When joysticks got replaced with gamepads

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

But if I push between the up and the left on a "+" shaped gamepad, all I hit is air. Somehow one needs to mash both the up and the left at the same time, for instance by flattening a thumb to push both.

You mush on adjacent sides of the plus and it actuates two directions. The plus shape is an important design evolution rather than a circle or square (SMS pad) because pressing on a square or circle greatly increases the likelyhood that you will accidentally actuate a diagonal when you don't want to. Pressing on the edge of the Dpad precisely actuates the cardinal direction. As for ease of hitting diagonals, it is highly dependent on the depth of the dome shaped pivot at the bottom of the Dpad. Too deep, and diagonals are nigh impossible to hit accurately. Too shallow, and it's difficult not to hit them by accident. And file the dome completely off like some third party pads manufactured by clone companies whose names I will not mention (Retro Duo portable, I'm looking at YOU), and it becomes possible to accidentally depress all four directions simultaneously, causing certain games to freak out. This can be a critical flaw in games that require pivoting between opposite directions.

 

In Super Mario Bros, you can do Micheal Jackson's moonwalk by holding L+R. In Atari Ms PAcman, you can glitch through the walls and cheat to pass the stage without clearing the maze by rapidly racking up pellet count. Super Mario All Stars SMB3, pressing all four buttons allows you to speed through levels by continuing to the right at an unnatrually fast pace. I'm sure there are other games which glitch or exploit by pressing opposite directions, but a properly designed joystick or Dpad will NEVER allow opposite directions to be pressed simultaneously.

[spacecadet]

The Gamepad versus joystick debate really is about muscle memory. If you trained on a Dpad, you'll perform better on one. Ditto if you trained on a joystick. I don't believe that platformers are inherently better on a Dpad than on a proper joystick, ditto for playing SHMUPs on a Dpad.

 

Might be true - my first console was the Intellivision, so I got used to moving stuff around with my thumb. (Funnily enough, though, it was the opposite thumb! I'm right-handed and I still use my right thumb for movement on the Intellivision controller, the opposite of a modern controller.) And predictably, I still prefer disc-style d-pads like Sega used up through the Saturn, though I honestly never made the connection to the Intellivision before to explain my preference. It's probably true that it's whatever you grew up with. But even us old-school pre-NES gamers might have grown up with gamepads rather than joysticks. Not all of us had Atari 2600's.

Edited October 31, 2016 by spacecadet

[+5-11under]

You mush on adjacent sides of the plus and it actuates two directions.

 

I find it works okay for UL and DR, but not as well for UR and DL (for right left thumb). I guess for me, might as well attach a stick to the gamepad and make it a joystick (like my old PC joystick could do).

 

edit: left thumb... .

[adamchevy]

I love the U.K. Vectrex gamepad. The buttons are bigger, and the styling looks better to me.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

I find it works okay for UL and DR, but not as well for UR and DL (for right thumb). I guess for me, might as well attach a stick to the gamepad and make it a joystick (like my old PC joystick could do).

You are using your right thumb on a left handed Dpad? That cannot be comfortable.

 

As far as using the left thumb for Dpad use, later games especially in the 16-bit generation and beyond had a lot of buttons so right hand gamer would need the extra dexterity afforded by their dominant hand. This is less critical for controllers (joystick or Dpad based) which use only one or two buttons. I am completely ambidextrous using single button sticks and with my ambidextrous designed stick, I often flip-flop during long play sessions on my Atari.

 

I'm not really sure whether it was Nintendo or the arcade scene that made left hand joysticks standard. Nearly every arcade game early-to-mid 80s and beyond that used two or more action buttons used the left hand joystick layout. These layouts naturally translate to Dpad gaming with the Dpad in the left position. Arcade fighting games in the 90s used six buttons actuated with three fingers (pinkies are borderline useless for gaming despite having use with PC keyboards and playing musical instruments) and the gamer needed all the dexterity they could afford for the hand controlling the buttons, which for 83% of the human population is the right hand.

[+5-11under]

You are using your right thumb on a left handed Dpad? That cannot be comfortable.

