+ZuluGula Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 every single resistor and capacitor needs properly bent to fit in the board properly... A tool like this can make this job easier. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 A tool like this can make this job easier. Have two of them actually - for 1/8 and 1/4 watt resistors. It's still a manual operation for every resistor. Also, I made sure than every gold band faced to the right. The other issue, is there is no tool like this for capacitors. I had to use hand pliers, and do a special bend to make the caps sit flat, without stressing them where the legs meet the body. I'll see if I can find a pic to illustrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 Have two of them actually - for 1/8 and 1/4 watt resistors. It's still a manual operation for every resistor. Also, I made sure than every gold band faced to the right. The other issue, is there is no tool like this for capacitors. I had to use hand pliers, and do a special bend to make the caps sit flat, without stressing them where the legs meet the body. I'll see if I can find a pic to illustrate. Don't really need a tool for the resistors, since the lead spacing used on the board works well by just bending the leads over close to the body by hand. As for the caps, they are now specified as all radial types with the correct lead spacing already formed by the manufacturer. So the only components needing more precise bending would be the two axial inductors and the three diodes. These would benefit by using the lead forming tool, but since we are only talking about five components I eyeball it and use a small pair of needle nose pliers. - Michael 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marty Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Short version - I'd feel I was ripping people off if I charged $150 to assemble and test a board. I’d consider that a bargain price, personally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Yep: that's the lowest number I'd consider, but in GBPs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Oh completely agree!.. that was my point.. I was being conservative I think saying $500 total for the complete project. I think it would be safe to say that is still covering costs etc.. and not really making money.. but its our hobby, we love to be apart of these things. James 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Chinese PCB manufacturers also offer assembling services.....you can ask for a quote..... They don't have to insert the VLSI chips....that saves a bit It's a lot of parts AND through all all the way and they do through-hole stuff by hand there.....I guess the pick and place machines of the 80's have died ....that's gonna ramp up the price even in China I'm sure.... Following that....a redesigned board with all SMD except for the VLSI's ......mmmmmm that would be even smaller .....and manufacturable over there for cheap....but then there is also still the FPGA board coming......sigh....such luxury ! Edited October 19, 2017 by Level42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 What brand and type of solder is recommended those days? I still have some leftover from 15 years ago. Another question. Does it make a difference if I use carbon or metal film resistors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Whatever you use, use leaded. I have 2 big rolls of solder tin (nice and thin) from years ago....somehow I "inherited" one from my former job ....the other I was given by my uncle....and is probably much older....still working fine. Lead is just so much easier to handle "by hand". Yeah maybe it's not so healthy.....I'm not soldering 8 hours a day, every day....so I think the damage is probably not too bad Just MHO. Carbon is probably fine....it's not audio equipment......well except for (Stereo) POKEY 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 Carbon resistors are perfectly fine. No reason for the extra expense on metal film resistors. The metal film type is normally best when a tight tolerance is needed such as +/-1%, which is not the case with this board. I still use good old lead multi-core 60/40 rosin solder. The whole lead issue is kind of silly when it comes to solder, which is actually in a very stable form, even more so than the original lead ore it came from. Now when it comes to leaded gasoline that's a different issue since the particulates go airborne where people can easily breathe it in for miles around the source. But that's just my personal opinion, so please use your own best judgement. - Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 Chinese PCB manufacturers also offer assembling services.....you can ask for a quote..... They don't have to insert the VLSI chips....that saves a bit It's a lot of parts AND through all all the way and they do through-hole stuff by hand there.....I guess the pick and place machines of the 80's have died ....that's gonna ramp up the price even in China I'm sure.... Following that....a redesigned board with all SMD except for the VLSI's ......mmmmmm that would be even smaller .....and manufacturable over there for cheap....but then there is also still the FPGA board coming......sigh....such luxury ! SMD although nice for automated assembly and size reduction, would not have fit this project which was aimed at DIY. Now I know some people will say it's easier to use SMD, but for many of us aging Atarians with poor eyesight that really wouldn't be an option . - Michael 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 SMD although nice for automated assembly and size reduction, would not have fit this project which was aimed at DIY. Now I know some people will say it's easier to use SMD, but for many of us aging Atarians with poor eyesight that really wouldn't be an option . - Michael Indeed. As it is, my 49 year old eyes thanked me profusely the day I splurged on the $8 magnifier headset, complete with LED light. Yes, I look like a moron wearing. But also yes, I do MUCH neater and more precise work with it than I could possibly do even with my bifocal glasses. