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Questions about Modernizing and using my Mac LCIII


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#1 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:41 PM

Hello,
 
I have been asking questions in some other threads as they come up, but I thought it would make sense to start my own thread.  I have a Mac LCIII that I would like to start using and have been running into questions every step of the way and I wanted to list my current comments and questions here.  Anyone who can help with any of these questions would be much appreciated.
 
1) I have a Floppy Emu that is capable of emulating the internal 3.5" drive.  This is great if whatever I download is 1.44MB or less.  How can I put a larger file onto multiple floppy disk images, and then extract them on the Mac and reconstruct the larger file?
 
2) I have a third party CDROM that does not show up at all.  Is there any way to scan the SCSI bus to see if it is even recognizing it?  I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to get drivers to work if it is not even working at the hardware level.  Also, for the drivers, I just extract them to the Extensions folder, and if it works, I will have a CD drive on the desktop even if no CD is inserted, correct?  If I need a good CD inserted before it shows up, that is another issue because I am not even sure if I can use 700MB CD's in the drive, so I won't know if the CDROM icon is missing because the CD is bad or because the drive is bad.  Any help would be appreciated.
 
3) I have been playing with Basilisk II for the first time and tried King's Quest V and it worked up until the title screen then got stuck with an hourglass.  Is Basilisk II fairly buggy or does it always work, and the King's Quest V problem is more likely a software corruption or installation issue?
 
4) When using HFV Explorer, sometimes when I download programs, it doesn't let me copy them to the emulated disk. The downloaded file doesn't have a proper header or whatever to tell it what kind of program it is.  With Ciderpress, I can copy it to the disk, and then edit the attributes, but this usually doesn't work.  I noticed with pre-made disk images there are '+' symbols after the file type such as APPL+, but when I manually tell Ciderpress to make it an APPL, it doesn't have the '+' after it, and the program gives an error when I try to run it on the Mac.  Any suggestions on how best to deal with these issues?  I was thinking of downloading files from within Basilisk II to see if they retain their file attributes, but I don't even know how to do that.
 
5) Is there a way to use the serial port on the Mac with a null modem cable to share files and/or surf the internet used in conjunction with a PC, sort of like ADTPro and/or A2Cloud?  I was thinking about this and perhaps Localtalk could be set up between Basilisk II and the Mac.  I know nothing about file sharing with Localtalk or if there are other ways to accomplish this directly like with ADTPro on the Apple II.  I am assuming there is a way to download files from the internet inside of Basilisk II, but I haven't gotten that far.  Also, is there a way to set up a virtual hard drive via the serial port so you can install programs and use them through the serial port (this would be super slow I know)?
 
6) Is anyone familiar with the SCSI to SD adapter found here: http://www.codesrc.c...p?title=SCSI2SD
This is pretty slick and emulates up to four SCSI hard drives on an SD card.  The new V6 version allows you to access the files in the virtual hard drive images via USB also, which might solve the issues for #5.  I don't want to purchase this until I am sure I want to continue my efforts with the LC III, so I would rather solve the above issues with my pathetic 80 MB SCSI hard drive before buying this.  
 
7) How do you extract .hqx files when running System 7.1?  What program/version(s) works with hqx and this version of the OS?  I don't have the space to upgrade the OS on the 80MB drive.
 
Thanks,
Mike
 


#2 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:04 AM

I will try to answer as much as I can.  At one time I had explored everything that you are currently questioning.

 

I will do the easy ones first, but for the most part most of your hindrance is due to the LC III.  A 4 digit Mac has substantially more capability.

 

Everything from running the newer Mac OSes (from 8.5 to 9.22) to the ability to install a usb1.1 card, to accelerator cards and ethernet cards.

 

7) A newer version of StuffIt can handle .hqx files.  StuffIt 4.5 should be able to work on an LCIII

 

6) I am sure it wouldn't lose its retail value, so could easily be resellable once no longer needed.  And It does say it will work with an LC III.