 

As far as using the left thumb for Dpad use, later games especially in the 16-bit generation and beyond had a lot of buttons so right hand gamer would need the extra dexterity afforded by their dominant hand. This is less critical for controllers (joystick or Dpad based) which use only one or two buttons. I am completely ambidextrous using single button sticks and with my ambidextrous designed stick, I often flip-flop during long play sessions on my Atari.

 

I'm not really sure whether it was Nintendo or the arcade scene that made left hand joysticks standard. Nearly every arcade game early-to-mid 80s and beyond that used two or more action buttons used the left hand joystick layout. These layouts naturally translate to Dpad gaming with the Dpad in the left position. Arcade fighting games in the 90s used six buttons actuated with three fingers (pinkies are borderline useless for gaming despite having use with PC keyboards and playing musical instruments) and the gamer needed all the dexterity they could afford for the hand controlling the buttons, which for 83% of the human population is the right hand.

 

I meant left thumb... .

 

My best results (I'm right-handed) are still with a joystick in the right hand and a button (or two) on the left.

 

With stock controllers, I can't enjoy NES, SNES, or Genesis. I have the the arcade stick for the SMS, which is okay. I've somewhat got used to the analog control on the N64, but I sometimes still switch hands and hold it with thumb and finger. I guess I learned with Pong, early arcade games, ColecoVision, Atari 2600, and Atari computers.

[mr_me]

....

As far as using the left thumb for Dpad use, later games especially in the 16-bit generation and beyond had a lot of buttons so right hand gamer would need the extra dexterity afforded by their dominant hand. This is less critical for controllers (joystick or Dpad based) which use only one or two buttons. I am completely ambidextrous using single button sticks and with my ambidextrous designed stick, I often flip-flop during long play sessions on my Atari.

 

I'm not really sure whether it was Nintendo or the arcade scene that made left hand joysticks standard. Nearly every arcade game early-to-mid 80s and beyond that used two or more action buttons used the left hand joystick layout. These layouts naturally translate to Dpad gaming with the Dpad in the left position. Arcade fighting games in the 90s used six buttons actuated with three fingers (pinkies are borderline useless for gaming despite having use with PC keyboards and playing musical instruments) and the gamer needed all the dexterity they could afford for the hand controlling the buttons, which for 83% of the human population is the right hand.

My Intellivision controller had 15 buttons and we had a choice with which hand to use. Most Intellivision owners used their less dominant hand on the buttons. Not given a choice you get use to whatever you are given. I think it was the NES that set the standard for left handed controllers. Nintendo made that decision in 1982/83. Arcade games were all over the place with right and left hand controls. Games like Asteroids and Defender had left hand steering but right hand thrust and right hand rapid fire. Atari arcade games had right hand move and left hand fire. Some cabinets had equivalent fire/jump buttons on both sides of a centered joystick. Donkey Kong was backwards as you're doing most of the work with your left hand (unless your left handed), but remember with Donkey Kong they converted existing cabinets which was previously a shooter type game. Also note that the purpose of Arcade games was to generate revenue; and shorter playing times helps generate revenue. So forcing people to use their weaker hand is not a bad idea. To me, I think its better to use your dominant hand for control that can save your life, in most games that is movement. You can learn either way but some people might be better players if they could play the other way,

[+wongojack]

The Mattel handheld games predate game n watch and basically have a dpad. I think the pad is less likely to get broken while being stepped on or pulled off it's base, so becomes a more reliable design choice. Then when gameboy finally came out, it was over for the sticks. Reliable AND (still) portable was too hard to fight.

 

I didn't read the article.

