GroovyBee Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 You could argue that a refund is not fair compensation for not delivering a game. Everyone know that a quality Intellivision homebrew cartridge with low production numbers is worth many times more than the $40 or whatever that initial offer was. Nope! In a sale of goods the buyer is legally entitled to the item or a refund. The refund does not need to take into account market inflation rates. On an unrelated note programmers have to be careful entering into a service agreement. In some cases not delivering could cost a programmer the difference in the cost of hiring a second programmer to do what the first programmer didn't. This was not a service agreement but a sale of goods. If it was a service agreement then the price of the cart would have been considerably higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignorama Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) For your information: This discussion about potential trial courts is senseless. I NEVER had any idea of going to law. I bought games, I wanted games. Thats all and that is the reason I am not satisfied with a refund. I don't care if I could sue GB or not, stuff like that never crossed my mind. I also don't care about potential value increases, because I do not sell my homebrews, I buy them actually to play them, which is the reason I only buy one copy per game. The history is much more complicated than these smart guys like Dz, Crew and so on pretend. I also advertised for the games on another board and at least one user bought Rocketeer. Thats also something I really dislike, because I feel kind of responsible for that too. But, and thats the point which always is forgotten in this flame-war: I NEVER was pissed about delays, I was pissed about the lack of information. You can read the whole story and how it developed here: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/209220-new-homebrew-called-rocketeer/page-64?hl=%2Brocketeer&do=findComment&comment=3596544 Since some guys blame ME make it easy and just scroll through the pages and read just my posts. You will see that I asked several times politely and never got a answer since 2014, which changed my tone and really pissed me off. Its not that the game is not released yet, even if its a joke for me, its GBs behaviour towards his customers. Its just disrepectful and that has nothing to do with "beeing his boss", I never wanted to be his boss, I just wanted him to inform us, at least to show that this projects are not forgotten, which seems to be the truth to be honest. What really upset me was 2014. In that year GB said "this year" and confirmed it later. In December I dared to grab that topic out of the Limbus, because it was pretty obvious that the game wont come 2014 anymore. Sorry, but if you announce and confirm a date, its your damn duty to say at least "sorry, I cant manage this". That would have been okay for me, just a bit more communication, I never wanted anything else. I just can't deal with this self-righteous behavior and I really do not care if people, who do not even have anything to do with my deal with GB, give me smart advices. Rev bought more games, so he has more right to be upset? The Fuck And this is my final statement in this topic, because I am done with it and I am not even angry anymore, I am more dissapointed and not just of GB Edited February 14, 2017 by Ignorama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 You could argue that a refund is not fair compensation for not delivering a game. You could, and you'd lose. As GroovyBee stated, it's a sale of goods, not a service agreement. Also, any increase in value of the game as a collectible would only come into play if the game was actually released into the market and valued accordingly, and Ignorama just didn't get his copy, therefore "losing out" of any potential earnings. However, the game was never released, it remains vapourware until the day it comes out, and so it has no collectible value. About the only case you may have would be if GroovyBee announced the games prematurely in an attempt to materially influence the market, negatively impacting on competitor's sales by exerting monopoly power in a strained but well defined market. Good luck bringing anti-trust claims against this. -dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Nope! In a sale of goods the buyer is legally entitled to the item or a refund. The refund does not need to take into account market inflation rates. Yes, it would not be fair to be responsible for unforeseeable market fluctuations. This was not a service agreement but a sale of goods. If it was a service agreement then the price of the cart would have been considerably higher. Yes, that is why I said it is unrelated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-crew Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Does a Fool Ever Learn ? They keep doing the same thing with the same results ,says the smart fools. Lol ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-crew Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L42HYYyHjXk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Spear Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Oh no! Well, I hope that you can get motivated later this year to maybe get one more. I've pretty much stopped collecting for Intellivision for over a year now. Last week, I asked Groovy Bee for a refund. He was prompt and courteous in his response, and I got my refund right away. Easy peasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I am glad I got my refund and cashed out of this thread two and a half years ago! Although, controversy wise this a great place to be! There are darker parts to this story, though if I mention them the Wolves will tear me apart.....gotta go now, run, run, running!!!>>>>>>>>>>Away!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I am glad I got my refund and cashed out of this thread two and a half years ago! And yet you're still in this thread. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) And yet you're still in this thread. You are still in this thread and forum as well, after 4 years, I am glad to see that! We have been internet chat buddies for a long time now, I love this stuff! Keep up the great posting, best to all. Wolfy Edited February 15, 2017 by wolfy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-crew Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Refund or wait ,.. its really the only choices there are .. All this Bitching and Bashing really doesn't accomplish anything.. it just divides . "let go of the Peanut" a Wiseman once said. lol oh yeah, its entertainment for some. Especially for those Smart ones... lol kidding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Refund or wait ,.. its really the only choices there are .. All this Bitching and Bashing really doesn't accomplish anything.. it just divides . "let go of the Peanut" a Wiseman once said. lol oh yeah, its entertainment for some. Especially for those Smart ones... lol kidding Thank you for clearing this up for all of us! Have fun guys, play,collect and game on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-crew Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Have fun guys, play,collect and game on! Well said Wolfy !!