interesting effect

[w1k]

its possible make on little atari something like this?

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by w1k

[Bryan]

Looks like it could be done with simple character set tricks.

[+CharlieChaplin]

Hmmm,

 

it is an animated GIF, so it should be doable with TIP animator on the A8... I give it a try...

[miker]

IMHO tip is a waste for this, better some char-mode,

Probably >64k "effect" it will be.

[+JAC!]

Looks lovely.

[Synthpopalooza]

This could easily be done in Antic 2 character mode and save a lot of overhead. One would only need to export the frames from the GIF and render each one in G2F and optimize

[+CharlieChaplin]

Yep,

 

no way for a TIP animation, the above animation uses 180 frames, so the TIP ani would most likely require 320k RAM. But what absolutely kills it for me is that the frames uses varying pixel sizes (e.g. one frame with 500x500 pixels, the next one with 468x497 pixels, the next one with 480x487 pixels, etc.)...

 

Almost all TIP animations I have done (converted from GIF anis) did have frames with the same size from start to end. Think I converted a few ones with different frame sizes, but you can see this very well in the TIP animation, the animated item suddenly changes its size or does other weird things...

 

So, thumbs up for a char-mode animation that works with 64k or at least 128k RAM...

Edited January 9, 2016 by CharlieChaplin

[José Pereira]

Ok but that is using that image size.

That same effect can be resized to A8 screen size black&white hi-res.

Lets say that each [+] is a [6x6] chars we would have:

Horizontally - 7x[+] - 42chars width;

Vertically - 5x[+] - 30chars height (probably only 4x[+] because of GTIA bottom last scanline bug?);

 

48Bytes/chars wide screen with those 42chars centered and probably it can use GR.0 charmode only one charset? Doesn't seem that the different frames rotated aren't much that can't fit in a single charset 128chars.

Or use a 40Bytes/chars wide screen centered with horizontally 6x[+] / vertically 4x[+], no GTIA bottom last scanline bug and it will also be possible to see on a NTSC tv display.

Other same way GR.0 charmode with multiple charsets across the screen or have the [+] frames as tiles and use an around 8KBs bitmap mode GR.8 screen...

Edited January 10, 2016 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

Better looking would still be to use all of the A8 overscan screen on PAL that is [48x30] chars that with the [+] same [6x6] chars size and we'll have 8x5 [+] on screen.

Edited January 10, 2016 by José Pereira

[miker]

Ok, a bit simplier effects, still nice. Already crippled into single frames.

 

Anyone?

crosses.zip

[Rybags]

I think the whole point of doing it would be to do it in a dynamically rendered manner. Cramming 180 frames or whatever of GIF into 64K might be some achievement but IMO doesn't really count as a demo.

 

I'd also be doing it in character mode. There seems to be a ruleset in place.

A rotating cross uses a 3x3 grid but a rotation can't start unless all elements are static in their parked position.

Each rotating cross can start at any position, it doesn't have to be snapped to a distinct 3 character H/V boundary.

 

Doing this would probably be a little like the "Life" program. You could end up with countless permutations by altering the ruleset and having different "seed" values, ie which particular crosses have movement initiated first.

 

Could it be done with the default character set?

I think probably but for the purpose of it being worth more than a passing glance, intermediate angles would be desirable other than just 0/45 degrees.

 

 

Just noticed something - since the outer parts of the crosses describe a circle as they move, they actually make incursion into the neighbouring character cells, if only by a couple of pixels briefly in the rotation. Obviously doing this would add a lot of work, I would think the effect shouldn't suffer too much if the crosses are restricted to their local 3x3.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Rybags

[+CharlieChaplin]

Ok, a bit simplier effects, still nice. Already crippled into single frames.

 

Anyone?

 

Well,

 

tried the tip animation with these frames, but when using all 60 frames the animation required min. 320k RAM (no matter if using tip animator 2.9 or tip animator 2xB). So I was evil and took only half the frames. The original size was 400x400 pixels, TIP has a max. resolution of 160x100 pixels, so a square could have max. 100x100 pixels...

