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#1 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 5:05 AM

Good morning from Michigan, USA!

 

A few weeks ago, I purchased an AEC-7720u to use with my ICD MIO (1mb version), and was able to have MetalGuy66 send me the ROM upgrade for it (Thank you, MG!). I ordered a new SCSI cable from Amazon last week, and started messing around with things this past weekend but then got to wondering why I was even bothering since I use my SIO2USB for pretty much everything already. So, I figured I'd sell the card and cable and get my investment back at this point.

 

However, while I wait to see if anyone expresses interest in it, I think I'd still like to see if I can get it up and running with the MIO, but the instructions that come with the Acard are far too simplistic for my level of understanding-- and since I never ventured into the hard drive aspects of the MIO back in the day (SCSI drives were simply too prohibitive for me back in the early 90s!!), nor did I ever have to mess with SCSI configurations when I went PC, I am turning to the pros here after not being able to track down via Search any info that seemed helpful.

 

So, I have the MIO and the card and what I presume is a feasible PATA IDE hard drive (I have a 4gb as well as a 13gb).

 

What do I do next? And didn't I read somewhere that the MIO's SCSI interface is upside-down (or was it the BBox that is upside-down)?

 

I presume that I'll need to provide power to BOTH the hard drive as well as the card. The instructions for the card are crazy-vague about the power terminator jumper, saying that its default is on, yet there isn't a jumper ON that connection (J2, I think, since I don't have the card near me atm).

 

As for the hard drive, should it be set to Single? I would presume that the answer is yes, but this is SCSI, so... uncertainty there.

 

In the MIO configuration, I change the drive type to SCSI, of course (right?). But then it asks me for ID, LUN and I'm lost again. I did read on an ST board elsewhere on the internet that ALL of the jumpers need to be off to get an ID of "0" when connecting to an ST. Is that the case here with the MIO, as well? And what is the LUN to be set as?

 

The next thing it asked was something that had 256 as the first option when I spacebar'd it. I didn't go past that because, again, I've no idea what it's for or what I need to set it as.

 

The next thing after that had something like a Start setting and then an End setting. I think I went with 256 as the start, and then did the end as 4096, and ended up with the size (left column) being 1mb. What do I do with either a 4gb or 13gb drive, then? Are there max limits for the Atari or MIO when it comes to these settings?

 

After this set of steps, do I then proceed with SpartaDOS's HDINIT? And what will it need to be told?

 

Lastly, rather than a mechanical drive, should I perhaps look into buying an IDE-to-CF interface instead? And if so, what should I look for in the CF (for example, capacity limits?)?

 

I really do apologize for what looks to me, as I re-read this, a LOT of hand-holding-- I'm hoping that this might not only help ME but also anyone else in the future who is just as unfamiliar with this aspect of 8-bitting. If this works, though, I'll obviously keep the card. But right now, it seems like such a daunting project compared to peeling and repairing mylars on 1200XLs <nervous chuckle>.

 

With appreciation,

Tim

 



#2 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 5:45 AM

Good morning from Michigan, USA!

 

A few weeks ago, I purchased an AEC-7720u to use with my ICD MIO (1mb version), and was able to have MetalGuy66 send me the ROM upgrade for it (Thank you, MG!). I ordered a new SCSI cable from Amazon last week, and started messing around with things this past weekend but then got to wondering why I was even bothering since I use my SIO2USB for pretty much everything already. So, I figured I'd sell the card and cable and get my investment back at this point.

 

However, while I wait to see if anyone expresses interest in it, I think I'd still like to see if I can get it up and running with the MIO, but the instructions that come with the Acard are far too simplistic for my level of understanding-- and since I never ventured into the hard drive aspects of the MIO back in the day (SCSI drives were simply too prohibitive for me back in the early 90s!!), nor did I ever have to mess with SCSI configurations when I went PC, I am turning to the pros here after not being able to track down via Search any info that seemed helpful.

 

So, I have the MIO and the card and what I presume is a feasible PATA IDE hard drive (I have a 4gb as well as a 13gb).

 

What do I do next? And didn't I read somewhere that the MIO's SCSI interface is upside-down (or was it the BBox that is upside-down)?

 

I presume that I'll need to provide power to BOTH the hard drive as well as the card. The instructions for the card are crazy-vague about the power terminator jumper, saying that its default is on, yet there isn't a jumper ON that connection (J2, I think, since I don't have the card near me atm).

 

As for the hard drive, should it be set to Single? I would presume that the answer is yes, but this is SCSI, so... uncertainty there.

