Nukey Shay Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 ...which was just a *bit* short-sighted on their part IMO. The Vic's screen memory requirement never (or rather, very very seldom) changes from the stock 22*23 character layout...it should have been mapped at low memory all along. I could understand relocations on the Atari computers, with it's multiple bitmaps and infinite combinations of display lists. Software producers also did not see the need for their programs to check your system specs either...so it was unplug everything if you wanna run something commercial So the user has to keep track of programs written for a stock machine vs. everything else. In a nutshell, the .PDF you are reading is "assuming" you don't have expansion memory. Unplug your memory or alter the program pointers to match an expanded Vic. BTW the "heart" on the first line is the symbol which appears between quotes when you use the clear screen key. It's all coming back to me now. Excuse me, I gotta find a Vic so I can swat it onto the floor and stomp on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 For those of you who do not understand my hatred for the machine, keep in mind that the super slow bitrate of the 1541 disk drive was Vic's fault. So it made C64 users suffer too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2600problems Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 but how do I get the program to run? that's my question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 i've recently discovered the bbc micro. 32k joy, even if it lacks peek,poke commands I find them fascinating, too, although they seem to be quite challenged memory-wise, especially when using hi-res graphics. Their "plug in a ROM chip here and a RAM daughterboard there" architecture with lots of motherboard connectors sticking out under the keyboard is quite opposite to the Atari's "everyone able to use a VCS should be able to use our computers"-oriented design. The built-in line-oriented BASIC editing is inferior to Atari's full screen editor, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2600problems Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 but atari has 2 faults: 1: errors are cryptic 2: you can't move the cursor to fix your mistakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 but atari has 2 faults: 1: errors are cryptic 2: you can't move the cursor to fix your mistakes What's so cryptic about an "Error-143: Serial Bus Data frame checksum error" to a kid who has never used a computer before? I don't understand your number 2 though, I used the cursor keys to edit my errors in Atari BASIC all the time 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Okay. This is my favorite basic story. On the Atari, when you would go up to edit a line, I would hit enter to get back down to the bottom to run it or list it or whatever. I never understood why when I went past READY it gave an error 6. I took years for me to realize that Atari Basic didn't need spaces, so it was interpreting that as READ Y and in most cases, there were no unread data statements, to it gave Error 6 (Out of Data Error)! I laughed for a week every time I thought of that after I figured it out. -Todd 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanny Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I took years for me to realize that Atari Basic didn't need spaces, so it was interpreting that as READ Y and in most cases, there were no unread data statements, to it gave Error 6 (Out of Data Error)! The same happens on Commodore BASIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 The gradient of the curve wasn't equal for all people I don't recall the exact circumstances but I clearly remember watching a "pre-literate" child (i.e. about 4-5 years old) type something like LOAD "*",8,1 on a C64 as if it were stacking building blocks. I'm sure they had an adult teach them. They also might be more literate than you think; there are people that read at 4. Typing "DIR", or "CATALOG" would probably still take less time to learn for 4 or 5 year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 there are people that read at 4. Guilty as charged ! Granted, 4 decades ago this was very rare feat, indeed. These days, however, with the digital exposure, it's becoming much harder to find kids that do not know majority of alphabet (or read) before entering first grade. Lots of preschools will not accept you if your kid does not know how to read at age 5 (or at least half of alphabet), anyway. So, it's kinda requirement these days already. The absolute easiest way - DVD / Netflix with subtitles - and they pick it up passively on a subconscious level, without actually having to work hard to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I find them fascinating, too, although they seem to be quite challenged memory-wise, especially when using hi-res graphics. Their "plug in a ROM chip here and a RAM daughterboard there" architecture with lots of motherboard connectors sticking out under the keyboard is quite opposite to the Atari's "everyone able to use a VCS should be able to use our computers"-oriented design. The built-in line-oriented BASIC editing is inferior to Atari's full screen editor, though. The BBC architecture is sort of a refinement of the Atom's, and they never got away from the idea of ROM enhancements. The Atom takes a similar approach as the original Apple II; you could purchase firmware piecemeal as they came up with it. Line oriented editors typically allow longer lines to be entered than with screen editors. If you are just entering a program for the first time, you shouldn't notice a difference. Line editors are a little faster for revisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 The Atom takes a similar approach as the original Apple II; you could purchase firmware piecemeal as they came up with it. It's not only firmware but all kinds of third party programs that can be plugged into ROM sockets for daily use. Made sense as it was instant loading compared to discs Line oriented editors typically allow longer lines to be entered than with screen editors. If you are just entering a program for the first time, you shouldn't notice a difference. Line editors are a little faster for revisions. My first programming experience after the Atari was in the army, creating a couple hundred lines of dBASE II code on a DOS-like machine using EDLIN. Drove me crazy mostly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Guilty as charged ! Granted, 4 decades ago this was very rare feat, indeed. These days, however, with the digital exposure, it's becoming much harder to find kids that do not know majority of alphabet (or read) before entering first grade. Lots of preschools will not accept you if your kid does not know how to read at age 5 (or at least half of alphabet), anyway. So, it's kinda requirement these days already. The absolute easiest way - DVD / Netflix with subtitles - and they pick it up passively on a subconscious level, without