 

I did choose a) 60x60 pixels and b) 80x80 pixels as viewable size for the frames / the animation (then created a black border / passe partout / ... around all frames so they had 160x100 pixels again). With Tip Animator 2xB the smaller sized animation required 128k RAM, the bigger one 320k RAM. Luckily, with TIP Animator 2.9 the smaller sized animation required only 64k RAM, the bigger one 128k RAM - and thats what you find attached here, two animations created with TIP Animator 2.9 for 64k and 128k machines...

 

But do not expect too much, in my eyes the animations do not look that good and they differ from w1k`s original animation in post 1... (and I tested the result only in the emulator).

animated_crosses.zip

[emkay]

There's one screen, when a white cross is rotating inside the limits of a black square, then there is one black cross rotating inside the limits of a white square.... copied to the whole screen.

Where's the problem?

[Bryan]

A couple things...

 

The animation characters can use the invert property to represent both white and black crosses with the same characters. The motion moves downward in a deterministic way, but adjacent columns are stationary, so you need a vertically sliding animation window.

[kiwilove]

Nice to see something I didn't see before - the animation of the original file.

 

There are actually a lot of this kind of stuff - almost all requiring a high-res mode with lots of frames - so very few can be transferred across to the A8.

But a very low percentage could be used in some manner - although these are less dynamic as such, and are more optical illusions, instead of trick animation as such.

 

But still there's adequate material I think could be used/done for a demo theme - and can be used in the background of certain games.

Demo coders could go to town on this kind of theme - I'll guess, if they were so inclined.

 

A lot of them won't work because of the downgrading process to port it down to A8 hardware.

And will have a greater chance of working - if you go to hardware of a higher resolution.

 

Harvey

[popmilo]

Huuuhhhh... I wanna make this !

 

This is a great puzzle to solve, thanks!

[+JAC!]

Hehe me too, but I lack the time...

[+CharlieChaplin]

Nice to see something I didn't see before - the animation of the original file.

 

There are actually a lot of this kind of stuff - almost all requiring a high-res mode with lots of frames - so very few can be transferred across to the A8.

But a very low percentage could be used in some manner - although these are less dynamic as such, and are more optical illusions, instead of trick animation as such.

 

But still there's adequate material I think could be used/done for a demo theme - and can be used in the background of certain games.

Demo coders could go to town on this kind of theme - I'll guess, if they were so inclined.

 

A lot of them won't work because of the downgrading process to port it down to A8 hardware.

And will have a greater chance of working - if you go to hardware of a higher resolution.

 

Harvey

 

Hmmm,

 

you mean something like this (these): https://www.google.de/search?q=Illusion.gif&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB4tPXyarKAhXDnA4KHbbrAkoQsAQIIw&biw=1024&bih=592

 

Think I converted quite many of these illusions to the A8. Alas, a lot of these animated illusion GIF`s had a resolution of 500x500 pixels up to 1000x1000 pixels, while on the A8 I could only use somewhere between 60x60 and 100x100 pixels. Thus many illusions did not work very good on the A8 and I kept only approx. 20 illusions as TIP animations...

 

If interested I could upload some of them in the TIP Animator topic. (One interesting illusion showed two wheels, one of them was rotating clockwise, the other one counter-clockwise, but due to the nature of the human eye, both appeared as rotating clockwise; the author showed every single frame on his webpage to prove that the wheels are rotating differently and also explained why the human eye has problems seeing it; alas, when viewing the A8 animation, you just see two wheels rotating and wonder what the illusion might be there. There are other illusions as well, e.g. with three rotating girls or girl-statues, a rotating cube, etc. where you may or may not see the illusion at first glimpse...)

 

There once was also an Illusion Demo which worked on 64k machines (?) and showed many illusion pictures. Could not find it at Fandal`s webpage or atarionline.pl. But since it is in my collection I could upload it also...

Edited January 15, 2016 by CharlieChaplin

[kiwilove]

Hmmm,

 

you mean something like this (these): https://www.google.de/search?q=Illusion.gif&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjB4tPXyarKAhXDnA4KHbbrAkoQsAQIIw&biw=1024&bih=592

 

Think I converted quite many of these illusions to the A8. Alas, a lot of these animated illusion GIF`s had a resolution of 500x500 pixels up to 1000x1000 pixels, while on the A8 I could only use somewhere between 60x60 and 100x100 pixels. Thus many illusions did not work very good on the A8 and I kept only approx. 20 illusions as TIP animations...

