GlowingGhoul Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) First time Apple II user. I'm interested in old RPG's, from 1979-1988 roughly. Which machine is the better choice? Edited November 28, 2016 by GlowingGhoul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 The IIGS has a handful of machine-specific RPGs, but all the greatest 8-bit ones from your specified time period play just fine on a regular Apple II (128K recommended). It would be a significantly more costly investment to put together a working IIGS setup than it would a working IIe/IIc/etc. setup, particularly just to focus on the types of activities you want to focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 I always recommend the IIGS to someone who's coming in cold. It's the last II made, has its own 16-bit specific software library and it's more or less fully backward compatible, so it's going to have the biggest selection of games available for it of any II machine. I also think it's nice to have the keyboard and computer separate; you can fairly easily (and cheaply) replace one or the other if you need to, without needing to disassemble any parts. That said, you won't go wrong with either machine, and no one's going to challenge you if you opt for a IIe. I personally would still look for one of the later IIe's in that case, though, like the IIe Platinum. Again, it doesn't matter *too* much, but as long as you're buying your first machine, I feel like you may as well get the best you can get without breaking the bank. Older Apple II's I feel like are fine if you just happen to already have one, but if buying one from scratch, get a IIe Platinum or better yet a IIGS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowingGhoul Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 OK, I bought an Apple IIe Platinum, CFFA3000, Mockingboard, and a VGA scaler http://a2heaven.com/webshop/index.php?rt=product%2Fproduct&product_id=142 Any other recommendations for an RPG gaming setup? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0op3r Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 OK, I bought an Apple IIe Platinum, CFFA3000, Mockingboard, and a VGA scaler http://a2heaven.com/webshop/index.php?rt=product%2Fproduct&product_id=142 Any other recommendations for an RPG gaming setup? Ha thats almost my exact setup also. I bought the last of the //e (platinum) and loaded it out with all the cool new things that some brilliant minds made available for us. But to someone coming in cold I have to disagree with bill, I think the IIgs is a better entry point (assuming you get a nice one with keyboard and mouse), it already has Sound(no need for a mockingboard), it already has more Ram(most I have seen have at least 512meg). Plays all the ][ - //c stuff, accelerated already(no accelerator card needed, but you might not of wanted that anyway). So basically all the cards you would install except the CFFA 3000 are already onboard. you can get a 130$ BMOW FloppyEmu and play your heart out. Here is my //e Platinum its not completed yet, but its close: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Ha thats almost my exact setup also. I bought the last of the //e (platinum) and loaded it out with all the cool new things that some brilliant minds made available for us. But to someone coming in cold I have to disagree with bill, I think the IIgs is a better entry point (assuming you get a nice one with keyboard and mouse), it already has Sound(no need for a mockingboard), it already has more Ram(most I have seen have at least 512meg). Plays all the ][ - //c stuff, accelerated already(no accelerator card needed, but you might not of wanted that anyway). So basically all the cards you would install except the CFFA 3000 are already onboard. you can get a 130$ BMOW FloppyEmu and play your heart out. Here is my //e Platinum its not completed yet, but its close: I said what I said because the IIGS has a higher level of complexity and arguably not enough IIGS-specific games to really make it worth the extra investment, particularly if all you want to play are Apple II era RPGs. Although great strides have been made in that area, you still really need a IIGS monitor to get the full benefit out of the IIGS (while the regular Apple II can use any composite display), as well as a memory expansion. While the stock memory works fine for Apple II mode, to take full advantage of IIGS software, especially games, you really do need quite a bit of extra memory, which again, adds to the cost. And, as a side note, the Apple IIGS's built-in sound is is no way equivalent to a Mockingboard, although obviously only a handful of games, RPG or otherwise, support Mockingboard sound. As for me, my most used Apple IIs these days are an Apple IIe Platinum and an Apple IIGS, although I have quite a few other models and clones as part of my overall collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0op3r Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) Bill Please take no offense (not that I really think you did), but I paid 80$ for my IIgs ( GS ONLY with 1.5meg card installed and in rough shape). I paid 200$ for a Platinum that had a monitor and 1 floppy(all in pretty good shape). And of course the power supply blew up with about 2 hours on the clock. But after adding all the goodies to the //e I have about 1200$ in it (mind you its really loaded with stuff that you dont need to play games only) I personally dont care about the money it was more about the journey. I can do the GS for so much less, but there are pluses and minus to both. I bought the GS to get some of the new cards from a2heaven, it will be a neat setup but I see the //e getting more use. Edited November 29, 2016 by c0op3r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Bill Please take no offense (not that I really think you did), but I paid 80$ for my IIgs ( GS ONLY with 1.5meg card installed and in rough shape). I paid 200$ for a Platinum that had a monitor and 1 floppy(all in pretty good shape). And of course the power supply