around 2-3 bucks for box and 2+ for manual depending on the page count, about a buck for labels.) your cost is very high; imagine us that do 300-500 per title :S! If the game was licensed we have to pay royalties.

So all that is taken into consideration.

 

Parts+Labor+ packaging+ rent+energy bill+ internet + licenses+ software+tools+investment+marketing/advertisement+buyouts+fulfillment+customer service+misc+profit = product price.

 

When digital goods are sold, you cut most of those things into just something like: Licenses+profit=price. Also you have to consider the market, you dont want to be overprices on the digital download marketplaces.

 

In our games though (the ones we put out and manufacture) once we make back our initial investment (right now at around 43% recovered) there would be a price drop on games and future releases. (meaning even new games would come out at a lower price than we used to do).

 

I don't know yet what are the specs of the CC PCB, parts, nor their cost for manufacturing in the States (must be high, like 2-3 bucks a shell at least!).

So at around 25-35 bucks I don't see it that bad, Although I do believe if they plan to go to retailers with that MSRP, it is going to squeeze them and developers thin; probably not worth it IMO.

 

[phoenixdownita]

どっかの掲示板で「ヤツのSNES FPGAはフェイクか本物か賭けようぜ」ってなってる

Has become me, "Let 's bet either fake or genuine guy of SNES FPGA" somewhere in the bulletin board

 

その掲示板でColeco ChameleonにFPGAが使われててSNESもサポするみたいな感じで書かれてるみたいだけどどうなの（流し読み

In its bulletin board Coleco Chameleon in the FPGA-used it has SNES also what about the But like it is written in felt like a to support (flow reading

OK got my friend translation, just at the phone like 30mins ago as I was walking outside, nothing in writing so bear with me if it is not 100% as I only remember the gist of it. I know it's only 2 sentences but I'm getting old and memory is not as good as it used to be.

 

So the first one is along these lines: They say they have a SNES FPGA. Do you want to bet if it's real or fake?

The second one is along the lines: The Chameleon claims to have a SNES FPGA, do you believe it?

 

So in short (unless I completely misunderstood my friend, which to be fair has happened in the past) I think the guy is a little stumped and I think that means it's not his core.

kevtris has been public in saying he doesn't have one.

 

So whatever they were running at the Toy Fair has high probability of NOT being an FPGA SNES core proper.

Likely as xianaix and elmer pointed out earlier if at all they mean ARM emu + small FPGA for cart pin mapping.

 

Until proven otherwise I still lean towards thinking that at the Toy Fair we saw a SNES mini in haphazard disguise aka Coleco Chameleon "deja vu" Edition (I would have used the Coleco Chameleon RVGS Edition given the heritage but that would have been too much of a double entendre)

Edited February 17, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[zredgemz]

Good work.

[phoenixdownita]

 

Good work.

 

We'll see.

I was hoping that RupanIII on the forum was from Japan given he uses the original japanese name of Rupan Sansei but maybe he happens just to be a fan of Monkey Punch like myself.

Edited February 17, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[rob_ocelot]

This is not true, so please stop repeating it.

..Al

 

Was there a reason for why two threads related to the RVGS/Coleco Chameleon were locked in December?

It was frustrating enough that I stopped reading and participating on AA for more than a month.

 

If an explanation was given it's entirely possible I may have missed it in that time, so my apologies if this was the case.

[StopDrop&Retro]

True fans are worth their weight in gold.

 

Meanwhile, Mike ponders a new slogan:

 

True fans will wait for fool's gold.

[phoenixdownita]

This is not true, so please stop repeating it.

 

..Al

 

Was there a reason for why two threads related to the RVGS/Coleco Chameleon were locked in December?

It was frustrating enough that I stopped reading and participating on AA for more than a month.

 

If an explanation was given it's entirely possible I may have missed it in that time, so my apologies if this was the case.

I was present in both cases and in short once the threads derailed into a witch hunt against Mike they got closed, which to be fair is the correct thing to do as at that point there's nothing left for the thread.

In one case (the Xmas shutdown) if memory serves CPUWIZ was moderating as Albert was out and given the festivities he had imho a slightly short fuse that day, I do understand though, he also was the one that brought up the C&D letter (but he said it was a joke within the hour).

Edited February 17, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[+Random Terrain]

This is not true, so please stop repeating it.

 

..Al

 

Was there a reason for why two threads related to the RVGS/Coleco Chameleon were locked in December?

It was frustrating enough that I stopped reading and participating on AA for more than a month.

 

If an explanation was given it's entirely possible I may have missed it in that time, so my apologies if this was the case.

 

Related posts:

 

atariage.com/forums/topic/247110-2-topics-about-coleco-chameleon-got-locked-after-my-last-post-wtf/?p=3399712

 

atariage.com/forums/topic/247110-2-topics-about-coleco-chameleon-got-locked-after-my-last-post-wtf/?p=3400025

[phoenixdownita]

And in anticipation of the new KS tier for tomorrow:

Coleco Chameleon Kolibri Edition

(enjoy the linked review for the 32x 1996 original Kolibri game, I find it hilarious .... I "like" the titles of the stages and agree wholeheartedly with the reviewer: "these programmers were some really lonely guys")

Edited February 17, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[Keatah]

If indeed it takes a $600 FPGA to accurately emulate the SNES, then there is no way in hell the Team RetroVGS Coleco Chameleon will be able to pull this off with a $150 MSRP.

 

That's right. But it isn't a $600 FPGA. It's a $600 Development & Training board that is much more than a bare chip.

http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=165&No=502

 

 

[..]

Seems like MK's 'all in' in terms of community, maybe financially too, and I just kind of wonder how this could possibly turn out 'okay' at this point. When I imagine what the receiving end of this fallout could feel like, it brings me down a bit.

Everybody involved has got to have realized that this isn't even where bad game systems come from, much less good ones, and it can't be a good feeling moving forward in spite of it all. I'm guessing that maybe for financial reasons, this project 'has' to work out--not much else makes sense to me.

 

I understand the project was originally conceived so they could quit their day jobs. It was said as such in a youtube interview that took place prior to the Indiegogo campaign.

[RupanIII]

Unfortunately, I am just a Monkey Punch fan at the time... but I do have this brilliant man named Devin I can ask.

 

He usually lives on Reddit. Let me see if he will respond.

We'll see.

I was hoping that RupanIII on the forum was from Japan given he uses the original japanese name of Rupan Sansei but maybe he happens just to be a fan of Monkey Punch like myself.