2016 Flashback speculation thread

[Shawn]

Anyone with direct or indirect ties with a product should NEVER be writing a review of said products as it's impossible for them to offer a 100 percent honest and unbiased opinion.

[bmadgames]

Anyone with direct or indirect ties with a product should NEVER be writing a review of said products as it's impossible for them to offer a 100 percent honest and unbiased opinion.

At least Bill acknowledges clearly that he has a connection to At Games and his reviews are fairly reasonable. I'm not sure why every retro product that comes out, people trash. Obviously for a few bucks, it's not going to be that great and it sounds like At Games is going to step up their game next year. I'm not trying to defend them, but I don't know that any other companies are lining up to create these fun, although flawed, experiences. Original hardware is always better because it is the gold standard.

[Inky]

Anyone with direct or indirect ties with a product should NEVER be writing a review of said products as it's impossible for them to offer a 100 percent honest and unbiased opinion.

 

That having been said, Bill is a longtime member of the Atariage community, and I trust his judgement. And at least he discloses his ties.

[Flojomojo]

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/at-games-sega-genesis-classic-game-console-clone-war-fatality

 

I don't know if he's planning on reviewing the Atari flashbacks or not, but it would be interesting to read his impressions of those as well.

I doubt it ... Jeremy Parish is an NES kid and his opinion about Atari games should be considered irrelevant -- they did a truly embarrassing "Retronauts" podcast about Intellivision in which it was clear he didn't know jack about pre-crash things. His NES Classic Mini review should be worthwhile, though.

 

Anyone with direct or indirect ties with a product should NEVER be writing a review of said products as it's impossible for them to offer a 100 percent honest and unbiased opinion.

 

Bill Logiduice wrote a disclaimer about his ties to AtGames and he was fairly critical of the product, it's not like he's an empty marketing suit who doesn't play the games.

 

Nobody really has a "100 percent honest and unbiased opinion" about anything, we all come to this stuff with our own ideas about what is important and what makes something fun. I'm old enough to still think "wow, 40 Genesis games for a dollar each in a thing that fits in my pocket!" which is a pretty worthless opinion in 2016. Others are like, "original hardware hooked up to my childhood CRT, with rare games on cartridges with printed manuals and clamshell boxes and full backwards compatibility, or it's GARBAGE" which is similarly impractical.

 

None of these gadgets are as good as emulation on a semi-modern computer, which is unfortunate but not worth hating on. Here's what I said on Jeremy's USGamer review:

I bought the 2016 handheld, which is the same thing only with its own screen, an SD card slot, and no cartridge port or controller ports. It's not great, but it's a sweet little play-anything Genesis for forty bucks. Agreed they need to step up their game but I don't think these are quite as bad as Professor Parish's hateful review would suggest.

It's a shame that Sonic the Hedgehog sounds like ass, because everyone knows it so well.

 

I expect Bill's review of the Atari Flashback Portable to be honest and complete, even if we have to read between the lines about compatibility problems.

[Flojomojo]

Just got Atari flashback vol 1 from the PSN store. No volume 2 yet as far as I can tell

 

...and it's buggered. Took my money, but no download. FFFFFF

 

Edit: got it going from the library, shouldn't have to do that but it's going now.

 

Nice high res menus, odd to see the AtGames logo on a console. Infuriating to have a small subset of arcade games next to so much 2600 dross. I'm going to play the Ratchet and Clank remake which I just got for the same price and meditate on whether I'm really a retro gamer anymore.

[Andromeda Stardust]

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/at-games-sega-genesis-classic-game-console-clone-war-fatality

 

I don't know if he's planning on reviewing the Atari flashbacks or not, but it would be interesting to read his impressions of those as well.

See? Atgames is literally sabatoging their reputation by releasing junk. My SRT is flawless on the Genny and SNES fronts. Why not get a Genesis-on-a-chip that actually works?

[Shawn]

 

When shifting around a pair of resistor values would help fix such a major flaw in a product it says a ton about a company that isn't willing to make such a minor fix.

[Asaki]

When shifting around a pair of resistor values would help fix such a major flaw in a product it says a ton about a company that isn't willing to make such a minor fix.

If you've never heard the AtGames unit, this is not even close to the problems it exhibits.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Radica unit is basically a Genesis-on-a-chip, whilst AtGames is running in emulation via FPGA, so a simple circuitry rewire wouldn't be able to fix anything here.