blew up with about 2 hours on the clock. But after adding all the goodies to the //e I have about 1200$ in it (mind you its really loaded with stuff that you dont need to play games only) I personally dont care about the money it was more about the journey. I can do the GS for so much less, but there are pluses and minus to both. I bought the GS to get some of the new cards from a2heaven, it will be a neat setup but I see the //e getting more use. You got a good deal on the IIGS (of course sans monitor and drives, I assume, but with keyboard and mouse?), and $1200 into the IIe Platinum seems excessive, but so be it. The fact remains that it's generally quite a bit more expensive to have a properly decked out IIGS than it is a properly decked out IIe Platinum considering the latter needs very few extras to work as intended. And really, to get the most of the IIGS, unfortunately you really do need 4MB these days, particularly if you want to use it with a CFFA card. And ultimately it doesn't matter as he went with a IIe Platinum anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0op3r Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) No the GS was just the GS No keyboard (which really sucks as they are expensive). I plan on getting the A2heaven 8megRam Expansion with ROM boot, the A2Heaven VGA adapter (its about to come out) and a CFFA card for it. Its going to be a long term project as the CFFA is not going to be around for another YEAR. In the mean time I found a Keyboard and Mouse. I have completely torn it down and will do a clean and retrobrite. I also already had an extra 5.25 floppy drive. Now if one pops up for sale, I will grab it. I paid 360$ for the last one off eBay (now you can start to get an idea about the 1200$ in the //e). See to me its not about the money, its about building that Ultimate IIgs or //e that I never had as a kid, Im 50. when i was 14 I had one of these and lusted after a 5 or 10 meg HD. Now I built a //e with 48GB (32GB USB and 16GBCF Card) and a flat screen monitor! Which in 1981/82 I nor anyone else ever thought about a GB. But yes you are right he scored a really nice setup with a CFFA Card, so at this point we are doing what computer nerds do, comparing and debating which is always half the fun, in drag racing we call it "bench racing" Edited November 29, 2016 by c0op3r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowingGhoul Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to my hobbies. I bought the CFFA3000 when I saw one on ebay because I knew it would work on the IIe or IIgs, and it seems like 'the' storage solution for Apple 8-bit. Also, the delay of at least a year for another batch.... I picked up what is essentially an unused, new in box IIe Platinum, mainly because all my classic machines are 1 owner, non-yellowed, and in nice shape. A LOT of the IIe's for sale look like they are in rough condition. I'm also trying to minimize any potential problems with an unfamiliar platform. The VGA scaler because I run all my classic machines through an XRGB-3 to a 23" LCD 4:3 monitor or my projector. So I've got about $1000 invested in this, but if it doesn't work out, I'm sure I can get most of it back. I'm also being offered an Apple color monitor, unused, from the same seller for $125, but I don't see any reason to pick it up. Should I? It's nothing special, just a standard composite display, right (unlike the IIgs which I understand has issues 'looking right' unless you use a GS compatible monitor). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0op3r Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) If you decide you are not keeping it I want to make an offer on the CFFA 3000. I have a working Apple II color monitor I will sell you shipped for 100, but I think they are big heavy crap if you ask me. Install your scaler card and get a cheap 15" LCD monitor and play your games, Ha you can see the heavy Apple Monitor in the background. Edited November 29, 2016 by c0op3r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowingGhoul Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 If you decide you are not keeping it I want to make an offer on the CFFA 3000. I have a working Apple II color monitor I will sell you shipped for 100, but I think they are big heavy crap if you ask me. Install your scaler card and get a cheap 15" LCD monitor and play your If I decide it's not for me, I'll definitely offer you the CFFA3000 first. I've learned from the Atari 8-bit and C64 scene if you want the modern devices for them you have to move quickly, so many things come and then disappear for long periods, or forever. Reminds me I need to sell off my spare new Chameleon 64 an Reloaded boards to pay for this Apple II versions of boxed software, unlike the hardware, seems to carry an insane premium. What's the best source for Apple II disk images? Thanks for all the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0op3r Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 https://archive.org/details/apple_ii_library_4am https://archive.org/details/asimov.apple.archive.2013.03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) I bought the CFFA3000 when I saw one on ebay because I knew it would work on the IIe or IIgs, and it seems like 'the' storage solution for Apple 8-bit. It is probably the best storage solution, but there are others that also work well (like the aforementioned Floppy Emu). That said, it sounds like money's not really a concern for you so in that case, you may as well have a CFFA3000. A LOT of the IIe's for sale look like they are in rough condition. I've noticed that too and have never really understood it. Apple II's seem to get treated a lot worse than other systems of the era. Part of it's that a lot of them were in schools, I think, and that's a big chunk of what you're seeing on the used market. I'm also being offered an Apple color monitor, unused, from the same seller for $125, but I don't see any reason to pick it up. Should I? It's nothing special, just a standard composite