 

5) I believe there has been some success using a usb to serial convertor on the PC end to the serial on the Mac.  Maybe pose that question on comp.sys.apple2

 

4) The + sign means it is a forked file and can only be used on the IIGS.  Ignore those for the IIc.

 

3) Go to the Macintoshgarden.org website.  It will tell you what games are compatible with Basilisk.

 You can also try setting the computer to black/white, 16 or 256 colors.

 There is also an extension that allows the 68030 chip to run 68040 software.

 

2) Only an Apple CD-300 will work with the older Mac computers and requires a third party cd driver.  It has been too long and don't know the name off hand but needs to be installed for OS7.5.5.

 I also have used a CD-600, and a SCSI CD-writer on 4 digit Macs, and an old usb1.1 cd-writer on PowerMacs.

 

1) You can also double your capacity by using an older zip program on the PC.  I use WinZip on WinXP, and on the Mac end for an LC III is a Mac program called ZipIt.  For 4 digit Macs, StuffIt can be upgraded to v5.5 and can Unzip files.

But as far as I know, there are no programs that can split files amongst several disks.

 

- another option is to look into Zip drives.  These come with 100 Mb and 250 Mb disks and the drives can be SCSI, parallel port of a PC or both, like this one: http://www.ebay.com/...e-/282368179940

 

- or find a cheap 4 digit or PowerMac Desktop G3 with ethernet or USB, and file sharing becomes easy.  The highest Windows version I have shared with is WinXP., and the lowest Mac was the 5500 All-in-one

 

 



#3 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:12 PM

Thanks Iamgroot!  I think I will keep a running log of outstanding questions.  I am trying not to spend any money because I don't have it at the moment, but I definitely appreciate all of your suggestions.  Here is what is left:

 

1) I know that ZIP and Winzip supports large files on multiple disks.  Perhaps ZipIt can be used in the same way.  I will try this when I get a chance.  I would probably use Basalisk II to create the zip files so they would maintain their Mac attributes.

 

2) The CDROM I have was used previously with this Mac, but on the 1GB drive.  From what I read online, it is just a matter of having the correct driver.  It's possible that 7.1 is my current issue with the 80MB hard drive.  Thanks for the tips so far.  If it is working properly, will a CDROM icon show up if there is no disk inserted?  Can you scan the SCSI bus from a Mac to see if it is appearing?

 

3) Thanks for the tips.  Will see if I have any more questions.

 

4) You mean ignore for the Mac?

 

5) Thanks.  I got my serial cable to work with Xmodem and Clarisworks already, so I know the cable works.  I will experiment with Local Talk and Basilisk and see what happens when I have time.

 

6) It's just money that I want to be sure I want to spend before I spend it, so I am happy to work on the other issues first to make sure I like the Mac and can get most things working the way I want to.  Eventually, I will probably get it though and can always sell it like you said.

 

7) I think when I tried to install 4.5, it said I needed 7.1.1 and I have 7.1.  That's good to know that it should work though.  Hopefully 7.1.1 doesn't need any diskspace over 7.1.

 

Thanks again!

Mike


Edited by thorr, Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:24 PM.


#4 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:12 AM

1) right!  I guess I do remember reading something about splitting files with Zip but never had a need for it.

 

2) It's been awhile and all my old hardware is in storage.  I had forgot about the cd-rom that has the cartridge.  The cartridge type cd-roms will show an icon on the desktop or it may be because of the cd-rom driver with 7.1.  The newer style cd-300 will only show an icon when the cd is installed but requires the newer 3rd party driver.  The third party cd-rom utility that I have shows all the SCSI bus assignments.  Come to think of it, I had replaced the old cd-rom drivers in all OSes from 7.1 to 7.5.5 with the third party driver, just because it showed the SCSI assignments and plus it was a bit more responsive.  And it allowed the use of newer non-cartridge cd-roms.  I recall there to there being 3 cd-rom drives that worked with it, but I only had the cd-300.

