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Bosconian for the 8-bits


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#251 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:30 PM

And now hopefully Emkay understands why I specifically said an MSX, not a Konami Nemesis board.

Just kidding, he'll never get it.


"POKEY should have no problem reproducing the start theme. Heck, even the MSX version gets it right."

It's just those lazy statement from above, that make people guessing wrong possibilities to the A8. You'd need 2 POKEYs to get the musical feature of the MSX, driving 30% of the 6502 CPU, where the MSX almost needs no CPU ...
OK, you could do PWM , using almost all CPU with one POKEY.... Musicwise every of those old chips is better than POKEY. But people still like to mix things up.

#252 miker ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:43 PM

Ok, the start theme (both arcade and MSX versions) was sent yesterday to another musician.

 

Let's see what will happen next...



#253 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:54 AM

"POKEY should have no problem reproducing the start theme. Heck, even the MSX version gets it right."

It's just those lazy statement from above, that make people guessing wrong possibilities to the A8. You'd need 2 POKEYs to get the musical feature of the MSX, driving 30% of the 6502 CPU, where the MSX almost needs no CPU ...
OK, you could do PWM , using almost all CPU with one POKEY.... Musicwise every of those old chips is better than POKEY. But people still like to mix things up.

 

 

I'm confused - the MSX has one 3 voice AY chip - a very limited chip in my experience of having to actually use them in games.

 

How does the A8 need 2 pokeys to come near that?

 

Getting a solid rendition of the game audio on Pokey is totally practical IMHO; either as a conversion from the WSG original or based on the MSX conversion...

 

sTeVE

 

P.S. The conversion is looking absolutely fantastic by the way, a really great piece of work!!


Edited by Jetboot Jack, Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:58 AM.


#254 miker ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:10 PM

No need for two POKEYs here.

 

Work in progress...

 

:)

Attached Thumbnails

  • bosc.png


#255 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:16 PM

No need for two POKEYs here.
 
Work in progress...
 
:)


As expected max. 3 channels with a perfect frequency offset at a higher frequency range. Octave 3-4.... Something POKEY can only do correct with some trickery.

#256 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:43 PM

I'm confused - the MSX has one 3 voice AY chip - a very limited chip in my experience of having to actually use them in games.
 
How does the A8 need 2 pokeys to come near that?


Another example...

Put aside "how it sounds" .... if you don't hear that swimming through the notes in the Atari Version, we may not discuss things further...





#257 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:19 PM

And that's what could be reached, using RMT...



#258 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:26 PM

Emkay,

I am still utterly confused - you seem rather bent on making this thread about the impossibility of this being a good version of the game with good sound.

From what I have seen Bosconian is shaping up to be an exemplary game for the little Atari and from what I know of the audio abilities of the system I expect there to be equally great sound - the samples are already awesome!!

This is an Atari forum celebrating our collective enthusiasm for this old computer - lighten up, this is gonna be great!

sTeVE

Edited by Jetboot Jack, Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:31 PM.


#259 DrVenkman OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:32 PM

Yeah, seriously - the nerd-fight/pissing match about what POKEY can or cannot do is not only a thread-jacking gone bad, it's detracting from the excellent work done by the authors of this port. Give it a rest, guys, and let the people behind the game do their work. 



#260 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:39 PM

Emkay,

I am still utterly confused - you seem rather bent on making this thread about the impossibility of this being a good version of the game with good sound.


I know, people here tend to understand things wrong. But it's more the problem when people do footless evidences. It's hard enough to have people doing false expectation. No need to put oil to the fire.
The game is very great, no question.

#261 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:43 PM

Yeah, seriously - the nerd-fight/pissing match about what POKEY can or cannot do is not only a thread-jacking gone bad, it's detracting from the excellent work done by the authors of this port. Give it a rest, guys, and let the people behind the game do their work.


Actually, I hope, a good way for the sound will be found. But other great looking projects have been screwed up by the used sounds. IMHO too much already.

Edited by emkay, Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:43 PM.


#262 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:45 PM

2 things:

 

1- This Bonsconian project is looking and sounding pretty nice. I like it. I had no idea it was in development till recently. Can someone tell me what the minimum spec machine this is being targeted to?

 

2- Going back to October 2016..