 

In the MIO configuration, I change the drive type to SCSI, of course (right?). But then it asks me for ID, LUN and I'm lost again. I did read on an ST board elsewhere on the internet that ALL of the jumpers need to be off to get an ID of "0" when connecting to an ST. Is that the case here with the MIO, as well? And what is the LUN to be set as?

 

The next thing it asked was something that had 256 as the first option when I spacebar'd it. I didn't go past that because, again, I've no idea what it's for or what I need to set it as.

 

The next thing after that had something like a Start setting and then an End setting. I think I went with 256 as the start, and then did the end as 4096, and ended up with the size (left column) being 1mb. What do I do with either a 4gb or 13gb drive, then? Are there max limits for the Atari or MIO when it comes to these settings?

 

After this set of steps, do I then proceed with SpartaDOS's HDINIT? And what will it need to be told?

 

Lastly, rather than a mechanical drive, should I perhaps look into buying an IDE-to-CF interface instead? And if so, what should I look for in the CF (for example, capacity limits?)?

 

I really do apologize for what looks to me, as I re-read this, a LOT of hand-holding-- I'm hoping that this might not only help ME but also anyone else in the future who is just as unfamiliar with this aspect of 8-bitting. If this works, though, I'll obviously keep the card. But right now, it seems like such a daunting project compared to peeling and repairing mylars on 1200XLs <nervous chuckle>.

 

With appreciation,

Tim

 

 

Here's some info about MIO.  I have the MIO Owner's Manual also.

MIO can only do HDs with 256 bytes per sector. Most have 512 or 1024.

The MIO is a SCSI interface.  Most PC hard drives are MFM or SATA.  To use an MFM HD, you'd need a Adaptec 4000A interface.

Attached Files



#3 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 6:52 AM

 

Here's some info about MIO.  I have the MIO Owner's Manual also.

MIO can only do HDs with 256 bytes per sector. Most have 512 or 1024.

The MIO is a SCSI interface.  Most PC hard drives are MFM or SATA.  To use an MFM HD, you'd need a Adaptec 4000A interface.

 

Thank you, russg,

 

The information you attached was helpful in understanding attaching a SCSI drive to the MIO, as well as what ID and LUN need to be. However, since I'm using the Acard bridge card along with a PATA IDE drive, most of my other questions still remain-- including switching to an IDE-to-CF interface. Neither of my available IDE drives lists information like cylinders or heads, either. And I doubt a CompactFlash will have it either since they are compatible with IDE-- minus the moving parts.

 

Unless I'm missing something entirely here-- which is certainly possible!

 

I do want to ask how I can verify where Pin 1 on the MIO SCSI interface is so I can match the cable with it. Will I need to open up the MIO, or does someone already know, since ICD didn't slot the interface...

 

Thank you, in advance!

Tim



#4 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 7:29 AM

 

Here's some info about MIO.  I have the MIO Owner's Manual also.

MIO can only do HDs with 256 bytes per sector. Most have 512 or 1024.

The MIO is a SCSI interface.  Most PC hard drives are MFM or SATA.  To use an MFM HD, you'd need a Adaptec 4000A interface.

 

I scanned the manual.  It is two sided, so I had to scan in five odd and even pdfs.

I'm not sure where I'm at right now on the internet.  I think the MIODOC.ZIP is here in Atariage.

The .zip has all the pages, but in odd and even.   So, you could print out the manual.

Actually the manual is arcane/difficult.  I never have read it.  Someone with better

knowledge than me might make sense of it.


Edited by russg, Tue Jul 5, 2016 7:30 AM.


#5 russg OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 7:36 AM

 

Thank you, russg,

 

The information you attached was helpful in understanding attaching a SCSI drive to the MIO, as well as what ID and LUN need to be. However, since I'm using the Acard bridge card along with a PATA IDE drive, most of my other questions still remain-- including switching to an IDE-to-CF interface. Neither of my available IDE drives lists information like cylinders or heads, either. And I doubt a CompactFlash will have it either since they are compatible with IDE-- minus the moving parts.

 

Unless I'm missing something entirely here-- which is certainly possible!

 

I do want to ask how I can verify where Pin 1 on the MIO SCSI interface is so I can match the cable with it. Will I need to open up the MIO, or does someone already know, since ICD didn't slot the interface...

 

Thank you, in advance!

Tim

 

From my little document.

