410 not working?

[Asaki]

Hey guys, I finally bought a 410 Program Recorder, but I'm having trouble getting it to work.

 

First I tried using a cassette adapter plugged into my laptop, and I could hear the audio from the left channel coming through my TV (the WAVs are encoded in mono), but after about 48 seconds, it gives up and goes to the Self Test. So I tried opening it up and soldering a jack directly to the board, but I'm getting the same results. CLOAD in BASIC gives error 140, if that means anything. I don't know if there's a way to check if no data is going through, or if it's just reading it poorly, or what...I've tried adjusting the volume levels, but nothing works.

 

I have the older 410, the one with the handle, so I can't find much technical info on it, except that the field manual says that the newer 410 has a stronger amp in it. I'm testing with Space Invaders, because it's only a couple minutes long, I know it works in Atari800Win, and I currently only have 16K RAM (600XL).

 

The motor starts and stops okay, but the belts look pretty bad, I don't think they could spin a real tape.

 

I tried using A8CAS to convert the CAS files over, but these WAV files don't look right, so I'm just using CAS2WAV instead.

 

I was checking the board over, and everything looks okay, no bad caps or anything, but checking with the multimeter, R audio (white wire) and ground (black) seem to be shorted? Or is this normal?

 

Gosh, now that I think about it, maybe there's a short in the audio head itself?? I really don't feel like tearing the whole thing apart to get to it, but I suppose I could just unsolder one of the wires...

 

Edit: Nope, no short in the head.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Asaki

[BillC]

Is the tape you're trying to CLOAD actually a BASIC program?

I'm fairly sure that the Space Invaders you're testing with is a ML program, to load those you need to hold START while powering on the computer, then press RETURN after the tone.

[Asaki]

Sorry, yeah, I am holding start+option and loading that way, CLOAD was just a test. I might try finding a BASIC CAS to see if that works, but I have doubts.

 

I also tried muting the left audio channel, but that didn't change anything (except now I don't have to listen to that noise).

[BillC]

It's probably the drive belt that's slipping, if the tape doesn't play at the proper speed the frequency of the tones won't be correct and the data won't be passed by the filters.

 

There are threads about this with drive belt sizes, but I don't remember if they gave the sizes for the early model.

 

PS: A simple test would be to play an audio tape in the 410, you may be able to hear if the speed isn't constant.

 

In BASIC POKE 54018,52 to turn the motor on, and POKE 54018,60 to turn the motor off.

Edited August 7, 2016 by BillC

[Rybags]

CLOAD is fine to test a tape drive. It will load the first record then stop with ERROR - 21.

 

That at least would verify that it's able to read tapes which is all you want at this point.

[Asaki]

It's probably the drive belt that's slipping, if the tape doesn't play at the proper speed the frequency of the tones won't be correct and the data won't be passed by the filters.

I'm feeding audio straight into the circuit board, from WAV files on my laptop, so the drive belt shouldn't be affecting anything. Unless there's some switch somewhere that says not to send the right audio track if the belt isn't spinning, but I don't see anything like that in here. I haven't tried using a different device to play the audio, because this method works with my Apple II perfectly, I don't see why this would be any different.

 

Motor turns on and off just fine. I hold start+option, turn on the Atari, it makes those beeping noises, I let go of start+option, press play on the tape player (is this even necessary?), press play on the WAV file, hit the return key, and the motor in the tape player comes on automatically. At this point, I know it's not a problem on the Atari's end, because if audio is being sent through the left channel, it will play it on my TV. About 48 seconds later, it flashes an error real quick (might say "BOOT ERROR"?), and goes to the Self Test screen. Mind you, this is my first time using a 410, so if I've missed a step somewhere, let me know.

 

The only clue I can find is that right audio seems to be shorted to ground somewhere, unless this is normal?? I have no idea, I don't see any solder bridges or anything. Caps all look fine. Maybe a bad transistor?? I don't know where to test on the ICs. The field guide was not very helpful.

