I need help understanding MyIDE II, Mybios, SDX, etc.

[Gunstar]

I've been an Atari 8-bit user since '85, and a hardware hobbyist for about 15 years, after taking some electronics in college, but I've never been a programmer or "power user" with my Atari, and now I am trying to learn it all, including Atari memory map, How OS's work with memory, and using drives like MyIDE II and sophisticated DOS's, namely SpartaDOS X.

 

My 1200XL has 256K memory, soon it will be 512K. So I've got plenty of ram, but I still want to use as little of it as possible for overhead, especially in the base 64K ram area, preferably leaving at least 128K available for the usual 64/128 games and programs.

 

I just recently acquired the SDX super cart w/RTC and MyIDE II cartridge. I've been jumping around between the AtariMax site & forums, SDX site and FJC's Atari8 site trying to understand how to get myIDE II setup and working with SDX and APT, etc. and there is a lot I am a bit confused about and want to confirm and deny some things through a series of questions here.

 

I want to start off with MyBIOS first. I understand that this is a new OS that is required to use MyIDE II drive, right? I can't use one of the MyIDE OS's on a 32-in-1 OS board to work with MyIDE II?

 

I've read that you can run MyBIOS from the MyIDE cartridge, but it takes up system ram? All OS roms use some amount of system ram to operate, correct? But MyBIOS from the MyIDE II uses more? I also read that it's possible to have MyBIOS as an internal ROM chip? And this is better because it uses less system ram if any at all? What ram memory locations/banks does it use? Can it be place in extended memory?

 

Is the MyBIOS OS stored in the MyIDE sram? Or where? Rom on the MyIDE cartridge? How much sram does it use if it is stored in sram? What else is pre-programmed into sram if anything? MyIDE menu?

 

I have a 32-in-1 OS board installed in my 1200XL, with internal BASIC. I've heard of people replacing the BASIC eprom with one for another language or rom game(s). Would it be possible to put a MyBIOS eprom in the BASIC rom slot and maybe choose MyBIOS or 32-in-1 OS with the OPTION button like with BASIC? Or is an internal MyBIOS rom only for use with other drive solutions like SiDE/2, IDE+ 2.0, etc. and the only way to use MyIDE II is with the cartridge based MyBIOS?

 

Now a couple questions about SDX with MyIDE II.

 

Is it possible for me to use my SDX/RTC cartridge with MyIDE II or must SDX reside on the MyIDE cartridge?

 

SDX can be stored and load from either the FAT32 loader or SRAM? If so, does one way use more system ram than the other?

 

SDX can be set up to use extended memory banks, correct?

 

As to the MyIDE II cart in general, getting it all set-up and the CF card initialized, partitioned and formated, my understanding is that for the FAT32 loader area I would create and fill it with programs on the PC and then plug it back into the MyIDE II cart and start using it, right?

 

What would be the maximum partition size for the FAT32 loader?

 

I use the Maxflash studio on the PC to create a workbook for flashing the SRAM and then actually flash the sram through SIO2PC, right?

 

For creating HD partitions for MyDOS or SpartaDOS I would use the MyIDE menu to initialize the CF card and then partition, format and write to the CF card through my DOS of choice, correct?

 

How about sram ramdisk? is this automatic, and is there a way to NOT have it, like by filling up sram with other roms? I've never cared for ramdisks, and really don't see the point unless they have battery back-up and even less so since I have high-speed I/O with the MyIDE II and CF card anway. I'd just as soon use D8: as a partition on the CF card.

 

I guess that's enough questions for now...

 

Thanks in advance for all answers and help given!

Edited October 3, 2016 by Gunstar

[Marius]

Hi Gunstar,

 

You have a lot of good questions here, but I think there are too many questions in one thread to give a clear answer.

 

I am at work now, so I can not answer at this moment, but I'm pretty sure I can help you further.

 

Larry (atariage member) is also a MyIDE specialist ... I'm sure he can help you further too.

 

What is -for this moment- the most important part for you? SDX or non-SDX use?

[mr-atari]

I answered parts of this on the atarimax-forum.

 

Short addition:

MyBIOS uses the same RAM as a stock OS, nothing fancy.

But remember the MyBIOS-RAM runs from the 16k below the stock OS and so this memory can't be used by others.

Same goes for SDX, that also uses this OSRAM for it's own needs.

