Retro-Bit Generations

[+GoldLeader]

 

Pretty neat how these old electronics continue to work after 30-40 years. Not like the shit they've been making for the past 10 years.

 

Anyhow. The fat lady next door taught me how to play chess. And shortly thereafter I got the VCS version and loved it. Before that I had a Fidelity Chess Challenger, though at that time I didn't know how to play. I ended up taking it apart and making show shoes from the shell halves and god knows what I did with the electronics. Probably connected it to the AC mains directly like I did so many things back then.

 

You must really have enjoyed releasing the magic blue smoke. Was it more puff 'n' smoke, or a literal flash bang from the watt energies involved? You're lucky you didn't electrocute yourself or burn the house down...

 

There were a few times I got knocked out and didn't know what happened. But it was everything you could imagine. And more. It was glorious! I even seem to recall the smoke being multi-colored. But there never was a strong correlation between color of the smoke and the parts it came out of.

 

Somehow I'm reminded of me with my chemistry set...Back in the day I mean.

 

Or perhaps closer would be my lab partner in Electronics class in high school...He grabbed this little tiny light bulb, barely bigger than a pin head and pulled the wires leading off of it apart so he could very quickly jam it into the wall outlet, where it promptly exploded and took power out for our wing of the school! The teacher of our class ran to reset the breaker, then came back, headed right for us and much yelling ensued...I probably didn't help as I mockingly repeated what the teacher was saying demanding to know what he did...LOL

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

To do: Plug in a wired PS3 controller and see if it works...

Battery is dead and the controller will not charge from the Retrobit (this doesn't necessarily mean it won't work - for instance, the PS3 controller also works on the Retrfreak but refuses to charge from it - the battery slowly drains while you play despite being connected through the cable) Charging it on the PC overnight...

 

Really Sony, why don't your controllers work with "dumb" chargers? End soapbox rant...

[+GoldLeader]

Usually I don't let reviews change my opinion very much...When it comes to games, for instance, my tastes vary wildly, especially compared to the average reviewer who may not appreciate the effort or originality of certain games...

 

BUT, that said I gotta be honest...After reading things like this (found this in a different thread and can't remember if it's been here or not):

 

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/hardware_review_retro-bit_generations

 

My enthusiasm has waned on this...Many times over I seem to hear that the emulation is off, the speed, the sound, frame rates, and so forth...And I Know that it's possible to do this better,...Not so much from experience (as my emu experience is limited, not non-existent but limited). So I figure if even a bonehead like me knows this can be done better, the Retro-Bit guys should know better and they shouldn't have been so sloppy here. I even like their Retro-Duo, despite it also having a host of little problems it shouldn't have...

 

I need to save my money anyway, but they weren't supposed to make it easy on me!

 

Maybe 3-5 years from now I'll find a Retro-Bit Generations floating atop a pile of black plastic items, sticky A/V cables, Genesis sports games, and broken Gamecube controllers in a lonely pawn shop somewhere. It'll be next to that Corvette shaped VHS tape rewinder...And I'll offer them $5, Cash! American, for it...And they'll be tired of looking at it and say, "Take it before we change our minds..."

[Schizophretard]

 

Chess came out because of a lawsuit. A guy purchased a VCS, and there was a chess symbol on the box. But no chess game in the catalog. A lawsuit for false advertising ensued. Later, Atari developed VideoChess. A chess game with graphics was thought not possible in the limited space of a VCS ROM, at the time. I'm pretty sure bank switching was "invented" for making this game possible. But yet, the game never used the technique.

 

post-3562-1203154154.jpg

 

I think it is kind of cool and ironic that him suing for false advertising caused us to be able to identify Heavy Sixer boxes based on that Chess piece while the reason we need to identify the box in the first place is because they falsely advertised Heavy Sixers in Light Sixer boxes.

[godslabrat]

Are mfgs of these consoles beginning to use some sort of protocol and pinout that isn't actually USB? I mean just using the connector because it's a connector?

It's been known to happen.

[+evg2000]

So here are some pictures to help answer some questions:

 

Fist off, this is how you see varth:

 

If you want to open it up you have to remove the front feet to remove two screws, the screw on the left and one under the sticker that voids the warranty if you remove. Though I don't think that's a thing anymore as I believe it was decided that manufactures can't do that anymore.

 

Here are the insides:

 

top of the main motherboard: Yes that is a USB connector on the left. I connected it to my mac and didn't see it register as a drive and I tried with power applied also. Don't know if you can ssh or putty into it.