 

4) right.  I had Ciderpress in my head when replying, but means the same thing.  The "+"  means a forked file.



#5 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:58 PM

Thanks again. Finally getting time to play with this some more.  Right now I am copying all of the files off the 80 MB onto 1.44MB floppies on a microSD card via the Floppy Emu.  It's taking forever, but at least everything is getting backed up.  Today, the computer almost didn't boot at all, so I was happy when it started working again and I could copy the files off.  After this is all done, I may delete some stuff and upgrade the OS to 7.1.1 and try to get King's Quest V working as a test.  I may just use Xmodem to send the file since it seems to work for sending files, but I have no idea if the file will be executable once it gets there.

 

2) Any idea what third party driver you used that shows the SCSI assignments?  My CDROM is a tray type, but I know it used to work.

 

New question:

 

8 ) Is there a way to use a joystick with a Mac LC III?  If you have an Apple IIe card with an Apple II compatible joystick, can it be used in Mac games?


Edited by thorr, Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:59 PM.


#6 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:00 AM

Just deleted a bunch of stuff and upgraded to 7.5.3 and was able to install StuffIt Expander 5.5.  Now in the process of trying to transfer King's Quest V via Xmodem 1K.  It failed a couple of times because my PC side crashed.  Trying again...  It takes forever.  For some reason I can't get Basilisk II to launch from the GUI.  Nothing appears.  Would have liked to have tried AppleTalk.



#7 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:29 AM

Success!!!!  Well, not at first, but now I have it.  The Xmodem transfer finished, but the file was corrupt.  However, I tried ejecting and reinserting the CDROM and it read the disc!  I had already previously burned King's Quest V to the CD using the image you provided, and it worked perfectly!  This method is SOOOO much better and easier than trying to use floppies.  I tried that too by the way and Stuffit said the zip file wasn't right and it wouldn't work with multiple files.  I never tried ZipIt, but don't need to now that my CD is working.  King's Quest V is working great too!  At this point, I feel pretty good about the computer working the way I want it to.  I don't have much free space on the hard drive, but for now it does the job.  Eventually I may decide to purchase the SCSI to SD converter if for no other reason than to kill the noise from the loud 80MB hard drive.  Also, I installed Disk Copy 4.2 and I can read my MS-DOS disks! 

 

So, my only question left is if there is a joystick capability for the Mac LC III and do games support it?

 

Thanks for all of your help!

Mike



#8 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:34 AM

you can get DISKCOPY 6.3.3 and MacOS 7.6.1 from here

http://www.macfixer....ntage-software/

 

I started a new thread and attached a zip file that has the 3rd party cd-driver and SCSI assignments.

 

 

There were very few adb joysticks made for the Mac.  You might be hard pressed to find one.  I have a couple of Gravis joysticks, but these are really high end joysticks that include a touch pad.  I have never plugged them in.

You may even been more hard pressed to find a game that supports joysticks, especially for the older Macs.  But you will find that most games have a really good, smooth and responsive movement using the keyboard arrow keys.  And the Open Apple and Option (Closed Apple) keys on the keyboard are mapped to a joysticks buttons.  In the end, you would be most likely to put down the joystick and just use the keyboard.



#9 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:20 PM

Never mind new thread
 


#10 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:38 PM

Thank you Iamgroot!  The links to the files don't work.  Maybe you can upload them to Sendspace and put the link here.

 

I want to stick with 7.5.5 at the most as that is the last version that works with the IIe card.  However, I am just about ready to order a SCSI2SD adapter, and in that case, I can have more than one boot drive so I could use 7.6.1 most of the time, and if I ever need the IIe card, boot off the 7.5.5 drive.  One new question I have: Can you format a hard drive or a partition as FAT on the Mac LC III?  This is how I could easily exchange data between the PC and the Mac.  Just have an extra hard drive formatted as FAT on the SD card and then put it in my PC and copy the files to and from there. 

 

Thanks again!



