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A new Commodore 64 computer and gaming handheld are coming via Indiegogo

the 64 the 64sx

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#1 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:09 PM

Here's the link to THE 64 and THE 64SX project: https://www.indiegog...dheld-console#/

 

I posted my full thoughts over at Armchair Arcade: http://armchairarcad...ose-skepticism/

 

Needless to say, it's not a good thing when Retro VGS/Coleco Chameleon are mentioned in a blog post.


Edited by Bill Loguidice, Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:10 PM.


#2 VectorGamer OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:24 PM

A 300+ page thread is born



#3 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:52 PM

I saw that Vanja Utne (Mermaid) posted a series of technical questions to them, but the only response she got so far was "we will answer you ASAP".

 

In Swedish we have a proverb that goes "never sell the hide before the bear is shot". Do you have that one or a similar one in English too?

 

(Jean de La Fontaine in the 17th century, translated to Dutch, Norwegian etc as well so it probably exists in most languages)


Edited by carlsson, Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:57 PM.


#4 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:00 PM

People are going to be cautious right now, but the background of Darren Melbourne as one of the people who pulled together the C64DTV means this isn't a Coleco Chameleon-style scam or at least that it's not intended to be (as to if the Coleco Chameleon was initially meant to be a scam... your guess and all that). And just because that was a slow motion car crash it doesn't mean that any future Indiegogo projects from other people are merely lining up on the debris and flooring it...

They're claiming a working prototype even if it's not been shown yet and a C64-specific device'll be far easier than the multi-format claims made of the Coleco Chameleon as well; it could just be an existing C64 FPGA core with tweaks planned for the hardware, that wasn't even an option when the C64DTV came out but i think there's three available now which are all significantly better on the compatibility front?

#5 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:01 PM

In Swedish we have a proverb that goes "never sell the hide before the bear is shot". Do you have that one or a similar one in English too?


Don't count your chickens before they're hatched is an equivalent.

#6 save2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:02 PM

Am dead tired of Kickstarter-type-deals by now. Pass. Either do your market research, draw up a business plan, take out a loan and produce something that will be sold/supported through normal channels like everyone else has for the last 200 years or not. Sick of this "modern" chicken-shit way of doing business today. It's so 2010's.   :mad:
 
Waiting on at least three long overdue projects as it is, despite monthly or semi-monthly spammy e-mails with little content and broken promise after broken promise.
 
Was going to comment about how Jens @ Individual Computers already released a C64 replacement motherboard, but may be sold out already. And there's been a case/keyboard combo recently also. Just seems like the wheel is getting re-invented once again. And this time, requires $150k in order to maybe make it happen?  sigh



#7 VectorGamer OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:04 PM

Still waiting on my World 1-1 DVD



#8 cimerians OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:15 PM

I sent them a tweet telling them what I think. Basically not to forget indiegogo and kickstarter are not places to SELL your soon-to-be product. Those places are not stores. Your trying to get investors to FUND your idea. There's a difference. (The lack of transparency is the biggest problem right now)

 

So far that whole indiegogo page was no better or worse than a typical TV ad.



#9 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:56 PM

Basically you're right, but most people consider crowdfunding a kind of pre-pay group buy these days.



#10 AtarinDave OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:15 PM

Welp, we shall see how this plays out. No way I'm donating, though. Seriously, I have a feeling this is going to fail just as bad or worse than the Chameleon. The idea sounds awesome, I would love to see this happen, but.... ugh... sounds too good to be true, mate.



#11 galax OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:27 PM

The company behind this started in August 2015, Darren Melbourne was made a director in March, and then all the other directors resigned: https://beta.compani...745704/officers
 
http://the64.computer/about/ Copyright © 2016 Retro Games Ltd, Knaresborough, North Yorkshire, Company Number 09745704
 
Two of the directors (Chris Smith and the founder Paul Andrews) were involved in the ZX Vega, and just resigned from that company too: https://beta.compani...831435/officers
 
Chris Smith and Paul Andrews' names have been retroactively removed from last year's Vega Indiegogo project page (how is that even allowed?)
 
Before: https://web.archive....spectrum-vega#/
 

From the Vega Team : Paul Andrews, David Levy, Sir Clive Sinclair & Chris Smith

The Vega has been developed by Chris Smith, a former ZX Spectrum games developer who is the world's leading expert on Sinclair Spectrum technology and author of the definitive technical book "The ZX Spectrum ULA: How to design a microcomputer".
 
The Sinclair Spectrum Vega has been designed and developed by Chris Smith, who is the world’s leading expert on the technology behind the Sinclair ZX Spectrum range of computers.
 
Chris Smith – is a former ZX Spectrum games developer who is the world's leading expert on Sinclair Spectrum technology. Chris is also the author of the definitive technical book "The ZX Spectrum ULA: How to design a microcomputer".

Paul Andrews – Is a producer and businessman who has worked extensively within the media industry, including games development companies and book publishing and distribution. He has been involved with retro computer games, as well as phone and console games for many years.

 
After: https://www.indiegog...x-spectrum-vega
 

The Vega has been developed by a former ZX Spectrum games developer who is the world's leading expert on Sinclair Spectrum technology.

The Sinclair Spectrum Vega has been designed and developed by the world’s leading expert on the technology behind the Sinclair ZX Spectrum range of computers.

 
Not sure what's going on there really, wouldn't give any of them any of my money right now.

#12 godslabrat OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:16 PM

At this point, being on IndieGoGo is enough to make me pass. Every project I've ever followed on Kickstarter has delivered. Every project I've ever followed on IGG didn't. The pattern is pretty consistent.