[Andromeda Stardust]

My Intellivision controller had 15 buttons and we had a choice with which hand to use. Most Intellivision owners used their less dominant hand on the buttons. Not given a choice you get use to whatever you are given. I think it was the NES that set the standard for left handed controllers. Nintendo made that decision in 1982/83. Arcade games were all over the place with right and left hand controls. Games like Asteroids and Defender had left hand steering but right hand thrust and right hand rapid fire. Atari arcade games had right hand move and left hand fire. Some cabinets had equivalent fire/jump buttons on both sides of a centered joystick. Donkey Kong was backwards as you're doing most of the work with your left hand (unless your left handed), but remember with Donkey Kong they converted existing cabinets which was previously a shooter type game. Also note that the purpose of Arcade games was to generate revenue; and shorter playing times helps generate revenue. So forcing people to use their weaker hand is not a bad idea. To me, I think its better to use your dominant hand for control that can save your life, in most games that is movement. You can learn either way but some people might be better players if they could play the other way,

Those 15 buttons on the Intellivision controller consisted of a rarely used (besides options and executive functions) phone style array of buttons. Most pre-crash systems had extremely limited resources so used excecutive functions like the 3x4 pad arrays on the 'visions or Reset/Select/Difficulty switches on the Atari. It was extremely difficult to display readable text on screen with the sprite limitations and limited RAM/ROM so these variations and the executive functions were covered in the manual and accompanying overlays.

 

The button arrays used for executive functions and occasionally a spare input if the default action buttons were insufficient. 3rd generation and beyond had the ability to display complex in-game menus which eliminated the need for a large number of executive function buttons.

 

Primary action buttons are very different from the complex grid arrays present on older pre crash era controllers, both electronically and in terms of responsiveness. One big issue with "arrays" is they do not accept multiple inputs very well, but developers knew and understood the limitations of the control devices and worked their software around it accordingly.

 

But I would love to see someone hold a vintage Coleco controller sideways ("Wiimote" style) and try to play Street Fighter II with it through a console-to-USB converter. I don't imagine button combos would work very well.

 

And yes, I understand the generational gap well but have largely overcome it. I grew up with the Nintendo generation despite not owning one as a child, I did play Mario and a few other games at friends' houses when I had the rare opportunity to do so. It was 2011 when I first built my full size NES Arcade controller and introduced myself to arcade style controls. At that point, I had been retro gaming on pads since I got my NES in 2002. And boy, I sucked badly at Super Mario Bros the first time I tried it with a stick, but after a couple weeks practice, I got better. When I got into Atari in 2012, I tried and eventually swore off cheap CX-40 style joysticks because they sucked so bad. I used my 3-button Genny controller almost exclusively when I first got my Atari until I built a real arcade stick for it and never looked back to those carpel tunnel inducing vader sticks.

 

And now that I've built arcade sticks for most all of my pre-3D consoles, I've really taken a liking to arcade controls and have developed somewhat of a joystick fetish when it comes to playing games. I can play NES games such as platformers, SHMUPs, run-n-guns, heck even Tetris just as well on a joystick as I can on a pad.

[mr_me]

Intellivision NBA Basketball had 9 pass buttons, two shoot buttons, and one block button. Tron Deadly Discs had 8 throw buttons and one block button. Neither of these games used the side action buttons. Then there's Bomb Squad where speed on the keypad was crucial. That's a few examples. True no button combos but we had more than enough buttons. To be fair the Intellivision controllers were not suited for rapid fire type games, but the keypad certainly was used for action.

[Nebulon]

Those 15 buttons on the Intellivision controller consisted of a rarely used (besides options and executive functions) phone style array of buttons. Most pre-crash systems had extremely limited resources so used excecutive functions like the 3x4 pad arrays on the 'visions or Reset/Select/Difficulty switches on the Atari. It was extremely difficult to display readable text on screen with the sprite limitations and limited RAM/ROM so these variations and the executive functions were covered in the manual and accompanying overlays.

 

The button arrays used for executive functions and occasionally a spare input if the default action buttons were insufficient. 3rd generation and beyond had the ability to display complex in-game menus which eliminated the need for a large number of executive function buttons.

 

Rarely used?

 

http://atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-9874-0-64431300-1383918488.jpg

[spacecadet]

The Mattel handheld games predate game n watch and basically have a dpad.

 

Yeah but again, those were not popular in Japan. We're talking about when gamepads became standard on home consoles, and it was Nintendo that did it, and they did it because they'd already used it on the Game & Watch. That's not to say they didn't take some inspiration from Mattel, as well as Japanese manufacturers making similar handhelds at around that time. But the Famicom gamepad, which used the cross d-pad that was a Nintendo patent, was taken from the Game & Watch.