 

If interested I could upload some of them in the TIP Animator topic. (One interesting illusion showed two wheels, one of them was rotating clockwise, the other one counter-clockwise, but due to the nature of the human eye, both appeared as rotating clockwise; the author showed every single frame on his webpage to prove that the wheels are rotating differently and also explained why the human eye has problems seeing it; alas, when viewing the A8 animation, you just see two wheels rotating and wonder what the illusion might be there. There are other illusions as well, e.g. with three rotating girls or girl-statues, a rotating cube, etc. where you may or may not see the illusion at first glimpse...)

 

There once was also an Illusion Demo which worked on 64k machines (?) and showed many illusion pictures. Could not find it at Fandal`s webpage or atarionline.pl. But since it is in my collection I could upload it also...

Right on, with that page. It is of course, the simpler ones, which will have any chance of working on A8 hardware. I would be interested to see that Illusion Demo.

I don't have the patience or time to view a lot of the demos by democoders - as I easily get bored - but always am impressed by some of the effects done.

Illusions can be done with wire frame - so it's not like they need to use lots of colours.

 

Another title that could be experimented with, would be tesselations - Like Escher's fish turning birds or of that nature. Why democoders don't experiment with such a theme - I am puzzled. Maybe it's just too hard, and require lots of experimentation. I think it could be done using a dynamic changing character(s)?

 

Harvey

Edited January 15, 2016 by kiwilove

[pirx]

Why democoders don't experiment with such a theme - I am puzzled. Maybe it's just too hard, and require lots of experimentation.

 

Hi! Tried few optical illusions before and my conclusion was it is not good for party presentation - required some level of concentration and a little bit more time to understand why the effect is cool. So such a demo would not be really good for a live competition.

[TMR]

Why democoders don't experiment with such a theme - I am puzzled. Maybe it's just too hard, and require lots of experimentation.

Generally speaking, animations are used quite often in demos - although not always where you'd expect, my mega DYCP in Greetz0rz is technically an anim for example and there are a few demos where an animation is filling screen real estate because the primary effect needs all of the available time - but the interesting part for demo coders is usually the technical aspect, either finding ways to cram more animation into a finite space or trying to fake it so everything looks to be done on the fly.

 

i can think of a couple of ways to do the rotating crosses on a 48K machine - one very dirty solution and another with a bit more finesse - but it doesn't interest me enough personally to actually write the code...

[José Pereira]

Hi to all.

I decided to cut all the frames that Miker crippled into single frames 80pixels from the right and 160pixels from the bottom that makes 320x240 pictures.

I think that is the best way because we really use the original and any re-sizing would 'kill' detail.

Of course that they can be other size and even a full overscan 384x240 but this size seem to show better because when show exactly crosses 'no cut' on the frame0/1st screen and start from here 'right looking/way' untill the last one (after this I also saved in mono .bmp so that it can be directly used on A8):

->->

 

And here's all (Miker's .png and mine ... 320x240.png and ... 320x240 mono.bmp):

INSTITUTO 15_01_2016.zip

 

Yes, I know it was just cutting on Microsoft Office and saving into mono .bmp using Paint but at least it 'saves' to anyone interested in codind this...

[popmilo]

Imho it's not interesting to do it like animation... Find the general principle, make it dynamic, maybe respond to joystick or music.

 

Looking at the animation it looks like repeating pattern of 'cross centers' is 10x10 'squares'. Waves of rotation sweep in from top of one column to bottom and move left through all columns. White crosses rotate in one direction and black in other.

 

Such effect like in that gif animation can be made quite easily as there are never overlaps between two types of rotation (black and white). Only overlap is between two crosses that are next to each other in a vertical column. And all those details in overlap part are the same for the whole surface...

 

Good thing it is weekend, time to code

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

 

I just uploaded some animated illusions, which I converted into TIP animations two or three years ago.

(Also found out, that I already converted the "animated crosses" above some years ago, one can find them in the ZIP file as Illus21.xex)

 

You can find the tip animations here:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/130172-tip-animator/page-15?do=findComment&comment=3416644

 

 

[dmsc]

its possible make on little atari something like this?

Something like this?

 

 

A little turbo basic XL program, run attached ATR image.

 

It's not exactly the same, but IMHO close enough

crosses.atr