 

Beside that:

You can setup your CF-card as flexible as you want.

 

Use APT/SDX

Use FAT with the loader

MyBIOS and the MyIDE-partitions.

All three together on one CF-card, how wonderful.

 

Flashing:

Better NOT customize your MyIDE-][ flash-portion before you know what you are doing.

Always start with the MyIDE-][.bin as downloaded from the MyIDE-][ forum.

You MUST include the FAT-loader in your custom-content always if you have NO SIO2something!

 

Beside that, as in the 80's just trail and error, see yourself what happens.

For using SDX or MyBIOS advanced knowledge of how the Atari computer works is vital.

 

Later,

Sijmen.

[suspicious_milk]

It's many of these questions (and lack of clear answers) that caused me to go with Side2.

 

Whenever researching the forums, Side2 problems seemed few and far, and even with those few, I understood and or knew the solution. This combined with Atarimax products being hell bent on making me use Windows or using a PC as an anchor ⚓... Just, no. Not for me.

 

Sio2sd is super easy, but I had more issues setting it up over the Side2! (just a minor fluke)

 

Not, trying to slam Atarimax, I'm glad they're around supporting Atari. The community would be for worse without them.

 

But the questions and answers here, confirms I made the best decision, for me.

 

Thanks, Gunstar, for asking here. Hopefully these get clear answers, I'm sure it'll help many!

[+Larry]

I could probably write quite a bit about the MyIDE-II, but then it is already all at the Atarimax web site, including some videos.

 

Here would be my advice: if you primarily want to use SDX, get a Side2 cart. The Side2 offers more if you use it with an Ultimate 1 MB. I only use the Side2 as a dedicated SDX cart, and it does fine in that job.

 

If you are happy with MyDos or other Atari (menu) dos, then the MyIDE-II is a very good choice. It is not a particularly good choice for SDX use. It works, but there are definitely better ways. Your Super SDX cart cannot be used with the MyIDE-II.

 

If you are just looking to store and play games, then either Side2 or MyIDE-II will do fine. I'm a MyDos user 99% of the time, and I rarely play games. The MyIDE-II is a "Swiss Army Knife" of cartridges. Mr-Atari has developed many new features for it, using Steve's excellent cartridge platform.

 

-Larry

[Marius]

I use all the features of MyIDE ][ at the same time

 

I'm getting more and more a 'heavy' SDX user, and I must say: it goes VERY well with MyIDE ][ ... the only thing that is missing is a RealTimeClock, which is in SIDE2.

 

I also use MyBIOS, both Eprom and Flash versions, and I use the FAT32 loader.

 

What very important is to remember with MyIDE ][ ... there is a learning curve.

 

For novice users there is the outstanding Fat32 loader which can run ROM files, .R16 files (special ROM files adapted for MyIDE, mostly XE-cartridges), XEX/COM/BIN files, .BAS files... and limited .ATR support.

 

For the more advanced users there is the very compatible MyBIOS OS replacement. It adds just that extra what you will miss with the FAT32 loader.

 

And for the extpert users there is that FLASH content of the cart, that can be altered, so you can also have SDX.

 

You even can combine MyBIOS partitions with SDX partitions. You can run SDX with and without MyBIOS.

 

For me it is all very clear, but I can imagine this is not the case when you are not so used yet to the MyIDE ][ cart.

 

I might have some time later tonight to answer more of your questions.

 

I'm sure you'll love MyIDE ][

[Marius]

Your Super SDX cart cannot be used with the MyIDE-II.

 

 

Are you 100% sure about this? What is a Super SDX cart? I have used my MyIDE 2 with several SDX distributions and cart, and it all works without a single problem.

 

Although I tend to agree with you that there might be better solutions, when you are specific after SDX use... but I find SDX and MyIDE a very good combination.

 

The only thing that I would LOVE to happen one day, is that MyBIOS will use the APT partition format as it's native partition system. That would merge SDX (APT) and MyBIOS even better.

But to be honest, that is my only complaint.

[+Larry]

Hi Marius.

 

The SSDX cartridge by Dropcheck is a flash version of a real SDX cart with RTC and pass-thru included. The only way that you could use this with MyIDE-II is to use the pass-thru and plug the M2 cart into the top of the SSSDX. The boot menu will come up, but when you try to go to the MyIDE-II, it black screens. If you try to go to the FAT32 menu, it will not read the contents of the card. If you try to boot a regular cart that is included in the MyIDE-II (say ASMED), then the car will come up, but there is no dos, and if you try you go to self test.

