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some 15 kHz tunes

music pokey RMT

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#26 lotek_style OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:29 AM

Really nice stuff. I have covered you here: http://demozoo.org/sceners/63672/



#27 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:34 AM

Generally I compose music using my old piano, write ideas using Renoise or Cubase, do sound desing using Access Virus.


Using a digital piano, MIDI and Cubase isn't that hard to port the data to RMT. The RMT application has an 'import' function: you can port over from mod-2-rmt. And you can find several mid-2-mod tools on the internet.

I found it difficult to make a decision years ago, comparing the 64 kHz mode and the 15 kHz mode. But now I totally love the 15 kHz mode, and IMO using those ugly fake distortion 12 basses in 64 kHz are crap. Two octaves lower gives a real chip music, instead of 'toy' music. ;) But without the 1.79 MHz possibilities it was totally crap.

#28 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:10 PM

 

Using a digital piano, MIDI and Cubase isn't that hard to port the data to RMT. The RMT application has an 'import' function: you can port over from mod-2-rmt. And you can find several mid-2-mod tools on the internet.

 

I believe you. Can't say more because I never needed to convert midi data from one setup to another. I don't even have a digital piano or other midi keyboard ;) Maybe the word 'port' I used is misleading. 

 

I found it difficult to make a decision years ago, comparing the 64 kHz mode and the 15 kHz mode. But now I totally love the 15 kHz mode, and IMO using those ugly fake distortion 12 basses in 64 kHz are crap. Two octaves lower gives a real chip music, instead of 'toy' music.  ;) But without the 1.79 MHz possibilities it was totally crap.

 

I understand. I've heard a lot of people expressing similar opinions and many people preferring and enjoying 64 kHz tunes. It's music: the more approaches to composition, generating timbres etc. the better ;)

 

Edited by makary, Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:42 PM.


#29 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:21 PM

Really nice stuff. I have covered you here: http://demozoo.org/sceners/63672/

 

Thanks!

 

BTW: I've come across 'Songs of Distant Earth' some time ago (YT) and they become my main reference when trying to get of Pokey some YM-like timbres and moods  ;) I really appreciate your opinion.


Edited by makary, Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:30 PM.


#30 TPA5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:58 PM

I've always enjoyed the high-frequency noises the Pokey was able to generate, it's nice to hear some of them in these songs! I'm digging the album.


Edited by TPA5, Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:59 PM.


#31 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:45 PM

@TPA5:

I think you've just pointed out one of the most challenging issue I face when designing instruments ;) For instance: no high frequency noise = less convincing hi-hats and snares. And overall 'low-fq' impression made by a tune. Sometimes using filtered noise helps a bit, but it's channel consuming. Good to know that hf noises are present. Thanks a lot for the remark!

#32 lotek_style OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:19 AM

 

Thanks!

 

BTW: I've come across 'Songs of Distant Earth' some time ago (YT) and they become my main reference when trying to get of Pokey some YM-like timbres and moods  icon_wink.gif I really appreciate your opinion.

 

Wow thanks :) I'm surprised somebody remembers it at all :)



#33 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:32 PM

@TPA5:

I think you've just pointed out one of the most challenging issue I face when designing instruments ;) For instance: no high frequency noise = less convincing hi-hats and snares. And overall 'low-fq' impression made by a tune. Sometimes using filtered noise helps a bit, but it's channel consuming. Good to know that hf noises are present. Thanks a lot for the remark!


You don't really need the high clocking sounds for most purposes. Controlled timings help to expand the pitch width and sound resolution.... but who cares...

#34 analmux OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:16 PM

but who cares...


I do ;)

#35 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:48 AM

You don't really need the high clocking sounds for most purposes. Controlled timings help to expand the pitch width and sound resolution.... but who cares...

 

I understand that you don't need them for most of your purposes. I need them for mine. I just don't know what are your purposes.  What kind of music do you compose or what kind of instruments do you try to work out?



#36 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:35 PM

I understand that you don't need them for most of your purposes. I need them for mine. I just don't know what are your purposes.  What kind of music do you compose or what kind of instruments do you try to work out?

No decisions yet, just Sound impressions and some arrangements, because there are "slight" differences in the emulations and the real thing... and stuff is missing ...
This one, I did some months ago, before testing RMT Patch 8. Because changes in RMT remove other relevant parts, I'll keep it that way... I planned to put it somewhere into a contest, but I see no longer a reason for that...

