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Is anyone else concerned about copies?


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#51 Albert OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 12:35 PM

Pressure Gauge sounds like a fun game and I'd love to be able to get a copy. If you can get it in the AA store, that would be excellent.


If John gives his permission, I'd be glad to make copies available for anyone who's interested.

..Al

#52 AceHart OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 12:48 PM

 

It's clearly home made. Not built by Atariage. $160 for a fake?

 

 

I personally hate repros and refuse to add them to my collection. That means I'll never own much of the really tough stuff but in my mind if you have the repro, you don't really own it anyway. I think all the repro boxes and games that are being produced seriously detriments the integrity of the hobby. Some repros are easy to spot, but others are nearly impossible; especially if the seller takes pics from certain angles. This is just setting people up to be taken advantage of in my opinion.

 

When it comes to hard to find carts where the ROMs can be found, makes the most sense, I think, to put the ROM onto the Harmony or some such. Then you can play it, and forget the cart or box until / unless the original can be found. (Why pay, for example > $100 for a fake of Princess Rescue when you can get the ROM for free?)

 

Of course, this has been going on since games have been out. It's nothing new.  https://atariage.com...emFilterID=2600

 

Model railroading has a similar problem, although obviously there's no ROM to be found, since everything is hardware. Some stuff is clearly labeled by mfg., year, a reproduction mark, etc. and none of this diminishes the value of the original, as everyone knows they are not originals. Whereas there are also some disreputables who modify existing stock and/or make outright fakes and then sell them as rares for big bucks. Yuck!



#53 madhatter667 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 2:47 PM

 

of course you don't care, you're not a collector. For us that actually are and have the super rare games it does matter, and mark my word 5-10 years from now, will matter a lot.

This is no different if you collect stamps, etc. You enjoy them and it's your love for what you collect that makes it fun. But when people start copying stamps, then finding that super rare stamp years ago, making a great find, and hunt, is now not so great. It's fun to own original items that are now hard to find. This isn't an investment for most, but having a killer collection is half the fun.

 

I know hallmark'y after I read it too :)

Funny...I own several systems, own many games for each (and have sold more off than I own in desperation at times, much to my regret. 22+ systems once upon a time). I collect for the systems. I find this statement entirely presumptuous, especially given the nature of this website/forum. Now, if you mean that I don't buy with the notion of appreciating in value, yeah, maybe. I've seen some of my titles go way up in price. There are repros of them out there too. The price is still stupid high, and I still wouldn't sell it (want to buy a real Dracula X, with box for $200?). I think there are more Dracula X repros on eBay last I looked than real ones....and pretty much all the ones on Etsy are. 

 

This is why repros need to be labeled as such. Clear disclosure. I have repro Atari titles that are stupid rare, or prototypes that I have gotten from members on this very site, and I thoroughly enjoy them. Are they valuable? To me they are, I paid decent money to get them...because I wanted them in *my* collection. To some other members they may be...even with a clearly stated reproduction status. I don't believe they devalue the original items...because they are not the original items, and I do not try and pass them off as the original items. With that approach, it's hard to negatively impact another's collection.

 

"The hunt" as it is, is mostly done online these days (at least in my experience... networking, and browsing auctions, and sale threads)... which you have to be wary about *to begin with*. Back in the day...and I am talking like something between 2002-2005 I bought a copy of Tengen Airball... which is an unreleased game for the NES. It was in a solid black Tengen cart, no label...much like the real ones were (I think). Even then, I bid cautiously because of the possibility of a fake. When I cracked the case open...know what I found? a sticker on a eprom that said "ROM dumped by xxxx 2000@email.com." or something like that (been years since I opened it). In other words...a very well disguised *fake* that visually passed. People doing this is nothing new; diligence has always been part of this game.

 

There is a difference between making something available so folks can play it on the real hardware (which is preferred in my mind, and experience), and blatantly trying to rip someone off. I like the art and aesthetics of individual cartridges, though I seriously see the merit in flashcarts for ease of playability, space saving, and access.