 

Also the "d-pads" you're talking about on Mattel handhelds were just independent buttons; you couldn't have diagonal movement and you couldn't roll. The look was similar and maybe Nintendo did copy that. But the functionality is actually very different.

[mr_me]

...

Also the "d-pads" you're talking about on Mattel handhelds were just independent buttons; you couldn't have diagonal movement and you couldn't roll. The look was similar and maybe Nintendo did copy that. But the functionality is actually very different.

They are both based on four switches. They both can be programmed for diagonals by activating two switches. There were other non-game dpads that were more similar to nintendo. The intellivision disc had a central pivot like nintendo and it predates it by a few years. But as you said this discussion is not about who invented the flat gamepad. The intellivision gamepad was first but the nintendo nes gamepad was responsible for setting the standard. For better or worse the nes dominated the US market and that became the standard.

 

Edit:

Sega's first console in the early eighties had joysticks. They quickly changed to game pads. Dont know what the japanese market was like at the time and why they abandoned their joystick.

Edited November 1, 2016 by mr_me

[CatPix]

The intellivision pad have 8 switches, as it touted in the ads to have 16 directional input. And it didn't had a modern pivot, but there was a spring because it could be depresed and used as a button itself, tho I never saw any game using the Pad button. Interestingly the Playstation Dualshock stick would bring back this as the R3 button.

 

So, it's certainly possible to make diagonals on the Intellivision as there is a physical button where on most other consoels you'd do it by pressing two directions. Mattel claimed you could press two switches at the same time, hence the "16 directions" but I'm not sure many game could use it. It was very possible to make 45° diagonals on the Intelli, I have played games that allow it and it's easy.

Rolling is easy to do, too, due to the fact hat the disc can spin, so instead of dragging your thumb over the Dsick to make a roll, you just drag the disc with your thumb to make it. I have no idea if this is remotely effective but it can be done.

 

About the D-pad and Japanese console, the early Master Systems pads had a removable stick on the D-pad, much liek the Atari 7800 game pads.

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by CatPix

[mr_me]

The intellivision disc uses five of its eight switches in combination to produce 16 directions. Some directions activated three switches at the same time. The disc had a smooth surface so you could slide over its central pivot to quickly go in the opposite direction. Its very effective. If you program all 16 directions as a single function then it could be used as a single button. But unlike some thumbsticks the disc is not an extra button itself. It has also been programmed as a 2-way, 4-way, 8-way, and of course 16-way control. Lots of games used 16 rirections. Most of the sports games and even arcade conversions like Commando and BumpNjump used 16 directions effectively.

 

Lots of Intellivision games used the keypad effectively (see http://atariage.com/forums/topic/258513-when-joysticks-got-replaced-with-gamepads/?p=3622654). Many of its original games can't be played without a keypad. Some developers ignored the keypad.

 

The Sega sg-1000 had traditional joysticks that could be used left or right handed ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SG-1000). It came out at about the same time as the nes in japan in 1983. Nintendo was more successfull in japan, maybe because of its library that included Donkey Kong. For whatever reason sega made an updated version in 1984 with nintendo style gamepads. Since the japanese came to dominate the industry over Atari in the 1980s, maybe you can say 1984 was when the gamepad replaced the joystick.

[malducci]

From a phenomenological and embodiment point of view, smaller movements are more closely associated with intimacy and privacy in its precision - compared to larger sweeping motions. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine the experience of smaller movements of gamepad directionals over that of joysticks had some effect in game immersion, simply because of this known experience, though obviously not realized on a conscious level.

[Andromeda Stardust]

From a phenomenological and embodiment point of view, smaller movements are more closely associated with intimacy and privacy in its precision - compared to larger sweeping motions. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine the experience of smaller movements of gamepad directionals over that of joysticks had some effect in game immersion, simply because of this known experience, though obviously not realized on a conscious level.

I actually consider the joystick to be more immersive, but marginally so. I definitely think a cheaply made joystick can be much worse than a Dpad.