 

'A fifty pin ribbon cable connects to the MIO. The red 'line' on the
cable is wire #1 and goes to pin 1. Pin one is at the top back of the
MIO. It is possible to put this ribbon on backwards. With the pin type
headers, great care and patience should be taken to line up the holes
and pins and gently push the cable connector on the pins. Removing the
connector should be done slowly, probably prying with a small screw
driver, first one side then the other. It is VERY easy to bend and
break the head pins, great care must be taken installing and removing

the cables'

 

By 'top back'  I mean the top  pins row, there are two rows of pins, by 'back' I mean away from you ​if you are holding it

​so the pins are to the right


Edited by russg, Tue Jul 5, 2016 7:41 AM.


#6 MacRorie OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 11:50 AM

There are many more things I can say about this (I have gone through ALL of these permutations and recently!), but the most important one I can say to you is if you are going to use the ACARD, do NOT format the hard drive with the MIO.  You can find out the cylinders and heads for any drive, even SATA, but you are only going to use the directory format program via the MIO/BB.  Hell, use SDX to format the dir (it won't let you doing anything else) and you will be fine.

 

Make sure check and double check the sector size as some DOSes will not like the 512 sectors.  WIll try to write more later.  OR give me a PM and I can walk you through what I have done.

 

Also, the cables are standard on the MIO (red line to pin 1, etc).  The BB the SCSI port on the BB is flipped.  This means you have to defeat the notched double-check on the IDC header.  For the life of me, I have never understood why this was done.  Why would you defeat a safety device?  Especially when an inverted SCSI cable could -literally- catch on fire if connected improperly.

 

As far as write compatibility, the BB can be set to emulate an MIO, but that is different than the cabling you were talking about.



#7 BillC OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 12:09 PM

@ Timothy Kline

 

I believe what you are calling an SIO2USB is a USB version of the SIO2PC, what I call a SIO2PC/USB.

 

The SIO2USB is a standalone device similar to the SIO2SD, using a USB flash drive instead of an SD card.

http://www.abbuc.de/...re-contest-2007

 

The MIO writes data to the HDD inverted, which is actually the way all Atari FDDs write their data. The Black Box default is to write the data non-inverted but also gives the inverted option.



#8 Larry OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 5, 2016 1:53 PM

@Timothy-

 

Search here (if you have not) for these MIO threads:

 

http://atariage.com/...3-icd-multi-io/

 

http://atariage.com/...drives-for-mio/

 

Both these threads contain much useful info.  If you can get it set up without wading through these threads, great, but there is good reading in them.  Toward the end of one of the MIO threads there is the info about termination, the new rom and many pictures from Warerat and Ken and others. 

 

Here is a short WORD file about setting up the Acard.  And if still hung up, let me know. I have one in use between an MIO and a Black Box nearly all the time.  I'll take pics, etc.  I actually just ordered an AztecMonster CF-SCSI adapter, but it won't be here until likely late July or early August.  I would recommend using a CF-type adapter rather than trying to find a SCSI drive.  

 

-Larry

Attached Thumbnails

  • MIO with Acard 7720U Adapter) (Large).JPG

Attached Files



#9 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 5:45 AM

The acard doesnt need any instructions. everything is marked on the pcb.

SCSI ID 0 is fine.. IDE drive has to be jumpered as single/master.. On the acard, you want both termination and terminator power on.

As far as the MIO config, you are setting PARTITIONS.. Not drives.. so these are absoloute sector numbers.. eg. 1 - 65536, 65537 - 131073, etc. The most you can do per partition is 65536 sectors.. If that's SDX DD512 then its a 32meg partition. any other DOS, its a 16meg partition (256 byte sectors)..

Once youve configged the MIO and saved the config to the hardisk, just boot the DOS (from floppy or other SIO connected means) and format the configged drives using normal DOS format routines.. With modern LBA drives, you dont ever want to do a "low level format" so you can shitcan all the "MIO format programs".. None of that old crap applies anymore with the newer firmware.. In the SDX format program, you simply use "build directory structure"..

If you want to make the drive bootable, use the appropriate dos command to write dos to it.. Its really that simple..

Edited by MEtalGuy66, Wed Jul 6, 2016 6:08 AM.


#10 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 6:07 AM

The acard doesnt need any instructions. everything is marked on the pcb.

SCSI ID 0 is fine.. IDE drive has to be jumpered as single/master.. On the acard, you want both termination and terminator power on.


Dumb question: On, meaning jumpered, right?
 