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) SMD although nice for automated assembly and size reduction, would not have fit this project which was aimed at DIY. Now I know some people will say it's easier to use SMD, but for many of us aging Atarians with poor eyesight that really wouldn't be an option . - Michael I know and I realize that....but if the goal had been production in China SMD would have been a lot cheaper. In Eagle Cad it isn't all that hard to replace the parts from through-hole to SMD in the schematics..... I was just thinking out loud I just spent another 3 hours getting a single 56 pin IC soldered to a board the other night....believe me, I'm not a fan of SMD for home work either... It's probably a combination of tools and needing to get experience though.....I _WILL_ master this art But it wouldn't be bad to have the PCB made in China, get it here, pop in the VLSI's and go as another option.... But I'm looking forward to assembling it too......as I mentioned elsewhere....it's like building a model....much more pride once it's finished and working Edited October 19, 2017 by Level42 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) I know and I realize that....but if the goal had been production in China SMD would have been a lot cheaper. In Eagle Cad it isn't all that hard to replace the parts from through-hole to SMD in the schematics..... I was just thinking out loud Didn't use Eagle for design, so not so easy. I just spent another 3 hours getting a single 56 pin IC soldered to a board the other night....believe me, I'm not a fan of SMD for home work either... It's probably a combination of tools and needing to get experience though.....I _WILL_ master this art But it wouldn't be bad to have the PCB made in China, get it here, pop in the VLSI's and go as another option.... But I'm looking forward to assembling it too......as I mentioned elsewhere....it's like building a model....much more pride once it's finished and working But will they assemble just a few boards at a reasonable price, or does it need to be a large order? So for instance lets say your club buys 5 bare boards and all the parts to make them. Would it be worth the money to have those 5 boards assembled in China? I'm just asking, because I've never looked into small quantity assembly, and was wondering where it makes sense to do that. Anyway this board is what it is... all through-hole. So I'll leave it up to someone else to decide if they want to take it into SMD down the road . BTW, I just uploaded the Manufacturing Files for the XEL-CF-][ here. These are dirt cheap to buy through EasyEDA because they are running a special on 5-10 boards no larger than 100 mm x 100 mm. But if you order these alone the shipping will still cost you $18, however toss them into a 1088XEL order and they'll probably ship for free. - Michael Edited October 19, 2017 by mytekcontrols 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 Updated to Latest BOM (11/2/2017): 1088XEL_BOM_V1_1_11-2-2017.pdf I added a Digi-Key alternate for the Cartridge Connector for people not wanting to buy more than one, and would like to take advantage of the combined order shipping from Digi-Key. This is the former AMP 5530843-2 (now Tyco Connectivity) part that does look a bit more robust than the Chinese version. I also noticed that the change from axial to radial 0.1uf capacitors was extremely tight under Pokey U5, requiring that they be laid over. This concerns me since these parts can vary in height due to being dipped encapsulated parts, and there isn't a lot of room to lay these over. It only affects 6 capacitors (C11, C12, C14, C15, C16, C17). The switch was made to using radial parts because it greatly reduced the amount of lead forming required (there are 30 0.1uf capacitors in use). Another solution would be to add yet another 40 pin precision socket for stacking, but I think the alternate caps would be a far less costly way to go. - Michael 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Could you also post the latest revision of the schematic? I'm planning on redrawing it in Kicad. (BTW it won't fit in the free version of Eagle) After it has been redrawn in a free/open format, its PCB can be routed at will (i.e. 600XL or 800XL form factor, or all SMD, et cetera...) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 Could you also post the latest revision of the schematic? Here you go: 1088XEL_rev1_1_10-1-2017_schema.pdf In the future for all of the latest greatest info on the 1088XEL or it's peripheral support devices be sure to check here. I'm planning on redrawing it in Kicad. (BTW it won't fit in the free version of Eagle) After it has been redrawn in a free/open format, its PCB can be routed at will (i.e. 600XL or 800XL form factor, or all SMD, et cetera...) Wow that's quite a project in itself ivop, and very much appreciated. When completed and proven out, would you mind if I posted the file(s) at my website? I would of course post a credit to you as well. Thinking that this would be good to have in a new section titled 3rd Party 1088XEL Related Projects. - Michael 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Here you go: 1088XEL_rev1_1_10-1-2017_schema.pdf Thanks! Wow that's quite a project in itself ivop, and very much appreciated. When completed and proven out, would you mind if I posted the file(s) at my website? I would of course post a credit to you as well. Thinking that this would be good to have in a new section titled 3rd Party 1088XEL Related Projects. Sure! Currently I'm busy testing the new Wave Blaster port on my MIDI Interface, which works great BTW with the Dream Blaster S2 board. Very nice to hear our little Atari play the Doom soundtrack but after the MIDI Interface and snes2joy projects are finished, I'm going to redraw your schematic in Kicad and will definitely share all the work here at AA. More eyes, the merrier, to check if I didn't make any mistakes! