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some POKEY stuff

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#126 Sheddy OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:11 PM

To talk of "dissonance" using POKEY for creating music, is to ask people, if a volcano is hot. The "dissonance" can be reduced but never disabled. Depending on the "unsharp" 8 bit resolution, "talking of harmonics" is also useless.It's also a method of doing a broader sound, to keep things slightly detuned. Also, tunes that were based on "A" have a better response than tunes that base on "A#" ... so how to get a common base ? It would be nice to have some real musician around. But that's also an inversion ... because it would imply to have a musical environment available. And, instead of creating working harmonics, some "clever guy" comes around the corner, turning things back to the false...


Indeed there are Pokey limits, but only slightly out of tune harmony is better for most people than way out of tune.

#127 Irgendwer ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:19 PM

https://en.m.wikiped...rg/wiki/Harmony

Perception section may be interesting for why most people don't prefer dissonance (out of tune) over instrument type or "flavour" of sound.

 

This was an interesting read but points in this case into the wrong direction.

We are talking about a conversion job here and not creative work when somebody is free to compose what he wants.

He just tortured our ears with a totally failed conversion which was regarding to source material quite ok (otherwise I wouldn't be able to fix it so easily!).

 

 

Just for you emkay:

This is my last post in this thread, I promise!

 

 

Your argumentation is not even useless, it's just silly.

...
And, as long as you plan only to nag on my experiments, without similar comments on other's works, so please stick your dumb comments into the center of your butt.

 

...

It's "How" "Irgendwer" posts, not the critisism.

 

:thumbsup:

Discrediting me may help you to come over your cognitive dissonance, but doesn't change the facts:

 

 

...
Really, I 'm thinking of doing some optimisations .... in the volume ... which is the main problem.
...

 

BS

 

...
Some tunes work well, some tunes drop exactly into the trap of the given limits.

 

At least questionable in this case.

 

 

...
A notation row played wrong does not make your ears bleeding?
...

 

It does obviously.

 

 

...
The tune cannot be done better there.

 

BS

 

 

About changing notes.... The tune is the real "Star Trek" tune. Changing parts of it, makes it "not real" anymore.

 

BS

 

The conversion was simply rubbish and deserves to be called so.

 

Why anybody should discuss with you about POKEY, RMT, Altirra or whatever limitations when you are not able to detect the major problem that your port mixed different scales?

Yes, POKEY has it limitations and frequency derivations and sometimes tends to cancel or distort sounds. But these problems are light years away from the problems you introduce in the conversions you consistently publish here.

If a sound is 10Hz off, putting it dis harmonic 1234Hz away to make an "other problem" more apparent isn't the solution, it is just crap.

BTW: Blaming RMT, other people for bad conversions or pretending POKEY limitations isn't a solution neither. Think about your own restrictions first!

You handed a tenor and alto flute to musicians, supplied the wrong scores and complain about their breathing technique.

 

I many ways you have a perception problem, which would be not bad on its own.

Like non-swimming would be.

But applying as a life guard then is - and telling other life guards at the water-line that they have to take care to keep their clothes dry is.

 

You take very often the opportunity to let others know how bad their work is and aren't able to admit that you more than once failed miserably.

I don't like you attitude. You are resistant to learn and listen!

 

 

...

It would be nice to have some real musician around.

...

 

"flashjazzcat" e.g. is, you successfully scared him off. I'm too, and like him, I must return to planet Earth now... (http://atariage.com/...-4#entry3378267)


Edited by Irgendwer, Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:14 PM.


#128 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:46 PM

Such is the situation for all compositions.... it is a a matter of math.. and ear... that is why music is indeed an art form. All instruments have limits and interact with each other, format electronic or not does not matter. The arrangement matters. How the different instruments build on one another and interact matters. You know what pokey is, work with it and it's interactions and you get a fine musical production. Consider it a temperamental multi-phasic instrument, a synthesizer requiring constant adjustment. We constantly tune our instruments while playing on stage or off. What do you thing marching band do? Orchestra? Stage bands? Watch the guitarist turn that peg, the brass adjust their slides, and on and on.. done in real time during performance/recitation!

