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Gauntlet

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#1 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2017 3:00 PM

Just posted also on the http://atariage.com/...-3#entry3686287 topic:

Always thought that Gauntlet one more colour in Antic4 charmode would make the difference in at least the enemys be different coloured and distinctable from the walls. When Lost Dragon revival that Atari User magazine where they said the charsets were done on A8 I'm wondering if the playing area gfxs and monsters has 128chars and it could be.
Does anyone ever inspected it?
Monsters move in char steps and have 4 direction and are how many? And objects, bonus, exit, walls,... aren't all that much, I think.
It would be great if anyone could change it to charmode. Anyone?

P.s.- In the colours of the playing area wich dark, medium and light are PF0/PF1/PF2?
Can someone see?
Thanks.


Edited by José Pereira, Thu Feb 2, 2017 3:06 PM.


#2 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2017 3:17 PM

Assuming "all" capabilities, You see 32 Bytes mode plus the huge scoreboard.

As I wrote in other Threads, the Atari would need a "unique" version, taking advantage of the native features.
Doing the game fullscreen in 4x4 mode with 9 colours and to use the PMg for an overlay score indicator would have solved all problems.


Well, actually I mostly propose lower resolution solution, but I also have problems with "Thrust" that uses a lower resolution, but would have even be possible in hires with colours....

#3 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2017 3:35 PM

If you allow to have the enemies "single colour" , how about Graphics 1 ?

All relevant elements could be created with PMg and you get clean 4 separated colours . One for the walls, one for ghost.... and so on.
In any case, the animations of the moving objects need the upgrades.

#4 kiwilove OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2017 4:57 PM

Well, actually I mostly propose lower resolution solution, but I also have problems with "Thrust" that uses a lower resolution, but would have even be possible in hires with colours....

 

Yes - Thrust was a major disappointment with how it's graphics looked.

I think it could have looked way better - if the same attention to detail present in all it's other aspects - was also present with it's graphics - it would have been a first class effort, instead of second class.  The same with other games - made the project looked much better.

 

Harvey



#5 Tezz OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2017 5:17 PM

I've been meaning to get back onto Thrust, it's been on the back burner for several years, I think it was as far back as 2009 that I disassembled the original Electron version to create a better A8 release. It will need to be rewritten for the A8 so quite a bit of work but worthwhile.



#6 kiwilove OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2017 5:34 PM

I've been meaning to get back onto Thrust, it's been on the back burner for several years, I think it was as far back as 2009 that I disassembled the original Electron version to create a better A8 release. It will need to be rewritten for the A8 so quite a bit of work but worthwhile.

 

I think it could do with a trainer option (kid's option) present - so that those with less patience can be enticed to have a good go with this incredible game.

And it would be good to see a version that offers new and different levels?  And if you can add enhancements (different add ons?)  That would be nice too.

 

These later options could be applied to other fond Atari classics as well?

 

Harvey



#7 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 1:58 AM

I still wonder , if people get what I'm writing ;)

In Thrust, you have a low amount of moving objects, just some lines. That means, there is not much CPU needed.
In Gauntlet, you have "100" moving objects, that need attention to any available CPU tick.

So, if people would search for a perfect compromise, "many objects" should be based on less Data, and less similar objects could be done , using PMg multiplexed and some flicker wouldn't disturb the view much.

So, possibly, "Graphics 2" would do even better, as you get the double of free chars for different monsters and moving directions. Some Charset rotation will give easy animations with low CPU , overlayed by the multiplexed PMg ... voilá

#8 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 5:48 AM

I still wonder , if people get what I'm writing ;)

In Thrust, you have a low amount of moving objects, just some lines. That means, there is not much CPU needed.
In Gauntlet, you have "100" moving objects, that need attention to any available CPU tick.

So, if people would search for a perfect compromise, "many objects" should be based on less Data, and less similar objects could be done , using PMg multiplexed and some flicker wouldn't disturb the view much.

So, possibly, "Graphics 2" would do even better, as you get the double of free chars for different monsters and moving directions. Some Charset rotation will give easy animations with low CPU , overlayed by the multiplexed PMg ... voilá

On Gauntlet the 2guys are 2Players in multicolour mode and their fires that are each 2Missiles in 5th Player Mode geting PF3 colour and all enemys aren't really soft sprites. These move in charsteps with just replacing their frames. They're like you have a letter 'A' and replaced it by a 'B'.

 

And in 32Bytes wide without any soft sprite using isn't all that hard to...

 

And by the way, do we have now a start of "Best do it in Gr.2"? And where's GR.7?

At least the coherence is that the two are double line resolution ;).

Best would be the two in presence. Mode 2+7...

:grin:



#9 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 6:18 AM

O.K. lets show it...

I am using exactly same PFs bit-pairs and nothing changing other than the in.game be in ANTIC4 charmode.

 

-> PICTURE SCREEN:

The title screen picture is already in charmode (like, I think, it was Tezz some time ago that confirmed it in here).