[Atariboy]

Hopefully Onmode chimes in since he has tracked the particulars on these things, but I can state with confidence that the AtGames lineup of Genesis products is not running on a FPGA.

 

There's no advantage to such a setup for them and even if there was, it's a very expensive route for them to go. They simply couldn't price these products as low as they do if they were incorporating a FPGA into them.

 

That said, if it was running on such hardware, not only would it then not involve emulation since it makes no sense under such conditions to go that route compared to just directly replicating the Genesis hardware itself on the FPGA (Why replicate more powerful hardware just to accomplish emulation of a Genesis when a cheaper and less capable FPGA could just replicate the Genesis itself?), but it would also be ideal from the standpoint of fixing it.

 

It would be a simple fix that just involves updating the software that's telling the FPGA how to set itself up. They're reprogrammable which is the entire point of them. So in essence it's even simpler than a hardware modification.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Atariboy

[Moo]

Then they should make the fpga software open source and make the software updatable via sd card.

[Atariboy]

Again, it's not a FPGA. And it's also not emulation, so there's literally nothing here to release an update for.

 

Looking at the definitive source on this information, their Genesis related products for years now have been utilizing what amounts to a 'Genesis on a chip'. A Genesis equivalent of sorts to the 2600 on a chip that powered the Atari Flashback 2, the NOAC chips that power Famiclones and such, the C64 chip that was in the C64 DTV, etc.

 

it's a system on a chip which integrates all components of the original system onto a single integrated circuit. It's essentially a miniaturized hardware replica of the original hardware, albeit imperfectly reproduced in this instance. It is not running on a field-programmable gate array and it is not utilizing software emulation.

 

The advantages to such a thing are that it's cheap to produce in quantity and it's also efficient from a power standpoint, which is an attractive proposition for their handheld systems. The disadvantages are that it seems to be an expensive proposition to make revisions down the road to it, hence we see the same issues year after year since they're loath to redo it in order to make enhancements due to the cost.

 

AtGames would be fools to utilize a FPGA. They're very expensive by comparison and their specialized features hold no benefit to their business model. In the world of videogaming, I doubt there's been any use of a FPGA outside of hobbyist projects like the Retro USB AVS.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Atariboy

[Andromeda Stardust]

Again, it's not a FPGA. And it's also not emulation, so there's literally nothing here to release an update for.

 

Looking at the definitive source on this information, their Genesis related products for years now have been utilizing what amounts to a 'Genesis on a chip'. A Genesis equivalent of sorts to the 2600 on a chip that powered the Atari Flashback 2, the NOAC chips that power Famiclones and such, the C64 chip that was in the C64 DTV, etc.

 

it's a system on a chip which integrates all components of the original system onto a single integrated circuit. It's essentially a miniaturized hardware replica of the original hardware, albeit imperfectly reproduced in this instance. It is not running on a field-programmable gate array and it is not utilizing software emulation.

 

The advantages to such a thing are that it's cheap to produce in quantity and it's also efficient from a power standpoint, which is an attractive proposition for their handheld systems. The disadvantages are that it seems to be an expensive proposition to make revisions down the road to it, hence we see the same issues year after year since they're loath to redo it in order to make enhancements due to the cost.

 

AtGames would be fools to utilize a FPGA. They're very expensive by comparison and their specialized features hold no benefit to their business model. In the world of videogaming, I doubt there's been any use of a FPGA outside of hobbyist projects like the Retro USB AVS.

Yes, we get that they used a System on a Chip setup. Why then does the Super Retro Trio, Retron3, FC Twin, and numerous other clones which have Genesis slots exhibit nearly flawless compatibility with none of the glaring issues? SNES on a Chip and Genesis on a Chip appear to be nearly flawless now. Only the NES on a Chip, which is likely still using a decades outdated design, is still hit or miss.

 

If they're using a SOAC, why don't Atgames just ditch their own custom fab that sucks and source their SOAC Genesis clones from the same Chinese factories that supply chips to Yobo, Retrobit, and Hyperkin? Nearly flawless A/V and full support for on cart SRAM saves. Hell, my SRT even plays Sega Master System games.

[Keatah]

I don't doubt there's some internal politics involved in switching sources (of the SOAC). And of course accuracy and faithfulness to the real deal depends on how much time and effort is expended.