As far as the MIO config, you are setting PARTITIONS.. Not drives.. so these are absoloute sector numbers.. eg. 1 - 65536, 65537 - 131073, etc. The most you can do per partition is 65536 sectors.. If that's SDX DD512 then its a 32meg partition. any other DOS, its a 16meg partition (256 byte sectors)..


Okay, this makes sense. Is there a limit as to hard drive capacity itself-- aside from the practical? Would a 30gb HD be fine, or should I keep it low and use my 4gb drive?
 

Once youve configged the MIO and saved the config to the hardisk, just boot the DOS (from floppy or other SIO connected means) and format the configged drives using normal DOS format routines.. With modern LBA drives, you dont ever want to do a "low level format" so you can shitcan all the "MIO format programs".. Nonoe of that old crap applies anymore with the newer firmware.. In the SDX format program, you simply use "build directory structure"..


Okay, NO low-level formatting. Ever. Got it.
 

Its really that simple..


Well, you made it simple. I was looking at it going, uhhhh, will I fry something??!! lol

Alright, I'm gonna try this out after work today.

Thank you, MG and everyone who offered their help. Larry, the links were fantastic and gave me some insight I was otherwise missing by not knowing what to search for, specifically.

 

--Tim
 



#11 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 6:10 AM

@ Timothy Kline

 

I believe what you are calling an SIO2USB is a USB version of the SIO2PC, what I call a SIO2PC/USB.

 

The SIO2USB is a standalone device similar to the SIO2SD, using a USB flash drive instead of an SD card.

http://www.abbuc.de/...re-contest-2007

 

The MIO writes data to the HDD inverted, which is actually the way all Atari FDDs write their data. The Black Box default is to write the data non-inverted but also gives the inverted option.

 

Yes, you are correct. I was shortening it-- primarily because that's how I think of the module. It's Steven Tucker's interface card, to be exact.

 

--Tim



#12 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 6:16 AM


Also, the cables are standard on the MIO (red line to pin 1, etc).  The BB the SCSI port on the BB is flipped.  This means you have to defeat the notched double-check on the IDC header.  For the life of me, I have never understood why this was done.  Why would you defeat a safety device?  Especially when an inverted SCSI cable could -literally- catch on fire if connected improperly.

 

 

It looks to me like the MIO is upside down compared to my PC experience with ribbon cables, since Pin 1 of the MIO SCSI interface is on the right rather than the left, per my pics...

 

I say "upside-down" because typically, the ribbon will flow down after being connected, not upwards. At least on PCs.

 

--Tim

Attached Thumbnails

  • cablesonline_2272_1974840.gif
  • ICD MIO Mainboard (1mb).jpg

Edited by Timothy Kline, Wed Jul 6, 2016 6:18 AM.


#13 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 6:19 AM

It diesnt matter tha the data is inverted, unless you plan to swap the drive with another device eg. Blackbox or PC.. The blackbox has a DIP switch setting for that, and the PC. heh. Well.. The MIO is not a good solution for doing that..

#14 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 11:43 AM

Not sure why you posted that picture of that goofy row-swapped cable, but that isn't gonna work with the MIO. That goofy cable is designed to unfuck a pretty rare/specific problem where you are actually plugging into a connector that has been soldered onto the wrong side of the PCB and thus the two rows of the SCSI connector are swapped.

 

As far as which way the cable "flows" heh.. You can assemble the connector onto an IDC ribbon cable with the cable "flowing" out either side and you get the same exact thing electrically..   So thats purely a function of exactly how the cable was assembled.. 

 

As far as the max drive size.. The new firmware does 32bit LBA. So.. 2TB.  I have used a 2TB drive on an acard with the MIO and it worked fine. The MIO could access every single sector. You can only have a max of 8 32meg partitions configged at a time, but the interface and handler will talk to all 4294967296 sectors on a 2TB drive. 

 

Also, its important to note that if you select 256 byte sectors, you are only using half of each sector. the MIO does not "split sectors" in software like the blackbox does. So keep this in mind if your using a small drive. Using 256 byte sectors, you waste half the drive. 



#15 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 12:10 PM

Not sure why you posted that picture of that goofy row-swapped cable, but that isn't gonna work with the MIO. That goofy cable is designed to unfuck a pretty rare/specific problem where you are actually plugging into a connector that has been soldered onto the wrong side of the PCB and thus the two rows of the SCSI connector are swapped.

 
Meh, I picked it to show where the red line ran and the "key" ran. Purely illustrative. Didn't have my own cable handy. ;)
 

As far as which way the cable "flows" heh.. You can assemble the connector onto an IDC ribbon cable with the cable "flowing" out either side and you get the same exact thing electrically..   So thats purely a function of exactly how the cable was assembled..