PF0/PF1 are dark and medium red luminances and light/pink is PF2 all screen high and PF3 also the same in some scanlines and then is the DLIs rainbow on the logo.

In some scanlines the PF2 can be other than pink that makes possible to have other colour(s) (here the yellow and orange) on the weapons, hair,... And ther's still open the possibility to add PMGs and coloured it more like we do in G2F, RastaConverter,..:

Title screen picture.png

 

-> CREDITS AND CONTROLS SCREENS:

Like I always do and think that is better is to have dark luminance on titles and then underneath line in lighter (normally credits names in white) and also because keys are rectangular forms then they should be in inverse mode and distinct to the other texts. On the Controls screen I also have 2Players left and other 2 on the right in the U.S.Gold logo and white are again 2 at left and 2 at the right Missiles in 5th Player mode:

Credits.png Controls.png

 

-> PLAYERS CHOOSE SCREEN:

Like in the Gauntlet picture here it can also be better/more colours in charmode and PF2&PF3 with some, not much DLIs:

Number of players in charmode.png

 

-> IN-GAME SCREENS:

The game have PF0/PF1 as dark and light luminances and PF2 is the medium luminance. PF3 is on the fires of our guys that are Missiles in 5th Player mode.

Beeing the game in GR.15 bitmap and if we turn it into GR.12 charmode instead to get an aditional color?

First I wanna say that in case of PF1 and in most of these 1colour and 3luminances of it I most of the times prefer that the lightest be white. This way the PF3 could be the colour we used on the enemys.

In ghosts it can be lightest gray (0C), in sorcerers a lilac/purple (colour 5 or 6), brown (colour1 or F) for the monsters and the fat guys a pale green (E8) or (EA),...

The only constraint is that now our guys fires have to be lightest gray/... but that isn't a problem/nor look worse, I think.

For the bonus (here where you'll see 2screens at the same) we can have them blinking, like one frame with PF2 and the other with PF3.

Also in some level that are in grays I probably suggest that with all the more colours we have on A8 palette they could be other as we already have white and sometimes (when there are ghosts) a light gray.

But no more 'blah, blah, blah!...', here are some in-game if in charmode (Levels 001->007):

Level1 in charmode.PNG

Level2 in charmode frame0.PNG Level2 in charmode frame1.PNG

Level3 in charmode frame0.PNG Level3 in charmode frame1.PNG

Level4 in charmode frame0.PNG Level4 in charmode frame1.PNG

Level5 in charmode.PNG Level6 in charmode.PNG

Level6 in charmode.PNG

Level7 in charmode frame0.PNG Level7 in charmode frame1.PNG

 

Yes, this just one more makes all the difference, doesn't it? ;)...

:P

 

:thumbsup:


Edited by José Pereira, Fri Feb 3, 2017 6:26 AM.


#10 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 6:45 AM

And I'm still with the opinion that the in-game playing area could had be done in Antic4 charmode.

The C64 is in charmode and their charset has 256chars when ours has only 128chars. If the charsets were done on A8 where's the reason we got GR.15 bitmap mode? I think the answer is in a wrong decision and A8 didn't get the right (the usual  :mad: ) treatment as the others.

 

There wasn't no need to... And why?

There isn't a need for any 'fancy tricks' nor multiple/cmplicated charsets. The problem is for the enemys (normal ones: ghost, sorcerer, fat guy and monster) each use 4chars x number of frames (moving/different directions). If, lets say that each has 8frames x 4chars = 32chars each that the 4 already takes ours 128chars charset.

 

But if we call each enemys to the current level (ghots frames then the same chars are used on the next level where are sorcerers,...) this would get us only 32chars (if they vare 8frames...). 

This way we would had 96chars free and I'm almost sure that this is enough for the simple ground design, walls, exit, bonus, teletransport, enemys generators,...

 

If C64 had also something like ours 128chars limit I'm sure they would do exactly this to have their colourmap, this is the true, sad but it is. Problem is we never get the attention we deserved  :( .

:twisted:



#11 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 7:37 AM

Isn't the problem with your plan Jose, that most of the time in Gauntlet, once you get past the opening levels, there are several different enemies on screen at once, overlapping horizontally and vertically - so one more color available would not really help there...

 

Perhaps a better approach would be to use the color to change the floor to pop the enemies off it more or the walls so they stand out more strongly?

 

sTeVE


Edited by Jetboot Jack, Fri Feb 3, 2017 7:41 AM.


#12 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 7:48 AM

Yes, mistaked because there can be more than one type of enemys at the same level but then it still can be and have all them with the same PF3 colour.

And No the enemys doesn't seem to ever overlap eachother and always move in charsteps so it still makes sense my proposal.

:)

:thumbsup:



#13 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 8:29 AM

And by the way, do we have now a start of "Best do it in Gr.2"? And where's GR.7?
At least the coherence is that the two are double line resolution ;).
Best would be the two in presence. Mode 2+7...
:grin:


I know, you'll never get it. As I will never get it, how you manage to get coders things done.
While your projects never solve miracles, you'll also never reach miracles. You cannot pull stuff out of the A8 that the machine doesn't have.
The gameplay of Gauntlet is "stiff" enough. To use charmode, will make the game even more stiff. A solution could be to reduce the visuable enemies.
Btw: How's Prince of Persia ;) ?