 

There comes a point when good enough is really indeed good enough. We gameplayer's "good enough" is likely different from the manufacturer's interpretation. Hell, it *is* different because we're here discussing it!

[onmode-ky]

When shifting around a pair of resistor values would help fix such a major flaw in a product it says a ton about a company that isn't willing to make such a minor fix.

That video was about addressing the issues of a 2004 Radica Games product, in which the amplifier seemed to be corrupting the waveforms of the audio output (if I recall correctly, sounding like that is what happens when your amplifying circuity chops off the peaks of the waves). I don't know if Radica addressed the issue on their subsequent Genesis systems--this model was their first one--but Radica was out of the plug-n-play industry after 2006. That year, they were bought by Mattel, and they've been functioning as an electronics R&D subdivision of sorts for the past 10 years.

 

AtGames' Genesis audio issue is not related to amplification circuitry, but rather something going screwy in the audio signal generation itself. The channels don't play in the same key.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Radica unit is basically a Genesis-on-a-chip, whilst AtGames is running in emulation via FPGA, so a simple circuitry rewire wouldn't be able to fix anything here.

As Atariboy noted, both Radica and AtGames used/use a Genesis-on-a-chip implementation. In fact, it's possible that the two are from the same lineage; if you check out my plug-n-play info website's AtGames section or my original posts at the end of page 2 of the old AtGames AtariAge forum topic, AtGames originally (i.e., in 2005) planned to run Genesis emulation software on their ARM-architecture Titan chip (the chip eventually used from 2011 onwards in their Atari/INTV/CV Flashback systems), but then they filed a lawsuit against Radica Games. Basically, AtGames believed their license from Sega was supposed to be exclusive, yet here was Radica also with a Sega license for plug-n-play Genesis systems. There was some sort of settlement eventually, whose details are naturally confidential, but afterwards, we had Radica out of plug-n-play entirely and AtGames using a Genesis-on-a-chip instead of their original emulation-on-an-ARM plan. The mention of a "technology transfer" in a former AtGames engineer's resume suggests the possibility that AtGames' Genesis-on-a-chip technology was derived from Radica's (for more specific details on all this, refer to my links earlier in this paragraph). Somewhere in that development, though, an audio bug snuck through and made raucous history.

 

Hopefully Onmode chimes in since he has tracked the particulars on these things, but I can state with confidence that the AtGames lineup of Genesis products is not running on a FPGA.

Chimes away! Yes, FPGA is basically the equivalent of manufacturing cars by hand. You get great flexbility, but it's not what you want to go with for high volumes. Oh, and thanks for linking to my website! I'll bet that helped a lot of people with their insomnia.

 

Yes, we get that they used a System on a Chip setup. Why then does the Super Retro Trio, Retron3, FC Twin, and numerous other clones which have Genesis slots exhibit nearly flawless compatibility with none of the glaring issues? SNES on a Chip and Genesis on a Chip appear to be nearly flawless now. Only the NES on a Chip, which is likely still using a decades outdated design, is still hit or miss.

Cooking has been around for thousands of years. That doesn't mean there aren't people in the here and now who screw it up--look at me! The Genesis-on-a-chip implementations we're talking about were developed independently, so they naturally don't share the same bugs (or lack thereof).

 

If they're using a SOAC, why don't Atgames just ditch their own custom fab that sucks and source their SOAC Genesis clones from the same Chinese factories that supply chips to Yobo, Retrobit, and Hyperkin?

It's most likely all about cost. If you own your own Italian restaurants, why would you buy other restaurants' lasagnas instead of saving a ton of money by making your own? AtGames makes their own chips. Rather than "Why don't they [spend the money to] source their chips from someone else?", the question is really "Why don't they fix their chips already?" (the answer to which most likely also being related to cost analysis). Of course, the question is moot now, since it seems like they're finally ditching their GOAC model in next year's products.

 

By the way, you used the abbreviation "SRT" earlier. It took me a few minutes to figure out what it meant, because "SRT" normally means Super Robot Taisen to me.

 

onmode-ky

Edited October 16, 2016 by onmode-ky

[Andromeda Stardust]

By the way, you used the abbreviation "SRT" earlier. It took me a few minutes to figure out what it meant, because "SRT" normally means Super Robot Taisen to me.

 

onmode-ky

Sorry bout that. I always try to use the full name of the device at least once in my post, then I acronym it afterwords.