 

Having a killer collection has nothing to do with its monetary value (because then you are a seller, a speculator etc.), and everything to do with your personal enjoyment of what you have. If someone selling repro games somehow lessens that enjoyment for you, I can't argue that. 


Edited by madhatter667, Wed May 11, 2016 3:16 PM.


#54 KaeruYojimbo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 2:56 PM

 

of course you don't care, you're not a collector. For us that actually are and have the super rare games it does matter, and mark my word 5-10 years from now, will matter a lot.

 

I'm a collector who owns a few super rare games and seeing repros of them doesn't diminish their value to me, nor does seeing reproduction of super rare game I don't own make the originals any less desirable.

 

Not sure what I should do here-- he's making money on my product, but as I said, I haven't taken a royalty in years.  I'm not sure how to say his claims are invalid.  And, I am not sure I can really tell him "hey, you don't have my permission", since the ROM is available and the game isn't making a royalty anyway.  I doubt he'll make any money; nobody really cares about this game anymore.

 

I feel that if anything is going to shut him down, it would be the author of a completely original game going after him for selling unauthorized copies. Even if it doesn't, you should still protect what's yours.



#55 Atari8bitCarts OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 4:02 PM

Dial it back, bud.

 

Really, are we in the 70's or something.

Again, Repro's are NOT the issue. Pawning one off, by making an exact copy, is the issue.Simple, mark the box, label and instructions stating so.

Else you want to fool someone.



#56 madhatter667 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 4:18 PM

I've seen a pretty good handful of the NES/SNES stuff done this way. Most of the time it is just the cartridge...but "Reproduction" is usually on the label somewhere. The other thing I have seen done is to take it, and use artwork/labeling that in no way resembles the original stuff. A lot of the homebrew/hack games made to cart are done this way. First, they aren't in the official library. Others may not have been released in the US (Japanese games translated and ported over to 72 pin boards). Those are a bit more obvious. When you run into things like Bubble Bobble Part 2 repros, or Hagane reprs, or Castlevania Dracula X repros... it gets a little harder, as those are basically just well done pirate carts (those all had US releases, just difficult to find). Still, I'd bite if the price is right. They fill a playable gap in the collection. It can be argued that there is some sort of moral line when dealing with these sorts of things (ie: do you reproduce a cart that was available in your region, but is stoopid rare?). 



#57 hizzy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 5:01 PM

Say if you make a repro of a homebrew, even if it's labelled "reproduction", wouldn't that still cheat the programmer out of sales?



#58 Atari8bitCarts OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 5:08 PM

 

When it comes to hard to find carts where the ROMs can be found, makes the most sense, I think, to put the ROM onto the Harmony or some such. Then you can play it, and forget the cart or box until / unless the original can be found. (Why pay, for example > $100 for a fake of Princess Rescue when you can get the ROM for free?)

 

 

That's a great point. I don't buy the argument that you need a reproduction that looks the same as the original just so you can play it.

There are ROM's typically available. It's 2015, playing it is easy.

If you're looking for a repo that matches the original in look, feel, etc., chances are you're too cheap to buy one, or spend the time finding, an original.

That tells me you want a rare cart in your collection that looks original.

Why makes no sense to me. As has been pointed out, it's a fake.



#59 Albert OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 5:09 PM

Say if you make a repro of a homebrew, even if it's labelled "reproduction", wouldn't that still cheat the programmer out of sales?

 

Yes, if you don't have permission from the homebrew author to produce these copies of the game. You are a pirate in this case.

 

 ..Al



#60 CPUWIZ OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 5:18 PM

 

 It's 2015, playing it is easy.

 

No, it isn't. :P



#61 hizzy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 5:24 PM

Is there any point where making a reproduction isn't pirating? Have there ever been reproductions that were produced legally/transparently? 



#62 KaeruYojimbo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 5:46 PM

 

That's a great point. I don't buy the argument that you need a reproduction that looks the same as the original just so you can play it.

There are ROM's typically available. It's 2015, playing it is easy.