#14 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 8:54 AM

PoP please contact the coder...

#15 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 9:00 AM

PoP please contact the coder...


We will never see the game running, as you proposed. That's the point.

#16 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 9:15 AM

No. The point is that the coder had problems, no time and had to do some decisions on his life.
And on PoP Yes what I proposed was accepted by him and other(s) person(s) that joined the project. And it maybe went to more and unexpected (maybe A8 will have a nicer and totally different looking than the others...) that when it is it will be and you'll see it ;)...
If he ends is current project then Prince of Persia is the following and is not because of technical problems but with people's own life outside A8.
Coders code when have time to do it and you talk all the time because you have time. I wish coders have your available time.
:grin:
:thumbsup:
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#17 Jetboot Jack OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 9:24 AM

Yes, mistaked because there can be more than one type of enemys at the same level but then it still can be and have all them with the same PF3 colour.

And No the enemys doesn't seem to ever overlap eachother and always move in charsteps so it still makes sense my proposal.

:)

:thumbsup:

 

 

What I mean is you are showing white ghosts and brown grunts when in reality if they are on screen they would be the same color - so white grunts or brown ghosts - which would look little better than the current version IMHO, your mockups do not represent the actual visuals of the game - not wether enemies overlap or not (which they don't I know)...

 

sTeVE



#18 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:24 AM

personally I don't know why bitmap mode was used on a8... as the enemies don't even move in pixel res but in char or half char steps... for that the game moves a lot data around....

 

have you checked the charset of the c64 version btw? does it use all 256?



#19 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:39 AM

Yes that I corrected at the begining after your post that make me watch some YouTube videos.
When is one type of enemys we could have its main colour whatever we want but if more than one maybe the better solution is to have that colour the one that makes them more seen/different than the walls and grounds gfxs (if, for example, is a grays level then maybe better enemys main colour be brown).
What more than one type of enemys may turn not so possible charmode is that they will increase the number of chars they use. I'll see C64 charset(s) this night and some videos to see how's the enemys: number of frames and how many different on the same level, how much bonus, walls,...
It's not all that important other than just get finally an answer that I never got and is possible today with emulators, internet and these forums discussions: "Would it had been possible that Gauntlet used charmode to have a 5th colour on the gfxs?".
:)

#20 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:48 AM

its a wonder that it runs at decent speed anyway on a8... i mean... charmode would be 4 STAs to set an enemy while in bitmap mode at 3*8 or 2*8 needed... and when you open gates... all clearing needs to be done etc etc etc... no clue really... maybe they took not the c64 version but another one (apple? ST?) where they made their design decisions...

 

and collision checks are easier too... so maybe like in Gremlins or (in Beyond Evil ;=)) there is a "char screen" for checking enemies, loot, shots, doors, keys etc... but if you anyway have a char based screen "under the hood" wtf then ;)

 

and while scrolling (ah... haven't checked the display list etc though) you need to paste 160 scanlines (?) on the side with data? and scrolling up/down needs to shuffle additional 160x entries in display list???? 

 

well... I really can not understand why... 


Edited by Heaven/TQA, Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:51 AM.


#21 José Pereira OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:50 AM

personally I don't know why bitmap mode was used on a8... as the enemies don't even move in pixel res but in char or half char steps... for that the game moves a lot data around....
02
have you checked the charset of the c64 version btw? does it use all 256?

Welcome to same team as me. That is what I have in mind and questioning all these years and the reason that from time to time I talk here about Gauntlet...

EDITED: Now that more than 30years have passed will it finally come an answer?
And maybe someone to change if isn't asking for too much...
:grin:

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Feb 3, 2017 11:01 AM.


#22 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:52 AM

have you checked the charset of the c64 version btw? does it use all 256?


i haven't checked to see what's going on exactly, but there are three character sets at $4800, $5000 and $5800 which at least appear to either be full or as close as makes no odds. i assume the game ping pongs between the three to get animation on some objects.

#23 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:54 AM

i haven't checked to see what's going on exactly, but there are three character sets at $4800, $5000 and $5800 which at least appear to either be full or as close as makes no odds. i assume the game ping pongs between the three to get animation on some objects.

likely for the animation... (plus panel?)



#24 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 10:56 AM

You can have 5 and more different enemies close. All 5 enemies move in 8 directions, 4 chars per moving object... 5x4x8 = 160 chars. No huts , no bone/nests , no walls , no ground drawn.

So you COULD do the game in Charactermode, but you could forget to move the objects by just moving the chars. You had to handle the Character mode like non linear graphics, plus DLIs, to change the character content...

#25 TMR OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2017 11:09 AM

likely for the animation... (plus panel?)


There's a different charset for the status bar at $6000 by the look of it, what i've been prodding around at is purely in-game elements. i haven't tried working out the object colours but the $4800 character set looks like this:

gauntlet_dump.png





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