WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) Okay so here is the thing. There is a Jaguar multi cart that has been available for a while now for about $100. This multi cart has 4 4MB rom chips. In the description it says it can store 8 2MB binary images, 4 4MB binary images, 2 8 MB binary images or 1 16MB binary image. As we all know the biggest size a single Jaguar game has been is 4 MB. I was looking at this and thinking where in the world would one get 2 8 MB rom images or even 1 16 MB rom image and then I remembered the struggle of compressing my graphics in my Neon Centipedez project. I know the Jaguar only has 2 MB that can be dedicated to video RAM, however is it possible to fully utilize 16 MB for one game? The N64 only had 4 MB that could be dedicated to video RAM however the smallest rom in those was 8 MB and you could go up to 40 MB (DK64) Has anyone ever attempted to do a Jaguar project that could utilize a higher storage capacity? Is it even possible? If it IS possible perhaps I could use this multi cart for a larger size game allowing less loss of detail and prettier graphics? The production cost of said game would be much higher, but I am not making Neon Centipedez to get rich, I want to make something special for the Jag. I know Skyhammer is supposed to be the most impressive game as far as graphics go, but it is still only 4 MB and there is a lot of slowdown due to the video memory being bogged down. I know the rom would need to be split into 4 parts before even attempting a burn on such a large game, but could the Jag even handle such a thing? would a specific type of code need to be created telling the jag to only pull X MB of graphics at a time, how could such a task be attempted? Any ideas? Also who makes the PCB boards for these? Edited November 17, 2016 by Jeffrey_Bones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Are you sure you understand the difference between a system's RAM and the ROM size of a cart and how data is loaded in RAM from ROM as needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 Are you sure you understand the difference between a system's RAM and the ROM size of a cart and how data is loaded in RAM from ROM as needed? Yes I know what RAM is. What I am saying is that if you have over 10 MB of only graphics data would something special needed to be done in order to access said data.. The system only has 2MB dedicated to video ram so you cant load all 16 MB of game data at a time. I really just want to know if it's possible to create a binary that large or not for the Jag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Its just ram. Its not high speed video ram. General purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 There are numerous things wrong with what you're asking. I get that you know what RAM is, but that's not what I asked. The PSX (Playstation 1 for those who weren't around during its time) has 3MB of total memory. Yet it supports CDs. Do you think games loaded all the graphics/code from the entire CD at once? The Jag supports a maximum of 6MB of ROM size. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXG/MNX Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 You can wait for the sdcsrt for the jaguar and read block so that would be an option second option own design of flashcard using bankswitching on the Atari 8-bit they got many upgrades like that with ram / rom. On a 64kb 8-bit lots of people got 1meg of ram and gb on sd or 128mb flash. The jaguar is the only console I know that has almost no non-standard hardware. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 There are numerous things wrong with what you're asking. I get that you know what RAM is, but that's not what I asked. The PSX (Playstation 1 for those who weren't around during its time) has 3MB of total memory. Yet it supports CDs. Do you think games loaded all the graphics/code from the entire CD at once? The Jag supports a maximum of 6MB of ROM size. Ok yeah you are right i see what you mean now just like the jag cds are 700 mb obviously it doesnt load the whole 700 mb into ram at one time. How do you know it can support a maximum of 6MB? Is that in the consoles original dev kit notes or something? Idk im just asking? Was that atari's official word on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Ok yeah you are right i see what you mean now just like the jag cds are 700 mb obviously it doesnt load the whole 700 mb into ram at one time. How do you know it can support a maximum of 6MB? Is that in the consoles original dev kit notes or something? Idk im just asking? Was that atari's official word on it? https://www.hillsoftware.com/files/atari/jaguar/jag_v8.pdf page 9 for the standard description. Via bank-switching it is possible to address more than the 6MB dedicated to the ROM space but as far as I know no such mechanism was ever standardized (or used) by Atari. As such anything would be custom made and you'll need to devise it specifically for your game (cart and all). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 Its just ram. Its not high speed video ram. General purpose. So it is system ram then? Oops i thought it was VRAM. oh well, now I know. So it has no VRAM then? Ok..... well good to know that. Surely it allocates part of the 2 MB to video though right? IF SO WHAT PERCENTAGE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Ok yeah you are right i see what you mean now just like the jag cds are 700 mb obviously it doesnt load the whole 700 mb into ram at one time. How do you know it can support a maximum of 6MB? Is that in the consoles original dev kit notes or something? Idk im just asking? Was that atari's official word on it? Yes it is in the official developers manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So it is system ram then? Oops i thought it was VRAM. oh well, now I know. So it has no VRAM then? Ok..... well good to know that. Surely it allocates part of the 2 MB to video though right? IF SO WHAT PERCENTAGE? Before trying to write the biggest Jaguar game of all time you may want to understand how the hardware works. This isn't an insult, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Your first Jaguar game is going to push the Jag's limits more than Rayman? Also, if your graphics are so large you can consider packing them and decompressing into RAM. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 The Jaguar doesn't allocate any ram to video memory. You don't need to know this if you are using rb+ as it hides all the complex stuff. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omf Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 that crappy cart is fake, it is simply large roms bank switched into 4 meg or 2 meg chunks with existing games on it see that grey thing on the right, it is a rotary switch to switch between the rom banks pretty much useless as a 16 meg game board unless you have some kind of save value and then have to switch to a different bank to carry on the jaguar does not have enough address lines to enable it to automatically pull data at 16 meg in the wording of the doger example in rb+ 'much useless' 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredifredo Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 The best way is to support Carl Forhan project to emulate JagCD , and after use this new tips for the JagSD 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 The best way is to support Carl Forhan project to emulate JagCD , and after use this new tips for the JagSD Definitely agree with this. Also, even though 6MB is technically possible, no one has done it yet outside of testing scenarios, correct? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 that crappy cart is fake, it is simply large roms bank switched into 4 meg or 2 meg chunks with existing games on it see that grey thing on the right, it is a rotary switch to switch between the rom banks pretty much useless as a 16 meg game board unless you have some kind of save value and then have to switch to a different bank to carry on the jaguar does not have enough address lines to enable it to automatically pull data at 16 meg in the wording of the doger example in rb+ 'much useless' So basically if somebody wanted to try that they would actually have to make 4 separate binaries and power off the console each time then turn the dial to continue the "game". No thats stupid as hell im not doing that. There would also be nothing preventing someone from just skipping the majority of the game and playing the 4th rom first. God the more i think of it the worse it sounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stage_1_Boss Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 The Jaguar doesn't allocate any ram to video memory. You don't need to know this if you are using rb+ as it hides all the complex stuff. Alright, so I followed the link to Create in CJ's sig.. I know I need to understand RaptorBASIC+ to create, which means I need to understand something about BASIC in general, which means I now have a faint idea of how to possibly make a simple calculator program.. give me a few more years, something else might stick as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So basically if somebody wanted to try that they would actually have to make 4 separate binaries and power off the console each time then turn the dial to continue the "game". No thats stupid as hell im not doing that. There would also be nothing preventing someone from just skipping the majority of the game and playing the 4th rom first. God the more i think of it the worse it sounds I think the final outcome of your question can be summed up as this: 1. A 16MB cart rom does not exist and the Jag cant reference 16MB of ROM space directly 2. 6MB of ROM Space is the maximum cart size the Jag can reference directly, however no games have been produced with this cart size 3. It is technically possible to utilize a cart larger than 6Mb, however bankswitching would be required and no one has designed a cart or software to do this. Atari never planned a specification around having bankswitched carts So if you want to go big on a cart you'll have to design/build something on your own which would prob make things cost prohibitive. Just my $0.02 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omf Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 however no games have been produced with this cart size not entirely true, there is a 6 meg Alice Moms Rescue rom that was included with the cd version which was before orion compressed it into 4 meg the only way to play that was on a sunk 2 / 3 that allowed 6 meg. this however was not without problems as the bios area was rewriting on bank 2 of the skunk board, it is apparently fixed now but I haven't tested it myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 Well this thread is dead now since my question has been answered. I will just park this picture right here. I did some crude clay modeling with my wife and son today. Can you guess what i made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 Well this thread is dead now since my question has been answered. I will just park this picture right here. I did some crude clay modeling with my wife and son today. Can you guess what i made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDork3000 Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 The multi-cart is not crappy or fake. I have nothing but great things to say about those multi-carts, right now they are the best thing available until the sd cart is released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAVE 1 GAMES Posted November 18, 2016 Author Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) WHO NEEDS AN NES CLASSIC/MINI?!?!?!?I PRESENT TO YOU THE JAGUAR MINI! Edited November 18, 2016 by Jeffrey_Bones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredifredo Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 Jaguar community lost times and coders due to lack of "low cost / big size roms" ! - Native never finished ... - Orion_ losts a lot of time programming 4MB carts waiting an hypothetical jagCF ( sorry SCPCD but it's true ) - In 1995 Jaguar Rayman starts before PS1 finished after due to lack of space - etc. N64 : big size roms > mythic console Neo Geo : big size roms > mythic console SNES cart biggest size is larger than Jaguar Game Boy Color too... etc. Since too many time the Jaguar is a big 16bit ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omf Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 (edited) The multi-cart is not crappy or fake. I have nothing but great things to say about those multi-carts, right now they are the best thing available until the sd cart is released. you obviously did not see my arduino jaguar wiring demo for ejagfest a few years back then, that gay looking grey wheel is a cheap option and not necessary Edited November 19, 2016 by omf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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