 

Now I haven't tried to load MyIDE-II version of SDX, but since you can't get to the CF card, I can't see how that would work. Maybe someone else can figure out a way, but it's not apparent to me.

 

Gtx,

Larry

[Marius]

Oh I have such a cart too... I'll check it out here.

[retrocanada76]

I use my SuperSpartaDOS cart with my MyIDE-II stacked on it.

 

The MyIDE2.sys access the SDX partitions without any issue. All of this in my Atari-800 that I modded for PHI2B signal.

 

My only advice is: don't try to flash the super SDX cart using uflash or you may brick it as I did! Luckly I have an eprom programmer and re-flashed it good.

[flashjazzcat]

My only advice is: don't try to flash the super SDX cart using uflash or you may brick it as I did!

The developer of the Super SDX cart asserted that UFlash works perfectly well with it, providing the device is treated as a SIDE2 cart. I don't have a Super SDX cart so cannot test, but if you wish to report an issue I would be more than happy to look into it.

Edited October 3, 2016 by flashjazzcat

[Marius]

Well I tested it here now too...

 

I had no MyIDE2.sys on my SuperCart and I did not want to re-flash the thing, so I stored myide2.sys on a physical floppy disk in my 1050 and I also created a config.sys on D1: in my 1050... and I attached the MyIDE 2 cart to the Super Cart.

 

As expected the 1050 loads the config.sys and then loads the myide2.sys and then the APT partitions are detected and I have access to all my apt partitions on my MyIDE 2 cart.

 

Indeed: you can not use the Flash content while using SDX, but that makes sense.

You also could combine MyBIOS partitions and SDX this way.

 

Thanks for the suggestion by the way. I did not think of this earlier, but it is a pretty good idea to hook up the MyIDE 2 to the SDX cart. When I switch off the SDX cart using the red switch I can use the MyIDE 2 like it is connected without SDX; cool enough the MyIDE 2 cart re-inits when I switch off the SDX supercart followed by reset.

 

@Larry: so why yours does not want to do this is puzzling me. Are you 100% sure you have the right myide driver for SDX?

[+Larry]

Well, the Myide.sys likely is the issue. I just stacked the carts and tried to boot the Atari -- no driver. I don't have a switch -- mine is just the "drop-in" pcb for the old SDX cart shell. What I expected was that the MyIDE drive and the FAT32 loader would be accessible (it would see the MyDos Partition just as SDX can see the MyDos partition on the IDE+2 as a legitimate D1:), but it evidently doesn't work that way. If you can't use the FAT32 loader and card contents, what is the advantage in using the cart stacked? Not a rhetorical question -- I don't see an advantage to using it that way. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

-Larry

[flashjazzcat]

I guess the idea is to use the Supercart's RTC, which the MYIDE cart doesn't have. But using both together seems to me fraught with spectacular complications (as does using APT and MYBIOS partitions on the same media). The MYIDE2.SYS driver is loaded from the SDX CAR: device (i.e. the ROM-disk, and the driver must be placed there first using the SDX imaging tool), and it provides access to APT partitions. If the booted SDX ROM doesn't contain the driver, there will be no driver and no APT partitions.

[retrocanada76]

I see a world of advantages when stacking the MyIDE-II to the super-SDX cart:

 

1) Instant SDX boot (compared to loading using FAT32 loader, selecting it and loading into the SRAM). There is a way to embed it on the WB but I could only make it using the 4.4.7 not the 4.4.8 and it is not a simple task)

2) RTC

3) Access to FAT16 using FATFS.SYS. You can mount and have read access to it and transfer files between your PC and Atari easily

4) 256KB image instead of 128KB for the MyIDE-II, you can add more stuff on it.

5) SDX partitions are faster than the ramdisk. You want to use SDX on a fast file system. There is no bank switching on the Atari, you can compile a program from it faster than on ramdisk.

[flashjazzcat]

DLT provide a 512KB SDX ROM for flashing direct to the MYIDE2 cart ROM. If you put MYIDE2.SYS on CAR: first, you can enjoy 1), 3), 4) and 5). Of course, you lose the FAT loader, MYBIOS, and everything else, and it must be said that you are then basically left with a SIDE2, but without an RTC and no XEX loader.