That's why it's called "Never Twice the Same Color". Star Raiders, according to the manual, will turn the screen bluish when shields are activated, while I know from first-hand experience and from Youtube that it turns dark green:

 

The intended colors of Star Raiders for the shields are blue, not green. And the Red Alert upon exiting hyperspace should be red, not violet/purple. Anything else is incorrect emulation or improper TV/computer color adjustment. I remember that from when I was a kid. And Doug himself said so in an interview.

 

s0.png s1.png ra.png

 



#263 Mclaneinc ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:49 PM

Hey Keetah, have you the Altirra settings that give this under NTSC (or PAL but surely as it was NTSC devised it should be right there first and foremost)



#264 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:55 PM

The intended colors of Star Raiders for the shields are blue, not green. And the Red Alert upon exiting hyperspace should be red, not violet/purple. Anything else is incorrect emulation or improper TV/computer color adjustment. I remember that from when I was a kid. And Doug himself said so in an interview.


Tell that the Atari engineers of the past, creating the PAL machines. You cannot change the color there. On PAL machines it is unchangeable "green and violett" .... since PAL machines don't have a "red" color.

#265 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:11 PM

This is the setup for my portable Toughbook laptop. Each monitor will be slightly different, no doubt. The 2.80 scheme looks good also. Slight variations in shades I suppose. But this is how I remember it!

44860756.png colorsSR1.png



#266 ZylonBane OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:33 PM

As expected max. 3 channels with a perfect frequency offset at a higher frequency range. Octave 3-4.... Something POKEY can only do correct with some trickery.

 

Dear Crazy Person,

 

Even IF there are any notes in the Bosconian opening theme that POKEY can't get close enough, it's only a three-voice song. Just run POKEY in 16/8/8 mode and assign any problem notes to the 16-bit channel.

 

But precise note matching is really less important than you desperately, obnoxiously cling to believing. As long as the notes used aren't horribly off-key, and everything else is right... the timing, volume, and envelopes... a song will be recognizable as itself. This principle is why, for example, even a TIA trying to do the Galaga theme can sound "good" to most ears.

 


Edited by ZylonBane, Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:39 PM.


#267 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:11 PM

Tell that the Atari engineers of the past, creating the PAL machines. You cannot change the color there. On PAL machines it is unchangeable "green and violett" .... since PAL machines don't have a "red" color.


So PAL 8-bit Ataris can't draw red colors?

#268 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:19 AM

So PAL 8-bit Ataris can't draw red colors?

Yep. The "real" RED isn't there. You have some "Brown/Pink"-Red and some "Whine"-Red.

#269 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:22 AM

 

Tell that the Atari engineers of the past, creating the PAL machines. You cannot change the color there. On PAL machines it is unchangeable "green and violett" .... since PAL machines don't have a "red" color.

Yep. The "real" RED isn't there. You have some "Brown/Pink"-Red and some "Whine"-Red.

 

Yes that's pretty much what I've observed. I never cared much for PAL's gamut. I guess having grown up with NTSC makes me biased. But whatever. I'm sure the engineers had their reasons for it. Whatever those may be.



#270 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:29 AM

Red is there - NTSC suffers same as PAL in that saturation at mid/high luma drops off which in both cases turns red into pink.



#271 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:41 AM

To be fair it's not PAL's color gamut that is at fault but Atari's output of it's PAL video signal - PAL has a good bandwidth for color and removes hue errors, also chroma errors are not present in PAL outputs....

 

Take a look at machines developed for PAL rather than converted to PAL, or later machines like the ST and the AMIGA to see what I mean - proper reds...

 

sTeVE



#272 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:45 AM

Yes I suppose so.



#273 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:55 AM

I've been using some of the wonderful palette's developed by Trebor for 2600/5200/7800 and A8 - http://atariage.com/...s-some-clothes/ - in my quest for emulated Atari perfection :-)

 

sTeVE



#274 Rybags OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:03 AM

ST/Amiga are different.  They generate RGB and in both cases use the same off-the-shelf IC to create the chroma/luma signals for TV output.

 

The problem with the "old way", ie initial video chip output based on chroma/luma is that often they don't bother looking after saturation properly.



#275 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:33 AM

That was not my point, I am aware of different systems electronics, my point was weak reds and odd PAL colours are not a property of PAL or NTSC, but A8 design...

 

sTeVE






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