 

Other side with the chips:

 

The composite and audio board: why does it say capcom?

 

and the USB board:

[Osgeld]

 

Keatah, on 18 Nov 2016 - 3:54 PM, said:

Are mfgs of these consoles beginning to use some sort of protocol and pinout that isn't actually USB? I mean just using the connector because it's a connector?

It's been known to happen.

 

 

 

it could be perfectly USB, but it doesnt mean its going to work with your inkjet printer either, Idealy the discriptor would be a HID game device, so other HID game devices could be used, no one says it HAS to be

 

or even better maybe it is, but the sotware is locked down to only look for a specific set of ID's like xbox did

[Keatah]

If you want to open it up you have to remove the front feet to remove two screws, the screw on the left and one under the sticker that voids the warranty if you remove. Though I don't think that's a thing anymore as I believe it was decided that manufactures can't do that anymore.

 

I don't believe that sticker has the words, "warranty void if removed". It looks to be simple date stamp - indicating the time the unit was sealed up. Nothing illegal in that.

[goldenegg]

I posted my thoughts on the system in another thread, but figure I'll paste it here to keep everything together.

 

I was looking forward to the Retro-Bit Generations system. On paper, it seemed like a great buy and something that would nicely accompany the NES Classic Edition. My Generations system arrived today and I'd have to caution anyone who's planning to get one.

There are 2 main issues with the system:

1 - The first is controller lag. There's definite lag on this system, although some games are better than others. Game Boy games seem to have the least lag, with SNES games having the most. It's pretty much the exact same lag the Retron5 has (EDIT: Looks like lag on the Retron5 has dramatically improved with the latest software update. It's not perfect, but much better).

2 - The second issue is even worse than the lag. Arcade and SNES titles don't play at the proper speed. They either play too slow or too fast. You may ask "How could they play too fast?". It's likely that the hardware in the system can't keep up, so they have a high frameskip value for those specific emulators. It's pretty bad. Ghouls N' Ghosts is an example of a game which plays too slow, while Forgotten Worlds and Super R-Type are games which play way too fast.

There's also sound issues, but I think that's related to having a high frameskip.

It's really a shame Retro-Bit released this system in this shape. This is not how any of these games should be enjoyed.

Edited November 19, 2016 by goldenegg

[Keatah]

The feature description begins on page 9.

 

ATJ2279B_datasheet.pdf

[goldenegg]

The ATJ2279B is nowhere near fast enough to meet the needs of the emulators. That pretty much explains the poor performance.

[Osgeld]

well I think it would be (depending on what they clocked it at, datasheet says up to 450Mhz) if they optimized every emulator for it, which I doubt it even crossed their mind

[+evg2000]

Any thoughts on why the USB board and the composite board have capcom in the part number?

[Osgeld]

Any thoughts on why the USB board and the composite board have capcom in the part number?

 

Probably some china fab / layout shop, go on alaibaba and search for capcom pcb, all sorts of crap turns up

[phoenixdownita]

The feature description begins on page 9.

 

ATJ2279B_datasheet.pdf

A 6Y old MIPS based SoC .... I understand "race to the bottom" but c'mon now.

They could have used the same AllWinner R16 like the NESmini or an AllWinner H8 (octacore powa) ..... but they needed to spend pennies right?

Well now the market flop ensuing should serve them well.

 

To recap, the retro-bit gen is really "junk-ish" wrt the HW, the NESMini is emulation on an RPi class board (so aside the nice case and controllers not much to talk home about) , the ATGames MD offerings are not really up to par either (maybe next year we're told), I haven't followed the ATGames VCS versions but I expect a mixed bag as well ..... it's a "sad" year for retro-gamers in terms of quality ... quantity instead ... oh well, I'm glad I saved the money.

 

The Playmore/SNK NeoGeoX lesson really landed on deaf ears.

[Great Hierophant]

A 6Y old MIPS based SoC .... I understand "race to the bottom" but c'mon now.

They could have used the same AllWinner R16 like the NESmini or an AllWinner H8 (octacore powa) ..... but they needed to spend pennies right?

Well now the market flop ensuing should serve them well.

