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apple ii Atari computers

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#26 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:42 PM

I've already got three different Beebs (used to have four, sold one), three different Atari 8-bits (used to have five, sold two) and one Apple ][+ clone (besides all the other systems in my collection) so for that purpose I'm all set. I live alone in a rather spacy 700 sq ft apartment, so it all fits in semi-archived state. The Apple clone though lives in the hall, just inside the front door, since its arrival.



#27 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:09 PM

Almost every different CP/M machine has a slightly different disk format so I don't think the disk format is an issue.

As you say, why use a vintage computer for productivity related stuff.
 

 

This is not a slight difference we're talking about, though. 



#28 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:10 PM

As part of my collection, I have several BBC computers. They're really nice. It's a shame I don't have a rare US one, though, but I couldn't justify it after investing in the British models.



#29 JamesD OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:11 PM

Correct, disk format isn't an issue. It can be worked around. Transffered from one machine to another via different means. It's more the file format and the ability of the destination machine to read them.

 

In my opinion file transfers between computers didn't become a commonplace consumer affair until the development of CD-R and then, later, Flash technology - memory cards and JumpDrives..

 

A one certain writing environment I enjoy is very simple. It looks something like this. Notepad on one screen, iTunes on the other.

Disk format differences were a PITA back in the 70s and early 80s when there were no interchangeable format storage devices, modems were 300 baud, online networks charged by the hour, one long distance phone call could cost you almost what you pay per month for unlimited calls, and a large program could occupy multiple floppies.
Oh to have Flash storage devices back then.  



#30 JamesD OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:14 PM

 

This is not a slight difference we're talking about, though. 

If you can't read the disk from one CP/M machine on another one, what difference does it make if it's MFM, GCR, or something else?
Some of them didn't even use the same size media.
 



#31 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:18 PM

If you can't read the disk from one CP/M machine on another one, what difference does it make if it's MFM, GCR, or something else?
Some of them didn't even use the same size media.
 

 

You can generally convert between Kaypro, Osborne, and several other formats fairly easily (and drives like Commodore's 1571 for the C-128 was very good at reading multiple formats). So there was SOMETHING of a standard. The Apple II, because of its disk drive, is another beast entirely.



#32 JamesD OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:29 PM

 

You can generally convert between Kaypro, Osborne, and several other formats fairly easily (and drives like Commodore's 1571 for the C-128 was very good at reading multiple formats). So there was SOMETHING of a standard. The Apple II, because of its disk drive, is another beast entirely.

Please show me some document that specifies how data is to be magnetically encoded on a CP/M disk.  Good luck, it doesn't exist.
The fact that someone wrote a utility that can convert between different disks where drives are close enough to read from several different machines does not make it a standard.

CP/M can use any type of random access drive.  
Over the years they used 8" disks, 5 1/4" single or double density disks, 3.5" disks, hard disks, and the Coleco Adam even uses tape drives.

The CP/M standard requires common OS calls.  
Info about the disk format is stored in a Disk Parameter Block so the software knows how to access the drive through those OS calls.
But that only tells the logical disk layout the software sees, not the physical disk encoding.  

You can still transfer data files or software from one CP/M system to another through a serial port and a program like Kermit.
Kermit was originally designed to transfer data between mainframes and CP/M systems.

"Kermit can be used as a means to load boot software. For example CP/M machines used many different floppy disk formats, which meant that one machine could not normally read disks from another CP/M machine, and Kermit was used as part of a process to enable the transfer of applications and data between CP/M machines and other machines with different operating systems. "
https://en.wikipedia...rmit_(protocol)
 



#33 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:56 PM

Please show me some document that specifies how data is to be magnetically encoded on a CP/M disk.  Good luck, it doesn't exist.
The fact that someone wrote a utility that can convert between different disks where drives are close enough to read from several different machines does not make it a standard.
 

 

 

I never said it was a standard, I said it was something of a standard. Yes, being able to read and/or convert from/to different formats was quite handy using a regular disk drive. If you were an Apple II CP/M user, you didn't have that luxury. I think we all get that there are other ways of transferring software. I was merely pointing out a relative limitation of the Apple II CP/M implementation.



#34 simbalion OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:06 PM

Ok... I think I'll just put the Apple II's back into storage and just game on my Atari's then. I might just download Applewin again and tinker with that. Thanks!


Edited by simbalion, Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:15 PM.