display, right (unlike the IIgs which I understand has issues 'looking right' unless you use a GS compatible monitor). Personally I don't think IIe's "look right" without a matching monitor either. If that monitor's really unused, I might go for it, although it being unused is no guarantee it'll work right 30-40 years after its production. But physical damage is a real problem with older monitors and it should be free of that. I've asked here about using an LCD screen for various vintage computers and have actually been warned against it due to lag in the scaler/converter. Edited November 29, 2016 by spacecadet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) I've had good luck using various Apple IIs with regular TVs and monitors, both vintage and modern, although others have had less success due to the wonky NTSC signal it outputs. I happen to have a matching monitor for my IIe Platinum and a few of my other Apple IIs and clones, but I personally wouldn't consider it a deal breaker not having one. As long as the VGA adapter properly replicates color clash, then I would think it would be a good option. Edited November 29, 2016 by BillLoguidice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowingGhoul Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) I've asked here about using an LCD screen for various vintage computers and have actually been warned against it due to lag in the scaler/converter. The XRGB upscales whatever the source resolution is to the native resolution of the LCD, which means virtually no lag for older (4:3) LCD monitors that don't typically do any image processing: The Planar WS231 is the 4:3 23" monitor I use. (1600x1200 native). More importantly, the XRGB-3 does it's upscaling about 4x faster than a modern HDTV or monitor. So instead of, say, an average of 4 to 5 frames of delay typical when a low res image has to be upscaled by the monitor itself, you end up with only about a 1.2 frame delay. That's indistinguishable from a CRT for most people, including me. They're discontinuing them, and the other XRGB models are even better feature wise, but they induce a slightly larger processing delay than the XRGB-3. The whole XRGB line is aimed at gamers using old systems. What is "color clash"? Is it a trick like Atari 8-bit artifacting to get more colors than usually available? Edited November 30, 2016 by GlowingGhoul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Will that scaler card work on a II+? What is the name of the adapter that let you use the SNES controller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0op3r Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 Will that scaler card work on a II+? What is the name of the adapter that let you use the SNES controller? Yes the Scaler card will work on your ][+, they are currently out of stock, be he makes them in small batches, so more will come soon enough. Apple II VGA Scaler http://a2heaven.com/webshop/index.php?rt=product/product&product_id=142 RetroConnector Joystick Interface for Apple IIhttps://www.tindie.com/products/option8/retroconnector-joystick-interface-for-apple-ii/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 What is "color clash"? Is it a trick like Atari 8-bit artifacting to get more colors than usually available? Well, color on the Apple ][ is *entirely* achieved through artifacting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowingGhoul Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Well, color on the Apple ][ is *entirely* achieved through artifacting. I realize that but the VGA Scaler is reading the intended color somewhere and reproducing via a VGA signal without the use of artifacting. What I'm asking is there some other undocumented method that creates even more colors or special effects? Something a "digital reproduction" of the IIe's video output wouldn't replicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I've seen artifacting used in ways normal emulators that use a simple colorcasting model (applepc, mame, modapple) can't quite get right, as well as the IIgs can't do it either, but you pretty much need a full emulation of NTSC to get the colors looking decent. These are few and far between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 The XRGB upscales whatever the source resolution is to the native resolution of the LCD, which means virtually no lag for older (4:3) LCD monitors that don't typically do any image processing: The Planar WS231 is the 4:3 23" monitor I use. (1600x1200 native). More importantly, the XRGB-3 does it's upscaling about 4x faster than a modern HDTV or monitor. So instead of, say, an average of 4 to 5 frames of delay typical when a low res image has to be upscaled by the monitor itself, you end up with only about a 1.2 frame delay. That's indistinguishable from a CRT for most people, including me. They're discontinuing them, and the other XRGB models are even better feature wise, but they induce a slightly larger processing delay than the XRGB-3. The whole XRGB line is aimed at gamers using old systems. What is "color clash"? Is it a trick like Atari 8-bit artifacting to get more colors than usually available? I have an XRGB-mini that I swear by, but obviously it doesn't support VGA input. Does the XRGB-3 support VGA through its RGB input on D IN 2? I'm not clear on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlowingGhoul Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Yes, D2 is VGA capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Yes the Scaler card will work on your ][+, they are currently out of stock, be he makes them in small batches, so more will come soon enough. Apple II VGA Scaler http://a2heaven.com/webshop/index.php?rt=product/product&product_id=142 RetroConnector Joystick Interface for Apple IIhttps://www.tindie.com/products/option8/retroconnector-joystick-interface-for-apple-ii/ Thank you so much!!!! I now know what to do with my Christmas money lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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