[retrocanada76]

That's why I prefer stacking it up

[Gunstar]

Thanks to everyone for all the great replies. I'll just address them all here instead of quoting individually.

 

As to why I chose MyIDE 2 instead of SiDE 2 or one of the other many cart/pbi/sio options available today. I did extensive research into it all, and I did finally decide it was either MyIDE 2 or SiDE 2. While not a SpartaDOS professional yet, I have been using it since ver. 3.2/3.3 I got with my SpartaDOS construction set back about '85 or '86, because even then I new I wanted something more powerful and flexible than Atari DOS's. I prefer the command line structure, and the ability to use batch files and high-speed SIO (with the US Doubler I got with SD construction set. So, even though I like maximum flexibility, and therefore will indeed be using Mybios and MyDOS as well, for software that isn't SpartaDOS compatible, SDX was a priority, so I was leaning heavily toward SiDE 2 for this fact, but, when I found out that SDX can now be used with MyIDE 2, that changed everything because I am a loyal AtariMax customer who has been well taken care of by Steve over the years. My 1200XL is an AtariMax upgrade story. I have the 32-in-1, the AtariMax Rambo memory upgrade, SIO2PC/10502PC and A.P.E all in my computer for years,

 

I'm working on upgrading some other Atari's and at least one of them will get the U!MB/SiDE 2/VBXE/Rapidus treatment in full, but the 1200XL is all Atarimax except for Dropcheck's PAL conversion kit and SSDX cartridges and my own mods and fixes. And now, after reading the replies here, and getting the REAL scoop on APT/SDX/MyIDE 2 it's looking more and more like MyIDE 2 is the far more flexible system than SiDE 2 (alone) and I will be able to use my internal Warp+ OS with SDX and MyIDE instead of bypassing it for just one OS: MyBIOS, but, I will have the MyBIOS/MyDOS option in addition instead of as a forced alternative bypassing my wonderful 32-in-1 OS.

 

@ Mr. Atari

 

I appreciate all your input and your MyBIOS and MyIDE 2 seem to be wonderful and I look forward to a fun future using them. I appreciate your reply here and I will read your replies at AtariMax forums with interest. But I discovered for myself quite quickly that my APT/SDX/MyIDE 2 questions would not be acceptably answered over there between all you MyDOS fans that don't even care about SpartaDOS and apparently know no more than I about, as the answers here from MyIDE 2&SDX users attest too. I will look forward to your expertise with your products as questions arise.

 

@ Larry

 

Sorry Larry, I'm sure your an expert with MyIDE 2 as long as it not using it with SDX, but all your SDX advice and knowledge is lacking and/or dead wrong, as other posts here attest too.

As to it all being answered already over at Atarimax forums, well, after scouring for all those answers over there in that piece-meal forum, is what confused me and brought up all these questions I posted here because info at Atarimax forum was lacking, confusing, hard to find and there was no answers to using SDX and APT partitions over there, only links to SDX and Atari8 sites for some of the answers.

 

I'm here now due to dissatisfaction with the information and answers I got at AtariMax forums. There is a lot of info there, but it's like searching through a junkyard to find the parts you need. There needs to be straight-forward, step-by-step tutorial guides over there for all aspects of MyIDE including SDX/APT and these should be in big, bold, can't be missed topics. Maybe I'll do one for using SDX/APT once I learn it all the hard way, by scouring several sites and asking a million questions.

 

@ RetroCanada76, Flashjazzcat and ProWizard, thank you for your incredibly valuable insight into the SDX cart (I didin't know I could reflash it myself with Uflash), and how I can indeed use my SSDX cart and have RTC too, just like SiDE 2, but with all the other MyIDE 2 advantages too! I'm more than happy to know I can use config.sys and MyIDE2.sys files from my 1050 to use my SDX cartridge with MyIDE 2 at least until I get my SSDX cart reflashed. And, I don't have to mess with the sram at this point either, and have both my SDX partitions, MyBIOS/MyDOS partitions AND FAT16 AND FAT32 partitions! SiDE who? I'm also glad I alerted you guys to the possibility of using SDX cartridge with MyIDE 2 stacked, so you could prove it to work! It was my first thought along with not having to permanently bypass my wonderful 32-in-1 Warp+ OS when using MyIDE 2& MyBIOS. That seemed like a total waste of an awesome upgrade, even if MyBIOS is the bees-knees. Mr. Atari's initial answer as why MyBIOS was so great was it has high-speed SIO...umm...I've been using that with Warp+ OS and several other OS's on the 32-in-1 for years, and as to compatibility, I had all those wonderful compatible OS's on there too, including MyIDE OS versions, so his answer didn't excite me. I'm sure it's a wonderful OS in it's own right and I will love to have it as an alternative OS with MyIDE 2, I'm just glad it's not the ONLY one i can use, since now I know APT/SDX does not use it and I can use my Warp+ OS with them and MyIDE 2.