I know, I know. ^_^
 

As far as the max drive size.. The new firmware does 32bit LBA. So.. 2TB.


This answers my question, for sure, regarding capacity and which drive I will try using this evening. Thank you!
 

Also, its important to note that if you select 256 byte sectors, you are only using half of each sector. the MIO does not "split sectors" in software like the blackbox does. So keep this in mind if your using a small drive. Using 256 byte sectors, you waste half the drive.


So it'll be okay to spacebar to 512 in this case, if I understand you correctly?

Do these same things apply if I decide I don't much care for the IDE approach and switch to a CompactFlash?

Again, thank you for all of the feedback!

--Tim

#16 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 3:16 PM

Yep. All modern drives/cards are ok with 512byte sectors.. It's just the DOS that matters. If you wanna use a disk based DOS, then you are limited to 256 byte sectors.. SpartaDOS X is the only one that currently supports 512 byte sectors.



#17 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 6, 2016 3:28 PM

Also, Id make the recomendation that even if you dont end up using it immediately, I'd keep the Acard as long as you intend to keep the MIO..  The Acards are not getting any cheaper and none of the newer SCSi-IDE bridges seem to work/perform anywhere near as good. Without the Acard, the MIO's range of drive compatibility is very "hit/miss"..   The Acard removes luck from the equation and basically makes the MIO's hardisk interface into a viable solution again with a huge range of cheap/available devices. The same can be said about the Acard concerning the CSS Blackbox, to a large degree these days..


Edited by MEtalGuy66, Wed Jul 6, 2016 3:29 PM.


#18 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 7, 2016 6:38 PM

Okay, I've tried getting this to work for two evenings now, and it looks like I can't even wrap my head around what should be the simplest thing.

 

So, I have the hard drive all set up cozy in the MIO config.

 

Hop over to SpartaDOS X and I've tried to format the hard drive partition using XINIT.COM

 

Results, every time and on two different IDE drives:

 

Error #8A - Format Aborted

 

What am I missing here? Help, please?

 

--Tim


Edited by Timothy Kline, Thu Jul 7, 2016 6:38 PM.


#19 rdea6 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jul 7, 2016 6:50 PM

type   FORMAT  and see where that led 's you..



#20 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 8, 2016 4:02 AM

type   FORMAT  and see where that led 's you..

 

Man, that better not be all this is. I'm an idiot enough without sealing the deal. O.o

 

Sidenote: I used to use XINIT back in my previous Atari days and it worked fine... for floppies. I'll do the FORMAT command after work today. If that doesn't work either, I'm back-burnering this, as there are enough other things with my Atari I could be doing than trying to get a hard drive up and running. I wanted to do this as one of my I-never-did-get-to-have-[fill in the blank] on my Atari list of to-do items ;)

 

--Tim



#21 MEtalGuy66 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 8, 2016 9:36 AM

What kind of expansions do you have on that atari?



#22 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jul 8, 2016 9:38 AM

What kind of expansions do you have on that atari?

 

You know, I was so tired after work yesterday that I didn't even THINK to try one of my other systems, MG...  but to answer your question: Ultimate 1mb, nothing else.

 

--Tim



#23 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 9, 2016 7:25 AM

type   FORMAT  and see where that led 's you..

 

Nope, FORMAT didn't work, either. Drive not acknowledging. I did upgrade the U1MB's SpartaDOS to 4.47 this morning, hoping that would resolve the issue. But nope-- still nothing. Same results with three stock XLs and 2 stock 130XEs.

 

I might add that SAVE'ing MIO configuration (to 0,0) likewise fails. Tried with a 4gb, 13gb, 80gb, and 200gb IDE drive.

 

Also, attached an LED to the appropriate jumper on the card, and never lit during the testing process-- or flickered, for that matter. Drives did spin up once the power was connected, and the LED would flick green on. Beyond that, nothing.

 

Unless there's anything else I could try for testing or troubleshooting at this point, I think it's time to move on to something else from my To-Do list...

 

--Tim



#24 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 9, 2016 9:27 AM

Wild guess: do you have the U1MB PBI BIOS enabled? Might conflict with the MIO new DEVICE ID?

#25 Timothy Kline OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jul 9, 2016 9:47 AM

Wild guess: do you have the U1MB PBI BIOS enabled? Might conflict with the MIO new DEVICE ID?

 

No, sir. Made sure of that following the upgrade to the new altBIOS. ;)

 

--Tim







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