#13 SwampFox56 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:11 PM

This is something I'm actually kind of interested in... But since the whole "RetroVGS/Coleco Chameleon" debacle... Well... it made it so I can't justify crowdfunding anything anymore. 



#14 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:14 PM

At this point, being on IndieGoGo is enough to make me pass. Every project I've ever followed on Kickstarter has delivered. Every project I've ever followed on IGG didn't. The pattern is pretty consistent.

 

Agreed. I especially find it suspicious for something like this considering how well Commodore 64-related projects have done on Kickstarter. It's clear the audience is there. The only reason to avoid Kickstarter for Indiegogo in this case is because you're not ready to meet Kickstarter's modest requirements.  



#15 galax OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:16 PM

Indiegogo also offers the 'flexible funding' option which is being used here, so there's no way for the crowdfunding to fail. It has become just another way to market a product, rather than a source of investment.

#16 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:17 PM

This is something I'm actually kind of interested in... But since the whole "RetroVGS/Coleco Chameleon" debacle... Well... it made it so I can't justify crowdfunding anything anymore. 

 

That's the thing that sucks about this. The idea is perfect, and, relatively speaking, it's dirt cheap. Too bad they have no proof as of yet that it's real.



#17 Newsdee OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:20 PM

They are not offering anything new.

Individual Computers sells the Turbo Chameleon 64 (no relationship to the Coleco) which is a very good FPGA C64, with great SID simulation (both versions) and lots of configuration options.

http://www.syntiac.com/chameleon.html

They also sell a docking station that allows connecting DB9 joysticks and keyboards (c64 and Amiga):

http://www.vesalia.d...ameleondock.htm

Both can be fit inside a case:
MSuF2ui.jpg

They are more expensive than the $150 the guys is asking on the IGG campaign, but these exist right now.

Edited by Newsdee, Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:21 PM.


#18 Bill Loguidice OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:20 PM

Indiegogo also offers the 'flexible funding' option which is being used here, so there's no way for the crowdfunding to fail. It has become just another way to market a product, rather than a source of investment.

 

Yeah, it's a horrible option, but I suppose in the actual spirit of crowdfunding. Even though it fits the spirit, obviously there's the issue of if you really need x amount of dollars to pull something off, then why does getting to keep much less than that make sense? It's investing with zero return.



#19 Newsdee OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:22 PM

 
Yeah, it's a horrible option, but I suppose in the actual spirit of crowdfunding. Even though it fits the spirit, obviously there's the issue of if you really need x amount of dollars to pull something off, then why does getting to keep much less than that make sense? It's investing with zero return.


Is it investing though? It's not like the backers become shareholders, they would only get a product out of it, right?

#20 galax OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:26 PM

Is it investing though? It's not like the backers become shareholders, they would only get a product out of it, right?


Not all investors get equity, crowdfunders are more like debtholders than shareholders, except without any rights except to hope that their debt is paid off with the product they agreed to, at a time that is convenient to the borrower, and with no additional interest no matter how late the payment.



#21 Newsdee OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:31 PM

without any rights except to hope that their debt is paid off at with the product they agreed to, at a time that is convenient to the borrower with no additional interest.


So the difference with preordering a product is that the company might default on their obligation, but it wouldn't count as deceptive sales. I guess it means they could refund you the money (if you're lucky) and you can't sue then for not delivering the product.

Edited by Newsdee, Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:31 PM.


#22 galax OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:34 PM

So the difference with preordering a product is that the company might default on their obligation, but it wouldn't count as deceptive sales. I guess it means they could refund you the money (if you're lucky) and you can't sue then for not delivering the product.


Yes, the advantage over pre-ordering for the seller is that there is no risk. The main benefit for the buyer is that a product may get made that otherwise couldn't exist, if the seller was unable to raise the necessary startup capital from banks, venture capital, etc.



#23 SwampFox56 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:00 PM

 

That's the thing that sucks about this. The idea is perfect, and, relatively speaking, it's dirt cheap. Too bad they have no proof as of yet that it's real.

 

Well... it's not really the lack of proof that bothers me. I guess I just don't want to crowd fund things anymore. Ever since Coleco, Retro, whatever the hell the fake thing was called - It's made me feel like a fool. Rather than have to worry about whether or not something is legit... I just don't want to bother anymore. 

And I know that scammers, products that don't come through, etc are just a fraction of what appears on Kickstarter or Indiegogo. But I feel, now, that everything's a ripoff. Anyways, maybe that feeling will pass - but for now. I have no interested in crowd-funding. I'll definitely follow ideas and products I'm interested in - but I can't justify just giving people money right now.



#24 OLD CS1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:04 PM

I like the graphics on the page.

 

I would rather have a C64 Reloaded, but I missed my chance and I have not been able to find one.



#25 AtarinDave OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:34 PM

 

Well... it's not really the lack of proof that bothers me. I guess I just don't want to crowd fund things anymore. Ever since Coleco, Retro, whatever the hell the fake thing was called - It's made me feel like a fool. Rather than have to worry about whether or not something is legit... I just don't want to bother anymore. 

And I know that scammers, products that don't come through, etc are just a fraction of what appears on Kickstarter or Indiegogo. But I feel, now, that everything's a ripoff. Anyways, maybe that feeling will pass - but for now. I have no interested in crowd-funding. I'll definitely follow ideas and products I'm interested in - but I can't justify just giving people money right now.

 

I feel you, man. The Coleco Chameleon was a huge disappointment for me, but what makes me frustrated is how awesome the idea is, and how awesome it would be to have cartridge based gaming back. But they shot themselves in the foot. :P

 

However, on the subject of the C64, I wouldn't pass it off too soon. It is possible that something can come out of this. We just gotta wait and see. My hopes are not very high, though. :^P






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