Double speed programming, 15kHz only.... no high clocking.


Do you recognize the differences in the soundstyles?

#37 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:52 PM

I like this one a lot. Many original instruments. And the melodic and harmonic side is fantastic! Really. One may find some parts demanding but that's the way it should work. Sorry easy-listening lovers ;)

Finally, I like when instrumental music seems to tell some story and here I got one. I hope you'll keep on writing original tunes.

#38 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:59 AM

Thanks. There were much more ideas. But doing this stuff is always with one eye closed. When editing such sounds, getting directly "100%" response of the real thing, would offer even more precise adjustments... and save a lot of time.

#39 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:00 AM

Yeah. An effective workflow helps a lot. The good thing is that many interesting sounds are possible to be generated by Pokey. Thanks to all those smart improvements made by Analmux for instance.

 

Now let's see how many A8 musicians are willling to use the Patch 8, is there any common demand for further improvements and/or a new tracker etc.



#40 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 6, 2016 12:53 PM

Yeah. An effective workflow helps a lot. The good thing is that many interesting sounds are possible to be generated by Pokey. Thanks to all those smart improvements made by Analmux for instance.
 
Now let's see how many A8 musicians are willling to use the Patch 8, is there any common demand for further improvements and/or a new tracker etc.


You see the real problem? There is absolutely no interest in pushing POKEY to "real" music, by the Atari community. If you realize that the very low "pitch" resolution with POKEY at 15kHz allows that stuff above, you also may realize that POKEY is the most underused chip for the last 4(!) decades, as POKEY offers all those "other" possibilities...
Imagine a Demo - like Arsantica 3 - using a "fitting" soundtrack...

#41 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 6, 2016 1:43 PM

:) I think that the main point is the number of pokey musicians producing tunes nowadays. It's a matter of statistics, not attitude :)

I like Arsantica soundtrack. I hear a lot of effort to provide some new sounds. That's cool.

#42 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 6, 2016 10:37 PM

:) I think that the main point is the number of pokey musicians producing tunes nowadays. It's a matter of statistics, not attitude :)

I like Arsantica soundtrack. I hear a lot of effort to provide some new sounds. That's cool.


Some parts are well done, but they'd fit more to a "one picture with a scrolling line" intro. What's really disturbing, is the breaks in the soundtrack. Caused by missing tools of soundcration...
In theory, you could use a "RMT" with a digitrack together. During the creation of a track , you could switch the usage between more CPU usage and more POKEY usage. Mixing it into a tune, you could have up to 4 times speed replay when just some "ANTIC/GTIA" features would be used, you could use single speed POKEY programming with timing corrections when the CPU is used mainly for calculations or a graphics kernal. Then you could use a digitrack plus two POKEY voices (one 16 bit channel) during Disk I/O ... You could create the complete track according to the needs of a demo and just switch the replay routine on the fly.
And, NO, "Digitrack" doesn't mean to use "64K" of RAM to play a sample. It's about replaying the waveforms repeatingly, just like softsynth does.

#43 snicklin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 3:57 AM

Thank you Emkay and Makary. You've both delivered some great music which sounds so different to other music I've heard on the 8-bit.

 

I used to say back in the 80s that the Pokey chip was the finest chip around (8-bit) but then in latter years I'd got a bit tired of hearing Pokey songs which all sounded similar. I now realise that a lot more can be made from the Pokey. Yes, I've read comments about it being better than what people had said, but it's only in around the last year or perhaps 2 where I've heard tunes where I've thought, "Hmm, they're damn good". The comments were there previously, but the actual songs are now there to be heard.

 

Makary, "Prism" is from another Pokey planet!! It is amazing.



#44 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 4:15 AM

:) I think that the main point is the number of pokey musicians producing tunes nowadays. It's a matter of statistics, not attitude :)

I like Arsantica soundtrack. I hear a lot of effort to provide some new sounds. That's cool.

 

Triace is real musician and Miker, too.., and the main composer of Arsantica 1, Bartek, too.. see Grayscale band...

 

these 3 people composed the soundtrack so far....

 

and yes... it's matter of amount of people composing...