 

It seems like such a straightforward circuit, I'm surprised no one has isolated it into a smaller device...but I guess that wouldn't be quite as nostalgic, and I'm sure there's not much interest in tapes when one can easily emulate a disk drive with SIO2PC.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Asaki

[Rybags]

You have to press Play otherwise the head stays retracted.

 

Since you think the belt is OK, just try doing a CSAVE of a 1-liner Basic program then try to CLOAD it from real cassette.

[Asaki]

U18 on the motherboard wouldn't be causing these issues, would it?

 

I'm doing the memory upgrade mod right now, and just pulled that chip (SN74S32N), and the pins are coated in what looks like char.

 

Every other chip looks fine. I guess I'm just going to clean it real good and pop it back in, unless anyone knows anything.

 

Edit: It's not coming off. Looking at it under brighter light, I guess it's just oxidation or something.

 

You have to press Play otherwise the head stays retracted.

Right, but I mean since I'm sending audio straight to the circuit board, the head isn't even doing anything.

 

Since you think the belt is OK...

No, the belt is not okay =) I just don't see why it would have any affect on the data circuit.

 

I will try loading up a BASIC saved CAS file later, though.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Asaki

[k-Pack]

These articles/book have information on the 410. You may fine them of some use. They are all on the web somewhere.

 

 

De Re Atari, Appendix C: The Atari Cassette, The Atari Program Exchange, 1982, Page C1-C18.

Evans, Carl, "Tape Topics: The 410 Hi-Rel Mod: Eliminate the most frequent cause of bad loads", Antic February 1984, Page 76-77.

Evans, Carl, "Tape Topics: Get Your Head Straight, The line on alignment", Antic 1983.

Evans, Carl, "Tape Topics: Schematic: Tighten the window", Antic, Apr 1983. (410)

Evans, Carl, "Tape Topics: Last of the schematics", Antic, May 1983. (410 mod)

[+kheller2]

Volume is important for the playback, and so is timing of the "leader", especially on 410s. I'm assuming you found a CAS of SpaceInvaders, did the CAS2WAV, and are playing that back (from your audio out jack on your laptop directly to the tape heads?). You should hear some nice screeching tones from the system as it loads. I think the first thing to consider is that the CD/Tape adapter didn't work... that could have been a head alignment issue with the adapter, but this is leading me to think something is wrong with your playback system either volume or time wise.

 

You should be able to go the other way, and save a program from Atari BASIC to your laptop ... just to see.

[Asaki]

These articles/book have information on the 410.

Thanks. I saw a couple of them online, but they didn't look like they would help with my issue. I'll have to check the rest of them.

 

Volume is important for the playback, and so is timing of the "leader", especially on 410s.

I thought maybe that might have something to do with it, since there seems to be an awful lot of tone before the data actually starts...but it doesn't seem to be helping.

 

I also figured out that I was missing the -F argument with A8CAS, but those WAVs don't load either.

 

I either get error 138, or 140, or 142 in BASIC.

 

You should hear some nice screeching tones from the system as it loads.

I can hear it very faintly, but I think that might just be interference.

 

You should be able to go the other way, and save a program from Atari BASIC to your laptop ... just to see.

Yeah, I tried that, and everything worked just fine. I can hear the "nice screeching tones" you were talking about, it doesn't do that during load. Although if I try CLOAD directly after a CSAVE, I can hear the one high-pitched tone, but nothing else after that.

 

I even tried loading the resulting WAV in Altirra and it almost loaded, but I think my recording levels are too high, and it stopped shortly after the data starts.

 

Curiously, the waveforms look a lot different from any of the CAS files I've looked at, which are all just one great big brick wall of audio. I don't know if that provides any clues or not.

 

[Asaki]

It's time for another Bad Idea, Worse Idea...

 

"Let's see, I have one actual Atari cassette, and I know there's a working cassette player here in the garage...okay, if I just plug the adapter into the headphone jack and GADZOOKS, THE WHOLE THING IS -FILLED- WITH ANTS!!!"

[Asaki]

Well, I guess I'm giving up on this. I've ordered an FT232RL board and hopefully that works out a lot better.