actually having to work hard to learn. Well, I'm not sure this was a rare feat, but my kindergarten teacher punished me because "you couldn't possibly have read it that fast". "It" being a single page of a "see spot, see spot run, run spot run" type of book. ...which was just a *bit* short-sighted on their part IMO. The Vic's screen memory requirement never (or rather, very very seldom) changes from the stock 22*23 character layout...it should have been mapped at low memory all along. I could understand relocations on the Atari computers, with it's multiple bitmaps and infinite combinations of display lists. Software producers also did not see the need for their programs to check your system specs either...so it was unplug everything if you wanna run something commercial So the user has to keep track of programs written for a stock machine vs. everything else. In a nutshell, the .PDF you are reading is "assuming" you don't have expansion memory. Unplug your memory or alter the program pointers to match an expanded Vic. BTW the "heart" on the first line is the symbol which appears between quotes when you use the clear screen key. It's all coming back to me now. Excuse me, I gotta find a Vic so I can swat it onto the floor and stomp on it. I think moving screen RAM can be a disaster for software compatibility, especially in a system with such tight memory constraints. It's a question of what do you move when you expand memory? For those of you who do not understand my hatred for the machine, keep in mind that the super slow bitrate of the 1541 disk drive was Vic's fault. So it made C64 users suffer too. Everything about the VIC 20 says "just get it out the door" was the official policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 It's not only firmware but all kinds of third party programs that can be plugged into ROM sockets for daily use. Made sense as it was instant loading compared to discs That's why so many machines supported ROM carts. My first programming experience after the Atari was in the army, creating a couple hundred lines of dBASE II code on a DOS-like machine using EDLIN. Drove me crazy mostly.... Ultimately, both have been replaced with full screen text editors which are so much better. Size was the main reason they weren't built in to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2600problems Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 i found a vic 20 on letgo.com for $35.00. would it be a good decision to buy it. also, i have an issue with atari800winplus, everytime i choose a graphics mode that is higher than 1, i get a black screen. this is for windows x64 on windows 10. i am using the XL option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 i found a vic 20 on letgo.com for $35.00. would it be a good decision to buy it. also, i have an issue with atari800winplus, everytime i choose a graphics mode that is higher than 1, i get a black screen. this is for windows x64 on windows 10. i am using the XL option Only you can answer that. My opinion.... no it would not be money well spent. You can get a Raspberry Pi or the like for about that. Not retro enough? Spend a bit more and at least get a retro computer which is more worthwhile (preferably something with 64IKiB or better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2600problems Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 i've noticed that peek commands are easier on the atari 800. the c64/128 is a nightmare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Functionally, they are the same...fetch value X from memory location Y. Tho C= lets you add AND as a logical operator to get the status of specific bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2600problems Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 nightmare as in this: "syntax error" 24/7, every time i try to peek. poking is fine but peek is....i wish it had never been made or implemented Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 nightmare as in this: "syntax error" 24/7, every time i try to peek. poking is fine but peek is....i wish it had never been made or implemented So the command is the problem and not the programmer? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 nightmare as in this: "syntax error" 24/7, every time i try to peek. poking is fine but peek is....i wish it had never been made or implemented is it not just X=PEEK(MEMLOC)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 is it not just X=PEEK(MEMLOC)? I would think so, it is in Atari BASIC anyway. I'm assuming you are placing a line number at the start of the statement, and just left it out in your example for brevity? Which BASIC and for which system are you using? You might try: 10 LET X=PEEK(addr) I suppose there might be a BASIC that has a PEEK command (rather than function) and then places the value of the peeked location into a variable that is already reserved by BASIC for its use. For example: 10 PEEK addr Then the BASIC deposits the value into a predetermined variable such as PEEKRES, which you would then use in your program just as you would have used X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Well, I spent two seconds and looked up Commodore BASIC commands on wikipedia. Standard usage - "variable = peek(address)". Where is the difficulty in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Well, I spent two seconds and looked up Commodore BASIC commands on wikipedia. Standard usage - "variable = peek(address)". Where is the difficulty in that? No doubt. It seems the real mystery here is figuring out just what is going on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 but how do I get the program to run? that's my question In VICE xvic, go to Settings -> VIC Settings, select "No expansion memory", OK and then press Ctrl-Alt-R or select Hard Reset from the menu. Then the program listing will work as advertised. I agree that the VIC-20 memory map can be confusing. I think part of the fault lies in that Commodore created a 3K hole between the low 1K and the user 4K. The computer has a total of 5.5K RAM of which the last 0.5K is used as the colour memory. Apparently they were not about to install a full 8.5K RAM in each machine, which had increased the price a bit but also made it far more usable. If the screen matrix always began at 4096, it had isolated the 3K expansion - which didn't sell very much anyway compared the not that much more expensive 8K expansion. Of course if Commodore only had installed 4.5K total RAM which thus had left 2557 bytes free instead of 3581 bytes free, they could've put the screen matrix at 1024 just like the later C64, and start BASIC at 1536. Whether that had made the computer any cheaper, I don't know but the critics would've had even more bad things to say about the computer with even less RAM for the user. On the good part, the following 4K, 12K, 20K expansions would not have changed any memory locations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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