 

To recap, the retro-bit gen is really "junk-ish" wrt the HW, the NESMini is emulation on an RPi class board (so aside the nice case and controllers not much to talk home about) , the ATGames MD offerings are not really up to par either (maybe next year we're told), I haven't followed the ATGames VCS versions but I expect a mixed bag as well ..... it's a "sad" year for retro-gamers in terms of quality ... quantity instead ... oh well, I'm glad I saved the money.

 

The Playmore/SNK NeoGeoX lesson really landed on deaf ears.

The Atari VCS emulation this year isn't any better from last year, and with the SD card you can really poke large holes in atgames' emulation. Video glitches, audio pitch inaccuracy, games that don't run. The only real bright spot this year is the RetroUSB AVS.

[Keatah]

Thing is with emulation, and these are my observances over the years, is that developing an emulator takes a lot of time and even more testing by a rather large audience. Each tester playing their favorite games and trying out all scenarios and levels.

 

Some of the better emulators of today have been in the laboratory since the 1990's. Can hardly expect one whipped up in 6 months to be nearly as good.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Keatah

[Andromeda Stardust]

A 6Y old MIPS based SoC .... I understand "race to the bottom" but c'mon now.

They could have used the same AllWinner R16 like the NESmini or an AllWinner H8 (octacore powa) ..... but they needed to spend pennies right?

Well now the market flop ensuing should serve them well.

 

To recap, the retro-bit gen is really "junk-ish" wrt the HW, the NESMini is emulation on an RPi class board (so aside the nice case and controllers not much to talk home about) , the ATGames MD offerings are not really up to par either (maybe next year we're told), I haven't followed the ATGames VCS versions but I expect a mixed bag as well ..... it's a "sad" year for retro-gamers in terms of quality ... quantity instead ... oh well, I'm glad I saved the money.

 

The Playmore/SNK NeoGeoX lesson really landed on deaf ears.

So basically Retrobit = Atgames in terms of quality.

 

I played some Rockfall, an Piko SNES homebrew I also own on cart, and the audio tune at the intro was obviously wrong. Not as garing as Atgames Genesis emulation, but I haven't tested every SNES game.

[Andromeda Stardust]

So Kosmic (or anyone else who has one and wants to answer),

 

If you've tried it, do the HDMI and A/V outputs BOTH work at the same time? I guess specifically what I'd like to know is can I hook this up to a stereo (using audio from A/V) and use HDMI for the video on a modern TV?

Negative. I just tested this. The console automatically outputs HDMI as long as you have an HDMI cable plugged and connected to a display.

 

Unplug the HDMI cable or turn off the external display, and the console Immediately reverts to composite output. So while you can hotswap displays while powered on, you cannot simultaneously output to both standard definition and HD displays.

 

One issue with my Monoprice HDMI switch is passes wrong colors from the Retrobit Generation console to the display. Wii-U also does this only when running in Wii mode, so I have my Wii-U connected to a dedicated input. Not sure why the Monoprice switch passes the wrong colors, but it's only the second device I've hooked up that exhibits these symptoms.

 

Honestly I may just use the Retrobit Generations on my CRT instead so it doesn't automatically zoom/crop the games on widescreen displays, which need to be fixed on a per game basis.

 

To do: See if display lag is as noticeable on the composite output with tube TV compared to HD displays.

[onmode-ky]

AtGames may have a pervasive sound bug in their RedKid 2 chip, along with a few issues in individual games (e.g., Secret Quest (2600) having no status screen access until this year, The Heist (CV) running at half speed, no enemy encounters in Tower of Doom (INTV)), but I feel like not even they would have let a product go out with blatant performance problems in so many onboard games. I think this is an unprecedented level of "not ready for prime time."

 

So here are some pictures to help answer some questions:

Wow, thanks for all those pictures! I've never even heard of this Actions semiconductor company (maker of the microcontroller chip), and I think this is the first time a MIPS-based chip has been used in a plug-n-play system. I see the Samsung chip is a 64-MB (512-Mb) DDR SDRAM chip. Can't read enough of the text on the third chip in that picture, unfortunately, but it's probably flash memory.

 

The composite and audio board: why does it say capcom?

I would guess that the project started as just being a system that played a selection of Capcom games, and then later on, after initial hardware work was already done (and their part names set), they got the other IP owners on board.

 

 

That guy is playing a copy provided by Retro-Bit, though, not a retail one. Earlier, I was uncertain about trusting such reviewers' videos because of the presence of Alfred Chicken on their systems, but now what's giving me pause is the fact that their systems have a "Juudou Warriors" entry instead of the "Judo Warriors 2" entry that's on Kosmic Stardust's retail copy.