 

In conclusion, I am very meticulous and know better than to do anything with the MyIDE 2 cart until I understand it inside and out first. It's still a virgin along with a virgin CF card awaiting the time I know what I'm doing before I do it to it.

 

I finally got some SDX related answers I was looking for, and what was a bit frightening (due to fear mongers saying I got the wrong product for SDX use) it's looking more and more to me like my decision to go with MyIDE 2 and the SSDX cartridge instead of SiDE 2 to be a much more flexible set-up. At this point it's looking like MyIDE 2 cart + SSDX/RTC cart > Side 2 cart + flash SDX/RTC. And that's not even including the bonuses of FAT32 and MyBIOS/myDOS options.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Gunstar

[retrocanada76]

If you want another advice: I keep 2 CFs for my MyIDE-2 one for MyBiOS and and all the FAT32 Loader games and another only for SDX partitions / FAT16 for exchange. So I don't mess with each other. I found out the my bios partitions get locked after using FDISK and creating the SDX partitions (the win32 LBA tool to import export them cannot access them anymore).

 

Also I don't know if they overlap each other.

[flashjazzcat]

I'd advise separate media too. The APT partition editor (FDISK) is designed to work with APT partitioned media, period. If hacks exist to provide perfunctory APT support alongside incompatible partitioning schemes, use them at your own risk.

[Gunstar]

I will definitely do that, thanks for the advice!

 

My ultimate system set-up goal (at least until FJC's GUI is official and released) is to use Tom hunt's ATOS desktop/windows environment, which requires SpartaDOS, but specifically SD 3.3a for hard-drive set-ups, but I believe I will be able to use SDX with ATOS too, as long as they don't conflict in memory, so I just have to set up SDX properly to use ATOS through the config.sys and/or a batch file. So I have to figure that out. I'm hoping that I may already have the answer, from studying the different configurations of config.sys for different Atari memory and OS configurations Mr. Atari(?) listed in an SDX thread on Atarimax forums, which is that with my extended memory Atari, I can relocate the ram SDX uses into an extended bank, and therefore be out of the way of ATOS in memory.

 

But I just really like the ATOS environment and compatibility, and extras like wall-paper, and using looping demos and screen savers, and it just seems to be the best there is for GOS/GUI environments, at least until FJC's GUI is complete. But, without the high-speed I/O of MyIDE or some other HDD solution, ATOS is SLOW. Even an 3xSIO with SIO2PC it's slow. But it will work very fast off of MyIDE 2, and since I'll be using SDX with it, then FJC's The Last Word processor can also be used through ATOS. A good substitute until I can get my hands on FJC's finished GUI and GUI version of TLWP (all working with MyIDE 2 as a replacement for MyBIOS and any DOS-hopefully it uses APT). I'm going to use the set-up to write a novel and for articles for Pro © Atari and maybe others.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

SpartaDOS 3.x lives in the Shadow RAM under the OS anyway, so presumably ATOS doesn't intrude on that area of memory. With SDX, USE BANKED in CONFIG.SYS will give you the lowest possible MEMLO, however.

 

Somewhat OT, but I noticed on another forum some talk of the WIP GOS not supporting wallpaper. It's understandable that observers of the incredibly long GUI thread may have missed the demo of wallpapers, but in any case wallpaper is certainly supported (as will other trivial augmentations such as screen savers, etc) and I was a little puzzled by the presumption that it would not be. Since ATOS is a graphical shell on top of DOS, it may yet turn out to be your best bet if the intention is to launch legacy software via some kind of "desktop" menu. The WIP GOS is a pre-emptively multi-tasking, micro-kernel based graphical OS primarily intended to run GUI applications. The scale of the undertaking (punctuated by frequent hiatuses while I work on other projects, such as the APT partition editor and drivers mentioned in this very topic) ensures a prolonged development cycle which delights devoted armchair critics.