[Atariboy]

Yes, we get that they used a System on a Chip setup. Why then does the Super Retro Trio, Retron3, FC Twin, and numerous other clones which have Genesis slots exhibit nearly flawless compatibility with none of the glaring issues? SNES on a Chip and Genesis on a Chip appear to be nearly flawless now. Only the NES on a Chip, which is likely still using a decades outdated design, is still hit or miss.

 

If they're using a SOAC, why don't Atgames just ditch their own custom fab that sucks and source their SOAC Genesis clones from the same Chinese factories that supply chips to Yobo, Retrobit, and Hyperkin? Nearly flawless A/V and full support for on cart SRAM saves. Hell, my SRT even plays Sega Master System games.

 

Why ask me for?

 

I was just correcting someone, I wasn't defending AtGames.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Atariboy

[Shawn]

That video was about addressing the issues of a 2004 Radica Games product, in which the amplifier seemed to be corrupting the waveforms of the audio output (if I recall correctly, sounding like that is what happens when your amplifying circuity chops off the peaks of the waves). I don't know if Radica addressed the issue on their subsequent Genesis systems--this model was their first one--but Radica was out of the plug-n-play industry after 2006. That year, they were bought by Mattel, and they've been functioning as an electronics R&D subdivision of sorts for the past 10 years.

 

AtGames' Genesis audio issue is not related to amplification circuitry, but rather something going screwy in the audio signal generation itself. The channels don't play in the same key.

 

 

Thanks for the info. I had no idea the AtGames problem was a much deeper rooted overall design flaw. Year after year and they keep using such a flawed design. What a shame they have yet to give a shit enough to fix it and knowingly keep pumping out the garbage.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Why ask me for?

 

I was just correcting someone, I wasn't defending AtGames.

It was kind of rhetorical in nature, not really directed at anyone. I'm sure Bill would have a logical explanation though.

[Asaki]

As Atariboy noted, both Radica and AtGames used/use a Genesis-on-a-chip implementation. ... Somewhere in that development, though, an audio bug snuck through and made raucous history.

Weird, I could've sworn that I read that AtGames was using emulation for their Sega stuff...maybe not FPGA, but still emulated.

 

I also remember reading something about how one of the original devs from Sega came to help fix the audio, but they didn't have time to make it perfect before release. I remember wondering how bad it must've sounded before Sega stepped in.

[Bill Loguidice]

I expect Bill's review of the Atari Flashback Portable to be honest and complete, even if we have to read between the lines about compatibility problems.

 

I already have an idea of what I'm going to write once I get the final hardware (keeping in mind I already have near final hardware). It plays the built-in games just about perfectly, but unfortunately, the SD card expansion can only be thought of as a bonus, because it has limited compatibility.

 

To address the other "complaints" (not sure I want to call them that) about me reviewing AtGames stuff, I can fully understand the issue some may have with it. I let the reviews speak for themselves, though, and, while my "privileged" position may give me insight into why certain things are the way they are (thus being slightly more forgiving than I might otherwise be as an outsider), I obviously have no issue with pointing out the flaws. That's also why I also include plenty of videos. It's all there out in the open, pluses and minuses, for anyone to draw their own conclusions, which I think is all anyone can ask of a review.

 

I'm hoping to review Atari Flashback Classics Vol. 1 and 2 for PS4 soon as well. For that, I picked the game lists and did the preliminary product spec. I'm listed in the credits under "AtGames." I had zero involvement in the actual development, though, which of course was handled by Code Mystics, mostly under the direction of Atari, with limited input from AtGames (and by proxy, even more limited input from me). That one is going to be a bit tougher to review, because there are no notable flaws that I'm aware of at this point, but I'll still give it a go, take it or leave it.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Thanks for the info. I had no idea the AtGames problem was a much deeper rooted overall design flaw. Year after year and they keep using such a flawed design. What a shame they have yet to give a shit enough to fix it and knowingly keep pumping out the garbage.

 

Part of the problem is to this point (and for the foreseeable future) AtGames engineers all of their own stuff, so even if there are better options out there, it's not really an option for them. Fortunately, after this batch of products the AtGames stuff will be on an entirely new hardware base that will address all of the existing issues and more, while, in most cases, adding features. There's no guarantee that any of them will be "perfect," obviously, but they will finally be better, with the audio issues on the Sega stuff put to bed once and for all, among other things.