#45 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 4:18 AM

Some parts are well done, but they'd fit more to a "one picture with a scrolling line" intro. What's really disturbing, is the breaks in the soundtrack. Caused by missing tools of soundcration...
In theory, you could use a "RMT" with a digitrack together. During the creation of a track , you could switch the usage between more CPU usage and more POKEY usage. Mixing it into a tune, you could have up to 4 times speed replay when just some "ANTIC/GTIA" features would be used, you could use single speed POKEY programming with timing corrections when the CPU is used mainly for calculations or a graphics kernal. Then you could use a digitrack plus two POKEY voices (one 16 bit channel) during Disk I/O ... You could create the complete track according to the needs of a demo and just switch the replay routine on the fly.
And, NO, "Digitrack" doesn't mean to use "64K" of RAM to play a sample. It's about replaying the waveforms repeatingly, just like softsynth does.

 

it was simply matter of time... we build the demo part by part and there was not enough time dedicated to actually make one soundtrack... further A8 lacks the ability of having constant music playing while loading etc... so one reason more for cuts in the music...

 

but it iwas not main fault by Miker or Triace it was simply my one not dedicating enough and finishing demo 3 month prior deadline... let me say that fex. c64 triple A demos like Oxyron's Coma Light 13 were done over 24 months while last 3-6 months are done for transitions/music/pace of the demo (13 people involved).



#46 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 7:26 AM

but it iwas not main fault by Miker or Triace it was simply my one not dedicating enough and finishing demo 3 month prior deadline... let me say that fex. c64 triple A demos like Oxyron's Coma Light 13 were done over 24 months while last 3-6 months are done for transitions/music/pace of the demo (13 people involved).


It's not their or your fault. It's just the fact that the A8 community doesn't force to have POKEY used as it should. IF POKEY MUSIC was wanted, some Tracker would have been available since decades.

#47 makary OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 5:16 PM

Thank you Emkay and Makary. You've both delivered some great music which sounds so different to other music I've heard on the 8-bit. 

(...)

Makary, "Prism" is from another Pokey planet!! It is amazing.

 

Thanks! Writing "Prism" was interesting: I had most parts finished in an hour or so ;)

 

 

Triace is real musician and Miker, too.., and the main composer of Arsantica 1, Bartek, too.. see Grayscale band...

 

these 3 people composed the soundtrack so far....

 

and yes... it's matter of amount of people composing...

 

I simply expressed my opinion that there is little interest in new trackers because there aren't many A8 musicians nowadays. And I expressed my appreciation of the soundtrack, implicitly people that made it. I hope it is clear. However I don't think I grasp your concept of 'a real musician' as I don't grasp Emkay's concept of 'using pokey as it should'.


Edited by makary, Thu Apr 7, 2016 5:17 PM.


#48 snicklin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 6:00 PM

Personally, I believe that the community would love a new tracker.

 

It has been mentioned that there aren't many A8 musicians. You're always going to be outnumbered by people predominantly games playing and programmers. However, take a look at what WUDSN and MADS have done for programming on the Atari platform. People have learned to code due to these platforms. Perhaps a new tracker would do the same for music?

 

So then I may be asked, "Why hasn't a new Pokey tracker (other than RMT) been created for the PC?". My answer to that is knowledge. Most coders know how to make a beep on the Atari (and the good ones know how to link RMT into their programs), but not many understand waveforms, envelopes, filters and such like.

 

In addition to this, nobody (as far as I know) has ever written a concise set of requirements for such a tracker. There have been a lot of comments spread across many threads, but no one list which somebody with enough knowledge could work from.

 

I think that all the A8 musicians should band together, create a requirements list and a data (file) format and I am sure that somebody or another will pick it up...  you never know! :)



#49 snicklin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 8:22 PM

 

Triace is real musician and Miker, too.., and the main composer of Arsantica 1, Bartek, too.. see Grayscale band...

 

Yes, also great musicians.

 

I think that the other thing to consider is by analysing the question of: Why do we want Pokey music?

 

Is it:

a) To show what the Pokey can do.

b) To put into a game title screen.

c) To be played inside a game.

d) Something else.

 

For me, a lot of the music that is being created is great, but unless you put it into a game or demo then I think that it just waiting to be grabbed and be put into a game or demo. It should be part of a larger production. Don't let that put anyone off from creating such music, but I'd like it to be added into a game at some later stage.

 

Then you need to think, if it is going into a game/demo, will there be enough memory and CPU time left for the rest of the production? The Pokey may be fully exploited, but if a game cannot be built around it, then it isn't being exploited as much as it could be.... it's difficult... there's no easy answer.



#50 snicklin OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 7, 2016 9:30 PM

On another note (excuse the pun!), this looks good:







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