 

I'm not sure what advantages there are to using ATOS to launch the existing version of The Last Word instead of simply typing X LW.EXE at the DOS prompt, but I'm always delighted to hear of the program being put to practical use.

Edited October 3, 2016 by flashjazzcat

[Gunstar]

SpartaDOS 3.x lives in the Shadow RAM under the OS anyway, so presumably ATOS doesn't intrude on that area of memory. With SDX, USE BANKED in CONFIG.SYS will give you the lowest possible MEMLO, however.

 

Somewhat OT, but I noticed on another forum some talk of the WIP GOS not supporting wallpaper. It's understandable that observers of the incredibly long GUI thread may have missed the demo of wallpapers, but in any case wallpaper is certainly supported (as will other trivial augmentations such as screen savers, etc) and I was a little puzzled by the presumption that it would not be. Since ATOS is a graphical shell on top of DOS, it may yet turn out to be your best bet if the intention is to launch legacy software via some kind of "desktop" menu. The WIP GOS is a pre-emptively multi-tasking, micro-kernel based graphical OS primarily intended to run GUI applications. The scale of the undertaking (punctuated by frequent hiatuses while I work on other projects, such as the APT partition editor and drivers mentioned in this very topic) ensures a prolonged development cycle which delights devoted armchair critics.

 

I'm not sure what advantages there are to using ATOS to launch the existing version of The Last Word instead of simply typing X LW.EXE at the DOS prompt, but I'm always delighted to hear of the program being put to practical use.

I presumed that in the end your GOS would have all those niceties included, if they already do, then fantastic! I was just under the impression that your GUI isn't quite in a state yet to start using it and give up all other OS;s and DOS's, and work with all or at least the major I/O devices we enjoy today. So I haven't tried it, just read about it at your site, watched your videos, and occasionally look at the AA thread, but yes, I was away from the scene for a while and that thread grew into a monster that I dare not even attempt to delve into for info beyond what you provide at your site.

 

As to wanting to use TLWP with ATOS, it's just a bonus and not necessary, but I have fun using the combination of ATOS and SpartaDOS and want to use them as much as possible, especially since it will actually be fast with MyIDE 2. That's all. I intended to use your word processor for some real world applications anyway, but if I couldn't get it to work through ATOS, then that's where the other CF card and MyBIOS/MyDOS would come into the picture. But it's nice to not have to switch to different OS's and DOS's for all the different serious applications I use if I can help it. But it's all about merging my Atari and it's fun use with some real work, But yes, until your GUI is complete and released, with a library of GUI based software to use with it, I do like loading non-gui apps through a desktop. Continuity in fun. And when I use other apps that have their own windows/icon driven environments, like some of the 8-bit desktop publishing and art programs, it seems a bit more seemless, from a desktop window/icon environment to something similar with in an application, it's almost like have a full GUI environment. Of course there's always the applications like SynCalc and Synfile and your word processor that are command driven instead of graphical, but I use them because they utilize my extended memory, but if I don't have to leave my desktop environment and reboot to use them, all the better.

 

But ATOS is more than just a desktop file loader. Many programs that can fit in memory with ATOS can actually be installed, with an icon in a file window, and then you can run the program, and still back out to the desktop for whatever reason, and then return to the program where you left off! If the program conflicts with ATOS, then you use the the navigator instead of windows and ATOS dumps out of memory to make room, but you can still quit any program with a keystroke and ATOS will load back to the desktop, without reset or rebooting. It's a bit more useful than any other desktop environment I've tried, including Diamond, of which I was an early adopter back in the day with the first release on cartridge of 2.0 and I upgraded to 3.0 later, ATOS is better...as long as you have an HDD or equivelant to run it from. It's true that no programs were ever made for ATOS windows specifically, like the 3-4 apps Diamond GOS had, but they were terribly slow and bug-ridden, and with each new edition, some bugs were fixed but others appeared, so they were hardly for practical use anyway. I continue to look forward to your GUI/GOS with quality, usable gui apps.

 

It's not like I'm not flexible, and I'm certainly not trying to make ATOS/SDX/MyIDE the end-all, be-all set-up for my using pleasure, hell, I still use cartridges and real floppy disk auto-load programs and I even still use cassette tape software! But when it's time to get serious on my computer, I want the fastest and prettiest and most powerful environment to work in. I will have my cake and eat it too! In the end, that's what your GUI is all about too, isn't it? The prettiest, friendliest, fastest and most powerful environment possible for the Atari? I want it too. but it the mean time I'll make do with what I have available to me.