[Bill Loguidice]

Weird, I could've sworn that I read that AtGames was using emulation for their Sega stuff...maybe not FPGA, but still emulated.

 

I also remember reading something about how one of the original devs from Sega came to help fix the audio, but they didn't have time to make it perfect before release. I remember wondering how bad it must've sounded before Sega stepped in.

 

None of that is true. It's a system on a chip (but of course there's a software layer as well). There was no outside help from Sega. It's an audio bug that wasn't meant to be there, and was not a flaw in the original design. It was an avoidable mistake. Unfortunately, it was not practical to fix the mistake once it was introduced. Fortunately, that hardware will no longer be used after this year (and yes, I agree, that's long overdue).

[Atariboy]

That one is going to be a bit tougher to review, because there are no notable flaws that I'm aware of at this point, but I'll still give it a go, take it or leave it.

 

Chances are that this issue isn't present, but if you're up for suggestions, one thing that you could check up on is if the score for Red Baron is retained.

 

The Code Mystics developed Atari compilation for the Nintendo DS that included it doesn't properly retain the high score data. It will be there momentarily when you reload Red Baron, but will disappear within a second or two.

 

Strange bug and surely an easy fix for Code Mystics that they must've caught onto by now (Battlezone on the companion volume on the DS, a game which I imagine ran on common hardware to Battlezone in the arcade and thus is powered by a common emulator on the DS, works like it should). But it slipped by them once, so you never know if this emulator which likely is based on that earlier work, may retain this issue.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Atariboy

[onmode-ky]

Weird, I could've sworn that I read that AtGames was using emulation for their Sega stuff...maybe not FPGA, but still emulated.

 

I also remember reading something about how one of the original devs from Sega came to help fix the audio, but they didn't have time to make it perfect before release. I remember wondering how bad it must've sounded before Sega stepped in.

You did not imagine reading that. I know, because I wrote the post that you're thinking of, here at AtariAge in August 2008 (that post is also the first thing in the previously mentioned AtGames section of my plug-n-play website). It is true, but only to an extent. Toshi Morita, Technical Director at Sega of America in the 90s, consulted for AtGames (actually for Digital Media Cartridge, which is either a subdivision or an affiliate of AtGames) in mid-2005, and his work was related to emulating the Genesis on ARM architecture. However, that was mid-2005, and the AtGames-Radica litigation I mentioned earlier was not resolved until later. His work was part of the original emulation-on-an-ARM plan, whereas AtGames' actual released Genesis products most likely all ended up built on their later Genesis-on-a-chip strategy. We know that in 2008 (note that this is after the litigation had been settled--of course, we in the gaming commmunity didn't even know the litigation had happened until 2013), AtGames' products were being marketed with the name "RedKid" attached; this is the name of their GOAC implementation, as was finally understood in 2013.

 

Having written that post in 2008, it's partly my fault that there is a continuing belief that AtGames' Genesis systems are built around an ARM processor running an emulation layer. That was the information that was publicly available at the time. For five years, that was all we knew. It was my 2013 posts in that forum thread (and also replicated in the AtGames section of my site) which led to the realization, at long last, that AtGames had been using a GOAC all this time, and that it may be descended to some degree from Radica's GOAC.

 

By the way, I was at a Target store earlier today, and on a shelf above their stock of AtGames' 2016 hardware was a conspicuous cardboard display base for their PS4 and XB1 Atari Flashback Classics releases. It was empty, but still, it was there, smack in the middle of what appears to be the beginnings of a Target retro gaming section. Hangers above the shelves offered various trinkets emblazoned with gaming IP designs, like Sonic socks, NES wallets, Game Boy keychains, and Pac-Man stress relievers (those soft things you squeeze when you've had too much onmode-ky text to read). I wonder if that's where they'll stock the NES Classic Edition and Retro-Bit Generations, too.

 

onmode-ky

[Asaki]

You did not imagine reading that. I know, because I wrote the post that you're thinking of, here at AtariAge in August 2008 (that post is also the first thing in the previously mentioned AtGames section of my plug-n-play website).

 

...AtGames' products were being marketed with the name "RedKid" attached; this is the name of their GOAC implementation, as was finally understood in 2013.

Ohh, well that explains it, then =)

 

I'm still kind of bummed that those RedKid multi-carts never got released, I was really looking forward to them.