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utopia Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I am glad I got my refund and cashed out of this thread two and a half years ago! There are darker parts to this story, though if I mention them the Wolves will tear me apart..... Interesting...I always thought it was rather straight forward. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I do hope the bee will get the games done. I already paid for Rocketeer, and read the entire thread about the game coming with a box while groovybee denies it was pretty fun to read. My first experience playing Jetpac was on the Donkey Kong 64 cartridge as an unlockable. Once that game got unlocked, I ignored the main game and played that game for hours trying to see what the next enemies looks like and the next rocket image you could get after completing 4 rounds. My friend and I played that for hours back in the day. Unfortunately the save file got wiped and the game was no longer accessible until I slog through the game to get it unlock again. Supposedly it is suppose to be EEPROM save and not battery save. /strug No I'm not going to download Spectrum emulator to play it again. I'm still going to wait patiently for groovybee to get into the groove and finish off his games. I'm sure he'll refund everyone if he can't do it anymore. Anyway, I have many other things to worry about. I'll be extremely happy to play this once again it is finish and released. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I am glad I got my refund and cashed out of this thread two and a half years ago! Although, controversy wise this a great place to be! And yet you're still in this thread. And so am I and I didn't pre-order these games. Thought it was ****ed up to be asking money for games that haven't even been programmed. So I'm in on this thread following this train wreck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 And so am I and I didn't pre-order these games. Thought it was ****ed up to be asking money for games that haven't even been programmed. So I'm in on this thread following this train wreck. My comment was regarding wolfy's statement that he "cashed out of this thread" but he's still here. By the way, the games had been programmed, and they were pretty much advanced by the time money was asked. I beta-tested them and can tell you that they were pretty solid, although they were missing some polish. Then life got in the way, it happens. If you read my own development thread for Christmas Carol, I was promising the release "next month" for almost two whole years. I never lied, I just severely underestimated the effort that last bit of polish would take -- especially within the confines of the rest of my life goings-on. Also, perhaps you don't remember this, but asking for money prior to release was sort of standard practice back then. I didn't ask for money upfront for my own game back then because we were planning a big splashy release with online orders; but I can tell you that it wouldn't have been rare had I asked for pre-order purchases at that time. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't. Since this fiasco, nobody has done pre-orders again because we've learned from it as a community -- and that's a good thing; but to ignore the context of the times is disingenuous. -dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 By the way, the games had been programmed, and they were pretty much advanced by the time money was asked. I beta-tested them and can tell you that they were pretty solid, although they were missing some polish. Seems pretty simple to me to announce the pre-order when the game has been fully tested and ready to be put on cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Seems pretty simple to me to announce the pre-order when the game has been fully tested and ready to be put on cart. Sure, and that's what everyone does today. However, back then it was common to ask for pre-orders prior to manufacture in order to fund the production of boards and collateral -- even when the game was "almost done," with the expectation that it would be completed by the time all materials were ready for production. It may have been misguided or fraught with risk, but it was very reasonable and others did it as well. Now we know better, and this was the hair that broke the camel's back. dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 back then it was common to ask for pre-orders prior to manufacture in order to fund the production of boards and collateral -- even when the game was "almost done," with the expectation that it would be completed by the time all materials were ready for production. I have no problems whatsoever with pre-orders to front the costs of making the carts, boxes, manuals etc. I do have a problem with asking for pre-orders when a game isn't 100% complete and thoroughly tested. Just stating that for the record. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I have no problems whatsoever with pre-orders to front the costs of making the carts, boxes, manuals etc. I do have a problem with asking for pre-orders when a game isn't 100% complete and thoroughly tested. Just stating that for the record. That's all well and good, but it's done and it hasn't happened again. You can cry over spilt milk all you want (join the chorus ) but it won't change the fact that we as a community have moved on from the practice. It will also not get you the games faster, nor get you much of anything -- unless your intention is to stoke the fires of discord once again. You can huff and puff about it, get a refund, or wait patiently like the rest of us. Anything else is just adding more drama than is warranted. dZ. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catsfolly Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 While I was preparing games for the booth at PRGE both Rocketeer and Mars Minis were worked on (although not as much as I would have liked). There will be a more informative update later next week, with some interesting news. Its nearly 4 years now . Yep! I know its not acceptable, but real life just got in the way. As always, if anybody wants a refund just drop me a PM. Hey, What's up with our "informative update with interesting news"? It's Wednesday already! I have invested a lot of time in following this topic, and so far I have not found much that is either informative or interesting. It all seems like mostly a re-hash of past discussions... Maybe you shouldn't pre-announce interesting news before the news is written and tested and ready to announce? Can I get a refund of the time I spent reading this topic? (I guess I just hate waiting for things...) Catsfolly 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy62 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectorGamer Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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