 

If your GUI is ready for prime-time in my life and on my Atari, then let me know and I'll go download it and try it out.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

The WIP GOS is far from finished, and even if it were nearing completion, this would still be no reason to abandon SpartaDOS X or any other method of running "legacy" applications. Possibly one of the reasons earlier graphical shells didn't catch on was that they were essentially little more than a means of launching conventional DOS applications using a desktop metaphor. On the other hand, a shift of focus away from legacy applications to a consistent graphical UI may prove to be a reason a multitasking graphical OS won't catch on.

 

But for the reasons you mention, whether the WIP GOS currently supports wallpaper or not, it's not really anything to get excited about until the OS is in a usable state. A wallpaper picker will be something to code up in an afternoon, and pales into insignificance when considered alongside tasks such as writing file system drivers or symbolic relocating loaders or multi-line text controls. Wallpapers are very nice, but are really the icing on the cake, and it would be rather foolish to ice the cake until the sponge is cooked and risen.

 

In any case, the mish-mash of UIs I see in some other desktop shells was really a motivating factor in creating an OS whose native applications will only be able to access the display via an API. It's also a reason I'm not too worried about running legacy applications, since they mess up not only the screen, but potentially the entire memory map. Of course this depends on there being some kind of "killer GUI app", otherwise the resulting system is without purpose. In a way, the WIP GOS's very ambitiousness may make it an impractical and distant proposition, but I saw no point whatsoever in writing another Diamond GOS. The point of the GOS - from my perspective, at least - is to create something for which there is no precedent on the Atari 8-bit, and to see what can be done in terms of intense multi-tasking and graphical UIs. To be fairly blunt about it, it would be much easier (and less time consuming) to forego the multi-tasking, the file system, the window manager, the proportional fonts, etc, and write something which didn't do a great deal other than present a desktop environment with icons and drop-down menus for the purpose of launching applications. But I'm fairly heartened by the interest shown by developers in SymbOS (which is very much the guiding light of the Atari system), and that's a long-haul project with huge ambition which is going from strength to strength.

Edited October 4, 2016 by flashjazzcat

[Gunstar]

But as to the difference to having a GUI environment that's all inclusive rather than a DOS with a desktop slapped on, to me, just seems to be the difference between Mac OS and Windows/MS-DOS. Even today Windows still has MS-DOS hiding in it's core. I see no reason why a DOS & desktop combination can't be just as powerful and useful if it is supported with it's proprietary apps. especially with a powerful DOS like Sparta working behind the scenes and still with a command line window, just like MS-DOS/Windows. But the support with apps has been the real short-coming of all the GOS desktops out there, it seems to me, not that it was a separate DOS and GOS system instead of being more integrated.

 

Obviously your GOS is light-years more advanced with all the work you put into it, but I also think it's still possible to have a powerful windows environment with SpartaDOS under it, it just never happened. And I'm sure there are plenty of cool things like you mentioned that just couldn't be implemented if you have to stay in the guide lines of a DOS, due to the limited nature of the 8-bits that could be done with a Windows/MS-DOS environment with so much more memory and processing power.

 

But your way is the exception, like Mac OS, not the rule, like Windows/MS-DOS, GEM/TOS, Workbench/Amiga DOS (or whatever it's called), even the Tandy Coco had a DOS/desktop system for the Coco 3 that was pretty nifty. Not that the exception isn't the better way. I prefer Mac's over Windows PC's. But I do still stand in defense of a good desktop/DOS combo, they don't have to be and often aren't slapped on graphical file loaders, it's just that's what they mostly ended up getting used for since they did support loading legacy programs and few or no apps supported their windows systems. Don't blame the combo, blame the lack of support.

 

And if your GOS system isn't going to support legacy software, I'm definitely still on-board and excited, but that means I'll still be using ATOS/SpartaDOS for all my legacy software, there's no replacement, just a fantastic alternative.

 

But if you bail on us with your GUI/GOS, FJC, then in protest I'm going to forget all my graphical OS dreams, erase or burn all Atari desktop software I own and go back to strictly command line DOS in protest! Just pretend window and icon environments never existed.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Gunstar