 

If the joystick represented your character, it's like you are nudging it on the actual game screen. Also some joysticks allow a decent amount of travel but only a small tilt angle to actuate. A well designed 8-way joystick should actuate the direction at about 50% of full travel. This gives about a 30 degree zone for each diagonal when using a circular gate, and a larger diagonal actuation area for squares.

 

Depending on the game genre, you want larger or smaller diagonal zones. A wider diagonal is good for SHMUPs for instance because your ship actually travels ~41% faster in the diagonals. Slightly narrower diagonals are better for platformers and beat em ups, and certain genres like early arcade and many puzzlers should really use a dedicated 4-way.

 

A Dpad just works across all genres and doesn't need any adjustment to switch from say playing Pacman to playing Gradius. A well designed Dpad like the NES controller allows me to hit diagonals or cardinals every time regardless of Game style. But then so does a Sanwa with octagon gate an 1.0mm oversize actuator installed.

[MaximRecoil]

Why did Ninentdo put the d-pad on the left?

 

Because that's where it belongs. Look at most any arcade machine; the joystick is on the left, the buttons are on the right.

 

As for joysticks vs. gamepads, a joystick is the ultimate form of video game control, but only when it is solidly mounted, such as in the control panel of an arcade machine. For a handheld controller, I much prefer a gamepad. It's not as good as a panel-mounted joystick, but it's better than a handheld joystick.

 

[Flojomojo]

Because that's where it belongs. Look at most any arcade machine; the joystick is on the left, the buttons are on the right.

 

 

Maybe for multi-button fighting games, or head-to-head contests like Joust.

 

Classic-era arcade machines, from when home consoles had joysticks, weren't set up that way. They often placed the single joystick in the center, and duplicated the action buttons on either side for ambidextrous play.

[high voltage]

First D-pad on arcade, Blockade (1976)

 

 

 

Home use:

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by high voltage

[Gentlegamer]

Individual buttons isn't a d-pad.

 

A dpad has a mechanism to "rock" and keep the player from pushing multiple directions, aside from diagonal, at once.

[Andromeda Stardust]

First D-pad on arcade, Blockade (1976)

 

 

 

Home use:

 

 

 

You missed one! My first exposure to Super Mario Bros, and yes, it has 8 worlds!

 

I still have my childhood copy. Those tiny red mushy buttons work surprisingly well!

[mr_me]

Individual buttons isn't a d-pad.

 

A dpad has a mechanism to "rock" and keep the player from pushing multiple directions, aside from diagonal, at once.

But It's poorly designed rocking mechanisms that causes the problem of pushing multiple buttons. I use to play those Mattel handhelds a lot and pushing multiple buttons was never a problem. The nes d-pad is really just four switches like the four button controls. That super mario bros handheld is a good example, it came out six years after the Donkey Kong handheld, which had an NES type d-pad, but they went back to four buttons. Maybe the single pad, as opposed to four pads, is what makes it a d-pad. Probably an improvement that makes it easier to do 8 directions, its an improvement but its really not that different. The intellivision d-pad with 16 directions adds more functionality.

[Osgeld]

ill take the argument that 4 buttons without a object to connect them into a single unit is not a D-pad, least people are not claiming nintendo invented the analog stick anymore

[mr_me]

 

Because that's where it belongs. Look at most any arcade machine; the joystick is on the left, the buttons are on the right.

....

 

Do you have any other reasons because arcade games have an incentive to favor the minority left handed players. They are designed to generate income, so shortening play-times by having controls favor the minority of players helps. See this post http://atariage.com/forums/topic/258513-when-joysticks-got-replaced-with-gamepads/?p=3622210. For example, you could say that the dominant hand, the right hand in most people, being better at most things should do most of the work. And some games have lots of buttons for the right hand eg. defender. And some earlier arcade games only had one-dimensional two way controls for the left hand while the right hand was very busy with thrust, hyperspace, and/or rapid fire or flapping in joust. But then someone else could argue that survival and character movement being the most important part of a game should be controlled by the dominant hand on a multi-directional joystick/pad, with the weaker hand for other functions.