If you're looking for a repo that matches the original in look, feel, etc., chances are you're too cheap to buy one, or spend the time finding, an original.

That tells me you want a rare cart in your collection that looks original.

Why makes no sense to me. As has been pointed out, it's a fake.

 

Has anyone actually said it needs to look the same as the original? I think there's a distinction that needs to be made that no one has yet: the distinction between a reproduction and a counterfeit. There's a certain appeal to plugging and actual cartridge into an actual console to play, and a reproduction or a rare game, plainly marked as such, fits that need.

 

A counterfeit on the other hand serves only one purpose: to deceive and cheat buyers and collectors. Counterfeits are the real problem. This guy's games fall more on the repro side. He calls them "homebrews" simply to avoid the red flag of calling them repros, and while they don't expressly say "reproduction" on them, most of them are easily distinguishable from the original releases.

 

What makes this guy particularly heinous, apart from the prices he asks and his attitude when someone confronts him and his spelling, is that he's selling his own homemade copies of homebrews without the creator's permission.



#63 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 6:03 PM

Say if you make a repro of a homebrew, even if it's labelled "reproduction", wouldn't that still cheat the programmer out of sales?

 

Depends on the cost. If the homebrew is unavailable or out of the buyer's ability to purchase because of cost - there would be no sale to for the programmer anyways.

 


Edited by Keatah, Wed May 11, 2016 6:12 PM.

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#64 BassGuitari OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 7:29 PM

 

Really, are we in the 70's or something.

Again, Repro's are NOT the issue. Pawning one off, by making an exact copy, is the issue.Simple, mark the box, label and instructions stating so.

Else you want to fool someone.

Which is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. :)



#65 Kosmic Stardust OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 10:17 PM

This is really disgusting. I for one, am happy that many homebrew authors share their work with the community. I've got Harmony, Powerpak, multiple Everdrives that I load commercial as well as homebrew ROMs on. But I also collect carts too.

 

I do feel that while the community makes a distinction between period repros and homebrew repros, legally there is not one. The only difference is that homebrews are acively sold and produced on the modern market. Vintage games got discontinued long ag.

 

In the end however, these twerps reproing homebrew ROMs will only make hoebrewers less willing to distribute their code/bins, and that makes me a sad panda. Imagine if WIPs of New Pacman or DK VCS/Arcade were not made available publicly. We'd miss out on so many awesome Harmony apps.

 

Also, the seller at hand is taking advantage of unscrupulous buyers by charging rare game prices for reproductions, regardless of commercial or homebrew status. He shouldn't be charging more than $40 for cart only repros, even counting parts and labor, yet tons of sales at $100, $150, even $200 in some cases, basically whatever the market is willing to pay. It makes me sick, that he takes advantage of homebrew authors, buyers, gamers, and collectors by charging outlandish prices for fakes.

 

I guess we can be glad Atari was not successful in Asia or the AliExpress pirates would be putting the garage repro makers out of business, like they do with NES and Famicom. At least the China fakes are easier to spot in the wild compared to a well disguised donor.



#66 high voltage OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed May 11, 2016 11:49 PM

I'm starting on homebrews, so I'll get them from AA of course. I think the ones I'm after are all available at the store.

I don't understand why for example HALO 2600 is $200 on ebay US (not a copy mind you), when you can buy it here on AA for less than $50.



#67 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 12:15 AM

Depends on the cost. If the homebrew is unavailable or out of the buyer's ability to purchase because of cost - there would be no sale to for the programmer anyways.

Nope. Even if the developer decides NOT to sell his game, then selling an unauthorized repro is still pirating.



#68 The Usotsuki OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 12:43 AM

My stance is that if it's not a legitimate copy, and money changes hands, it enters the realm of commercial piracy, which is something that REALLY yanks my chain.

 

As a fansubber, I have some stuff I've worked on commercially pirated - but of course all I can say is "if it has my subtitles, it must be counterfeit, as a legitimate copy does not have English subtitles".