And yes synthesizers did and some still do have pitch adjustment which if the temperature of moisture has affected the rest of the band, a good keyboardist will adjust as well, live.

 

Truth, it is a horrible port. it is off in so many respects... perhaps take the that sheet crumple it up and start again. Making your own and not using sections that tuned separately and were pushed on stage having and then play parts keyed in unrelated scales


Edited by _The Doctor__, Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:05 PM.


#129 ivop OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:34 PM

emkay, have you compared your version with the adjusted version of irgendwer? I'm not talking about the sound of each instrument (which you call squealing, which is what my GF calls ALL the chiptune music I play around here :D)  but I mean how he transposed certain parts (or voices, or channels) so they sound in harmony? Note there's a difference between harmony and harmonics.

 

Harmony, or lack thereof, is why others like or dislike your conversions.

 

Harmonics, or partials (disharmonic overtones), is why you like or dislike certain instruments.

 

Why don't you take Irgendwer's transposed RMT and apply your instrumentation? Let's see how that works out :)

 

The point that's discussed here now, is the essence of why not more people like your conversions. I think most of us (I do!) appreciate the work you do on instruments. There are a lot of interesting sounds you are able to produce! But unless they play in harmony to eachother, it doesn't matter much that your instruments are better than others (less disharmonic overtones and/or interaction with other instruments due to pokey's nature).

 

[edit: clarifications]


Edited by ivop, Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:45 PM.


#130 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:29 AM

Indeed there are Pokey limits, but only slightly out of tune harmony is better for most people than way out of tune.


What's wrong with people who like "slightly wrong pitch music? (Possibly too much Electric Guitar sounds in their childhood ? and all those distorted sounds broke their eardrums? ) Accumulating the false pitch on and on is like toothaches getting stronger and stronger. To prevent from that, a musician has to find the "release" for that. If this accumulating and releasing changes to get a "zero" mix (as would be at perfect notation frequencies), one can get some fun there.

Edited by emkay, Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:37 AM.


#131 Sheddy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:51 AM

Maybe,Lol

@Ivop Exactly. Music harmony, actual fundamental frequency pitches relative to each other,rather than instrument harmonics.

#132 Sheddy OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:51 AM

Deleted dupe

Edited by Sheddy, Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:52 AM.


#133 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu May 11, 2017 12:31 PM

Music harmony, actual fundamental frequency pitches relative to each other,rather than instrument harmonics.


That's particular the problem with POKEY's 8 bit resolution. It's almost impossible to get notations correct to their frequency pitches. The only solution is to use some "Chord in Dur".
Either use the straight pitch similarities on all available channels and get wrong "note relations " in the "musical" row, which isn't allowed in any music, except POKEY tunes.....???

OR, use always a slight "Chord in Dur" , to get always a "good relation" in the musical/notation row, sounding a bit sour, which is an official "music style" , but not allowed on POKEY???

#134 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri May 12, 2017 2:03 PM

slight "Chord in Dur" , to get always a "good relation" in the musical/notation row, sounding a bit sour, which is an official "music style" , IS allowed on POKEY!!!!! but the key word is SLIGHT!    You also might get away using the other chips to support your sounds... GTIA etc...



#135 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Jul 4, 2017 12:59 AM

It's about POKEY music, and what's possible.

This one is almost as I want it....




Smell the SNES sound?

#136 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Jul 5, 2017 3:22 PM

Thanks to Hollywood, now I have some example, why I dislike most of the Atari tunes ;)



#137 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 1, 2017 2:29 AM

Found again some time for experiments .... sometimes I like it sometimes I hate it.

But it's still RMT 50Hz VBI.... and so on...



#138 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 8, 2017 2:34 PM



#139 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:27 PM

Again something more experimental... not much progress there as the timing still isn't stable.




What's the newest POKEY DLL emulation?

#140 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:45 PM

Using just one POKEY on a stock Atari at one VBI programming doesn't seem cool enough...


Hm... I know, this one doesn't need 2 POKEYs and a lot of CPU...






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