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Could you also post the latest revision of the schematic? I'm planning on redrawing it in Kicad. (BTW it won't fit in the free version of Eagle) After it has been redrawn in a free/open format, its PCB can be routed at will (i.e. 600XL or 800XL form factor, or all SMD, et cetera...) Hi, I am in the process of redrawing this in Eagle 8. Due to the number of pins and size I doubt the free version of Eagle will be able to handle it. But for those who can convert from Eagle to other formats it would be a help. I still need to check connections and footprints, and then fit it to the board. It might be awhile though since I already have a couple irons in the fire to do at the same time so to speak. I hope I can do the board justice, Michael. It's such a pretty board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 I am in the process of redrawing this in Eagle 8. Due to the number of pins and size I doubt the free version of Eagle will be able to handle it. But for those who can convert from Eagle to other formats it would be a help. I still need to check connections and footprints, and then fit it to the board. It might be awhile though since I already have a couple irons in the fire to do at the same time so to speak. I hope I can do the board justice, Michael. It's such a pretty board. Lenore thank you ever so much for the compliment. I tried very hard to make it not only fully functional, but also to look good while doing it. And I figured it was going to be the biggest PCB project that I would ever do, so I wanted it to be right. Yeah I forgot to mention that you were doing a remake in Eagle, which BTW I have been looking over your plans and if you pull it off should be quite the game changer as well. However I wasn't thinking that yours is going to be open source, since you probably are looking to add it to your product line. But if it is, I would love to add it to the new section I want to create on my site that I mentioned earlier. - Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 So, who is going to open the build thread for the diy guys? I have some questions and i don't want to pollute development thread. For example, how to prepare U1MB or is there much difference between $2 and $0.50 40 pin sockets in this application? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 So, who is going to open the build thread for the diy guys? I have some questions and i don't want to pollute development thread. For example, how to prepare U1MB or is there much difference between $2 and $0.50 40 pin sockets in this application? Open the thread, I was a beta builder, and will answer everything as best as I can. I will convert Ultimate 1MB boards for people, $10 + parts (which I think are <$2). But, PLEASE hold off on this, there may be a supply of 1088XEL compatible U1MB boards coming out. And I hope so, because I really don't want to do this. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 So, who is going to open the build thread for the diy guys? I have some questions and i don't want to pollute development thread. For example, how to prepare U1MB or is there much difference between $2 and $0.50 40 pin sockets in this application? Open the thread, I was a beta builder, and will answer everything as best as I can. I support this idea 100%. Truly at this point the BETA team will be some of the most experienced people to help in this aspect. Of course I'll also join in where needed . - Michael 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted October 22, 2017 Author Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) The idea of using a piece of dual wipe socket for the X1 crystal is a bust. It just got horribly loose after several insertions, which I tend to do during testing. So I'm back to using a piece of precision machined pin socket instead (back to square one). This is how I originally started out, and then was getting complaints of the same looseness occurring. The main problem is the fact that the crystal leads are a smaller diameter than the normal IC chip leads, and of course not the same shape either. So I went thru some of my parts drawers and tried several different sockets, out of which some were very tight. So I think the solution is to perhaps pay a bit more and get a very good quality machined pin SIP socket (the Mill-Max brand comes to mind). I'll have to order up some samples and see what works best. Of course if you never intend to switch video modes just solder the crystal in place. BTW, that is a PAL crystal that can be gotten from BEST Electronics (part number: C016112), for NTSC the Digi-Key part is already on the BOM. Edit: Opps I see I forgot to move the jumper over to the PAL position. Well as long as I'm talking about this, that jumper is used to select the 'No-Color' polarity for the color switch that is under control of the V-Gate chip (the one with the V1.1 label). So when the color is gated off, it needs to be referenced to either GND or +5V to represent an OFF or No-Color output dependent upon if the video mode is PAL or NTSC. Having the jumper in the wrong position does no harm, other than causing some vertical colored bars to appear on the left and right side. The other jumper marked 'OSC' needs to normally be closed (shorted), with the only exception being when a VBXE is installed in the system, then it would be open and the VBXE would have it's oscillator output tied to pin 2 of that same header. - Michael Edited October 22, 2017 by mytekcontrols 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariNerd Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Maybe, with some of the proposed rework in SMD, some extra space can be bodged out to include both variants on-board, being user switchable - or something like was being bantered about / explored in this thread, may one day be implemented. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/269457-i-want-to-learn-antic-gtia/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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