#35 JamesD OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:24 AM

 

I never said it was a standard, I said it was something of a standard. Yes, being able to read and/or convert from/to different formats was quite handy using a regular disk drive. If you were an Apple II CP/M user, you didn't have that luxury. I think we all get that there are other ways of transferring software. I was merely pointing out a relative limitation of the Apple II CP/M implementation.

I wouldn't even know where to begin to respond to the first sentence.  :roll: 
 



#36 Keatah ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:20 AM

Ok... I think I'll just put the Apple II's back into storage and just game on my Atari's then. I might just download Applewin again and tinker with that. Thanks!

 

Woot! Emulation wins again!

 

As buggy and slow-moving as AppleWin is, it will still run about 80% of the software out there. With the problem titles being made for certain expansion hardware like modems, printers, and some hard disks. If you just wanna simply play games, you're pretty much set.



#37 Ransom OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:42 AM

CP/M can use any type of random access drive.  
Over the years they used 8" disks, 5 1/4" single or double density disks, 3.5" disks, hard disks, and the Coleco Adam even uses tape drives.

 

One of the things that first attracted me to my wife was her 8" disk.

 

No, seriously. :)  She worked at a company that sold computer stuff to large corporations and governments. She got all the cool toys. Later on, she had the first WORM drive I ever saw. When the company went bankrupt, it was my wife's job to liquidate everything. She kept some misc. stuff just for fun. I think the 8" drive is still in the basement, along with some disk packs and other detritus.



#38 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:19 AM

I wouldn't even know where to begin to respond to the first sentence.  :roll: 
 

 

Good, then don't. Obviously, CP/M is designed for generic platforms, which means, in part, it works with just about every media type, including 8" disks, 5.25" disks, 3" disks, micro-cassettes, etc. In fact, of the more than dozen CP/M systems I have, the only media type I don't personally have a system that functions with natively is 3.5" disks. My point, however, was a simple one. By the very early 1980s, there was a real effort to directly support the most common 5.25" disk formats. This was handy for those who couldn't connect with a modem, where connecting via serial cable was impractical, or for a variety of other reasons. Reading/writing to different formats was arguably the easiest way of transferring software and save files back and forth. As such, the Apple II platform wasn't well suited to that, since there was no way to exchange media except with other Apple II users on CP/M. That's all.



#39 simbalion OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:35 AM

Well, if emulation is the way to go I might end up just dumping my Apple IIe's later on. Sorry, some of the messages I was seeing here has discouraged me and I now know how much of a fool I am for thinking I could do a little tinkering with these old units. From now on, I'll just let them keep going to the recyclers and just tinker on an emulator.



#40 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:45 AM

Well, if emulation is the way to go I might end up just dumping my Apple IIe's later on. Sorry, some of the messages I was seeing here has discouraged me and I now know how much of a fool I am for thinking I could do a little tinkering with these old units. From now on, I'll just let them keep going to the recyclers and just tinker on an emulator.

 

I don't quite understand your reaction. Just about any vintage platform - with sufficient money and time invested - can be made as simple and fun to operate as you'd like. An Apple II is one of the better examples of that because it was and continues to be so well supported. If you like using original hardware, then there really is no substitute. If that doesn't matter to you, then emulation is always the best alternative because it takes up no space and usually requires no monetary investment. It doesn't quite feel the same, but if that doesn't matter, then so be it.



#41 simbalion OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:58 AM

Eh, I think I'm reading some things the wrong way. My sleep is messed up and it is making me a very moody person. Also, there are other things not helping my mood right now. That stuff I will post in my blog later as here is not the right place. What happened is I misread a message and thought I was being called a fool for even thinking I could do more than gaming on the Apple II and I kicked into a rather growly, sarcastic mode. I am sorry about that folks. Sometimes I do tend to get growly and grumpy like a lion!

 

Ok, to clarify things. Yes, I like the Apple II for games and such, but want to see if I can do a bit more with it like word processing. I like to try and write short stories and I want to try writing some stuff on the Apple II. I can be easily distracted and it's all too easy for me to just get on the net and flit my time away whereas the Apple II can't get on the net. Also, I want to mess with some people! The CFFA 3000 might make it possible for me to even transfer from the Apple II and even post those stories on the sites I like here on the net.


Edited by simbalion, Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:03 AM.


#42 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:16 AM

Ok, to clarify things. Yes, I like the Apple II for games and such, but want to see if I can do a bit more with it like word processing. I like to try and write short stories and I want to try writing some stuff on the Apple II. I can be easily distracted and it's all too easy for me to just get on the net and flit my time away whereas the Apple II can't get on the net. Also, I want to mess with some people! The CFFA 3000 might make it possible for me to even transfer from the Apple II and even post those stories on the sites I like here on the net.