We rarely trust any reviewer's opinions. Too much possibility of bias. The best source of information is in forums.

 

I don't know why you thought I was talking about trusting reviewers' opinions. Just about all of my posts have been about determining what content is in this system. The text you boldfaced from my post is referring to whether the reviewers' video footage can be relied upon to have a game selection identical to that of the final product. No opinions involved.

 

2 - The second issue is even worse than the lag. Arcade and SNES titles don't play at the proper speed. They either play too slow or too fast.

Also, Mercs in this system, which is the Genesis version, runs with a very choppy frame rate.

 

Some of the titles in my Platform Still Unconfirmed list have had their platforms confirmed. Thanks to goldenegg for some of these.

 

ARC

- forgotten worlds -- capcom

- ghouls 'n ghosts -- capcom

- knights of the round -- capcom

- varth: operation thunderstorm -- capcom

 

NES/FAM

- 1942 -- capcom

- 1943 -- capcom

- bionic commando -- capcom

- city connection -- jaleco

- hammerin' harry -- irem

 

GEN/MD

- mercs -- capcom

 

Also, some corrections:

 

NES/FAM

zooming secretary (listed as: zooming secrataries (sic)) -- piko interactive/shiru

 

SNES/SFC

- night defender: 2nd quest (listed as: night defender 2) -- piko interactive/shiru

- night defender -- piko interactive/bubblezap/shiru

- super thor quest (listed as: thors (sic) quest) -- piko interactive/bubblezap

 

Yes, not only did Retro-Bit make it plural secretaries, but they also misspelled the word. Bravo.

 

onmode-ky

[StopDrop&Retro]

Thanks for the pics. I can't help but wonder, has anyone ever seen this kind of legalese printed on any other HDMI/USB device they own?? WTF is going on?

 

 

 

 

 

Also who would ever design a set of PCBs that have so many holes for screws to pass through? It looks awful. They should have just placed a screw on each corner, they have four little feet so why not?. I could swear they designed the shell first and the PCBs around it.

 

 

Edit: oh wait, it costs money

 

from wiki:

A vendor ID is necessary for obtaining a certification of compliance from the USB-IF. The USB-IF is responsible for issuing USB vendor IDs to product manufacturers. The cost for issuing this number is US$5,000. Additionally, the use of a trademarked USB logo to identify certified devices requires license fee of US$3,500 for a 2-year term.

 

But why would just including that language be adequate (assuming they're avoiding paying the fees)? I'm lost on this one.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Wow, thanks for all those pictures! I've never even heard of this Actions semiconductor company (maker of the microcontroller chip), and I think this is the first time a MIPS-based chip has been used in a plug-n-play system. I see the Samsung chip is a 64-MB (512-Mb) DDR SDRAM chip. Can't read enough of the text on the third chip in that picture, unfortunately, but it's probably flash memory.

 

I wasn't even aware they still made MIPS CPUs. Perfect platform for N64 emulation since you can just run the CPU portion of the code natively?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Thanks for the pics. I can't help but wonder, has anyone ever seen this kind of legalese printed on any other HDMI/USB device they own?? WTF is going on?

 

 

 

Also who would ever design a set of PCBs that have so many holes for screws to pass through? It looks awful. They should have just placed a screw on each corner, they have four little feet so why not?. I could swear they designed the shell first and the PCBs around it.

 

 

Edit: oh wait, it costs money

 

from wiki:

 

But why would just including that language be adequate (assuming they're avoiding paying the fees)? I'm lost on this one.

"This product is not licensed, sponsored, or endorsed by..." Seems like they simply copy/pasted the clause from one of their unlicensed Nintendo accessories.

[+GoldLeader]

Negative. I just tested this. The console automatically outputs HDMI as long as you have an HDMI cable plugged and connected to a display.

 

Unplug the HDMI cable or turn off the external display, and the console Immediately reverts to composite output. So while you can hotswap displays while powered on, you cannot simultaneously output to both standard definition and HD displays.

 

 

Thanks Stardust!

 

I was just curious...

[+GoldLeader]

 

Also who would ever design a set of PCBs that have so many holes for screws to pass through? It looks awful. They should have just placed a screw on each corner, they have four little feet so why not?. I could swear they designed the shell first and the PCBs around it.

 

 

 

 

AKA The Coleco Chameleon approach...