#69 high voltage OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 1:00 AM

I have to admit, I got some repro commercial games, eg Hozer Color Bar Generator, AA Red Sea Crossing and some more.

Of course, should an original become available, I will replace those, I did have Crazy Climber, Quadrun, Rubiks Cube as copies, all three are now replaced with original carts.


Edited by high voltage, Thu May 12, 2016 1:03 AM.


#70 hizzy OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 5:58 AM

I collect records, and there can be several pressings of a record, or you can have several printings of a book. Is there such a thing as an authorized re-issue of a rare game with labels marking it a re-issue? Do rights holders for games like Red Sea Crossing still exist? Is there such a thing as "public domain" in the world of games? Sorry for all of the questions. :P



#71 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 7:02 AM

Legally there are very little PD games, by far the most games still belong the original publishers or developers.

 

But there is a grey zone. E.g. it is very doubtful that Atari still cares for carts being produced for the Atari 2600. So even though you are legally not allowed to reproduce those, in my book, morally this is OK. But for modern homebrews this is very different. Here the author usually still cares for his game. IMO ripping those is plain theft to the author and furthermore hurts the community. And I make NO difference between those people making money with those reproduction (or even only devaluating the originals) and those people who knowingly pay for them.



#72 The Usotsuki OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 7:40 AM

Official reprints exist and some of my SNES games are such ("Players' Choice").  When I had a PS1 copy of Mortal Kombat Trilogy, it was an official repressing ("Greatest Hits").



#73 Atari8bitCarts OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 7:22 PM

 

Has anyone actually said it needs to look the same as the original? I think there's a distinction that needs to be made that no one has yet: the distinction between a reproduction and a counterfeit. There's a certain appeal to plugging and actual cartridge into an actual console to play, and a reproduction or a rare game, plainly marked as such, fits that need.

 

A counterfeit on the other hand serves only one purpose: to deceive and cheat buyers and collectors. Counterfeits are the real problem. This guy's games fall more on the repro side. He calls them "homebrews" simply to avoid the red flag of calling them repros, and while they don't expressly say "reproduction" on them, most of them are easily distinguishable from the original releases.

 

What makes this guy particularly heinous, apart from the prices he asks and his attitude when someone confronts him and his spelling, is that he's selling his own homemade copies of homebrews without the creator's permission.

 

I started the post :) I know why I started it, it was for copies that are made to look exactly like the originals. The arguments over copyrights, etc. are valid points but not what I started this for.

I saw in the ad 1 or more Espial copies. Not listed as reproductions. Made to look the same, so that pissed me off :)

 

Edit: But yes, your point about counterfeits is more of my beef.... :)

 

Music machine, river patrol, check the copies out! Counterfeit.



#74 Atari8bitCarts OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 7:27 PM

 

I started the post :) I know why I started it, it was for copies that are made to look exactly like the originals. The arguments over copyrights, etc. are valid points but not what I started this for.

I saw in the ad 1 or more Espial copies. Not listed as reproductions. Made to look the same, so that pissed me off :)

 

Edit: But yes, your point about counterfeits is more of my beef.... :)

 

Music machine, river patrol, check the copies out! Counterfeit.

 

And I see the seller has some of those original titles they just knocked off... At least that is what appears to me.

So when does one of these ads become a copy, that looks the same, and nothing is said, if that hasn't happened  already.

Edit: I'm sure they might look like crap now, but as tech improves, etc. the next copy will be pristine. Maybe just the box and label get counterfeited..



#75 KaeruYojimbo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu May 12, 2016 9:57 PM

I'm starting on homebrews, so I'll get them from AA of course. I think the ones I'm after are all available at the store.

I don't understand why for example HALO 2600 is $200 on ebay US (not a copy mind you), when you can buy it here on AA for less than $50.

 

Plenty of people out there don't know it's available from the AA store, or that the AA store even exists. Modern gamers or even casual Atari fans who don't know about homebrews might see this and believe it really is some rare one-off.

 

Looks like he's added some new ones. Anyone have any idea what this one might be?

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item2eee3d4720






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