 

You don't need anything special to word process on the Apple II, so just go for it, then. There are a plethora of native programs that will work just fine. 

As for a distraction-free environment, you can do that with just about any modern device. There's plenty of distraction-free writing programs and other ways to not distract yourself. Hopefully that's just not an excuse for what's REALLY stopping you from writing, i.e., it's just not simple procrastination. If you want to write, just write, period. I've personally expended more than my fair share of effort in my day trying to create a "perfect" writing environment, simple or otherwise. Ultimately, I've come to realize it was just an excuse to put off the actual task at hand. With that said, by all means, try to improve your environment when you can, just don't expect miracles from any such change.



#43 simbalion OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:32 AM

Oh, procrastination is about 90% of the problem at times! LOL  But, I sometimes find that changing things up can help inspire me and kick me in the butt to write more stuff. I probably even have some writing programs floating around for my Apple II somewhere. Heck, I have the Atariwriter cart for my Atar 8-bits, but no instructions to go with it. This is far from the first time I have wanted to try out the Apple II for writing, but I've never gotten around to asking how the heck I can get it from that computer to this. (There's that procrastination again!) Really, I am just trying to get back into things again after a couple bad years for myself and my family. Spent most of last year in a funk and now want to explore these systems again and more at depth.



#44 Keatah ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:09 PM

Well you just get into it. No need to invent reasons. There's a whole set of productivity disks at asimov. And keep in mind CP/M is not a defining factor of the Apple II. Just one aspect of it.



#45 Keatah ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:34 PM

"Investing"?  Haha....

 

The Apple II+ units is starting to rise. While they're far from their 1980's price in adjusted dollars, they're on their way up. And that's a good thing.

 

Of all the classic computers, Apples will probably go the highest because of the halo effect. And once Wozniak kicks the bucket expect a rush on fleabay!



#46 Osgeld ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:14 PM

my dad wrote is masters thesis on a apple II with PFS write, there's a ton of good WP programs on the system including that and appleworks 

 

and you dont need a CFFA to get data in and out of the apple II, serial ports work wonders, heck some one was even working on a imagewriter emulator so you could "print" more than just text out of the machine as well, and dont forget about ADT pro which lets you send disk images direct to floppy via serial, network, or plain old audio on the tape drive jacks


Edited by Osgeld, Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:17 PM.


#47 simbalion OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:23 PM

Right now I am getting my hardware all stabilized and such. Eventually, I can get started on things. I think I have a couple copies of Appleworks around. I know I have a box with the manuals and it looks like two sets of disks for that. I was even tinkering around with a copy of Print Shop I found tonight in my stuff, getting spaced out by the demos on there. Pretty colors.... What I want to try and do is at least get one working original II and a II plus into the stable before prices get too high. IIe's still seem to be in the dumper, probably because so many are out there. Still, the IIe is a good unit and my little IIc still works well. Tried one on a TV tonight with an RF cable to the video input and that definitey works as well. Heck, could possibly even use the flatscreen in my bedroom..



#48 BassGuitari OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:27 PM

And that's a good thing.


Uh...why? It's harder and harder for people who want them to get them. It's good if you're selling them, I guess.
 

Of all the classic computers, Apples will probably go the highest because of the halo effect. And once Wozniak kicks the bucket expect a rush on fleabay!


I call it the Coca Cola effect. When you have a popular company that's been a force in the industry for a long time, eventually their earlier product and/or memorabilia becomes highly collectible. You could apply it to Harley-Davidson motorcycles, Gibson guitars, vintage Coke memorabilia, or yes, even Apple computers. I think it also explains (partly) why classic Nintendo consoles have such rabid followings. Sega and Atari were Indian and Moxie.

You're right, though. And I agree, if Steve Wozniak dies (which should be any day now, judging by the celebrity death rate so far this year :skull:), Apple shit's gonna go through the roof. Especially those Woz Edition systems.



#49 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:01 PM

Dunno, I checked the longevity (?) of Woz' parents and grandparents. Out of those six people, three became 90 years or older (paternal grandmother 98 years old), only two died before 70 which gives an average of 83.5 years. I'd say chances are good that you'll have to wait at least 20 more years before Apple computers get valuable again. 



#50 Osgeld ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:20 PM

Woz will live for ever, unlike that other guy







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