#11 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:13 PM

Have there been problems on these Forums for files disappearing out of "My Media".
Are they automatically deleted after a certain amount of time?
 
Here they are again temporarily until I find a more permanent storage.
 


#12 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 PM

Thank you Iamgroot!  The links to the files don't work.  Maybe you can upload them to Sendspace and put the link here.

 

I want to stick with 7.5.5 at the most as that is the last version that works with the IIe card.  However, I am just about ready to order a SCSI2SD adapter, and in that case, I can have more than one boot drive so I could use 7.6.1 most of the time, and if I ever need the IIe card, boot off the 7.5.5 drive.  One new question I have: Can you format a hard drive or a partition as FAT on the Mac LC III?  This is how I could easily exchange data between the PC and the Mac.  Just have an extra hard drive formatted as FAT on the SD card and then put it in my PC and copy the files to and from there. 

 

Thanks again!

 

 

The IIe card will work with 7.6.1, you will have to transfer the extensions for the IIe card from the System 7.5.5 folder to the new System 7.6.1 folder though.

 

Only OS 8.5 and higher have the capability to format to FAT16.  OS7.5.5 should be able to read FAT (also known as FAT12) but FAT is never used to format hard drives, only 3.5 floppies.  You could try formatting the hard drive to FAT16 from the PC (if it allows) and see if the Mac LC III can read it.  The hard drive should be no larger than what FAT (not FAT16) can support, which I think is about 128Mb.  FAT16 can support up to 2Gb hard drives. 



#13 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 1, 2017 1:16 AM

Thanks.  From what I have read, the IIe card requires 24-bit addressing and that stopped with 7.5.5.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIe_Card If there really is a way to make it work with 7.6.1, that would be great!

 

Thanks for the suggestion on formatting.  I have a small unallocated portion on my SSD drive and I went through the motions in Windows Disk Management to create a partition of 10 MB and it gave me the options of formatting to FAT, FAT32 or NTFS.  So at least I can format to "FAT" using Windows 10.  Reading up on this, FAT in this case is FAT16.  FAT12 is limited to 32 MB.  FAT16 came out in 1987 and the LC III came out in 1993, so there is a chance it can read FAT16.  I will probably start with a small partition like 10MB and test it, and if that works try a larger one like 1GB and see what happens. 

 

Thanks again, and if you can re-upload those files when you get a chance that would be great!  If it doesn't work here, www.sendspace.com is easy and free.  Edit: I see that you tried uploading again, and now it is saying I don't have permission to download them.  Before it said they were missing.

 

 

Just ordered the SCSI2SD v5 (V6 is out of stock, more expensive, and the V5 is fast enough for the LCIII).  I saw here that even FAT32 works in System 7.1 with PC Exchange so theoretically I will be fine with a 2GB disk:  https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=898808 I only need it to be able to read, and this will most likely be better than having to burn CD's.


Edited by thorr, Wed Mar 1, 2017 1:47 AM.


#14 The Usotsuki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 1, 2017 3:34 AM

There's FAT12 (pre-DOS 1), FAT16 (DOS 3.0 or 3.1), BIGFAT (DOS 3.31/4.0) and FAT32.  Usually FAT16 and BIGFAT are lumped together.



#15 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 1, 2017 12:15 PM

Thanks.  From what I have read, the IIe card requires 24-bit addressing and that stopped with 7.5.5.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_IIe_Card If there really is a way to make it work with 7.6.1, that would be great!

 

Thanks for the suggestion on formatting.  I have a small unallocated portion on my SSD drive and I went through the motions in Windows Disk Management to create a partition of 10 MB and it gave me the options of formatting to FAT, FAT32 or NTFS.  So at least I can format to "FAT" using Windows 10.  Reading up on this, FAT in this case is FAT16.  FAT12 is limited to 32 MB.  FAT16 came out in 1987 and the LC III came out in 1993, so there is a chance it can read FAT16.  I will probably start with a small partition like 10MB and test it, and if that works try a larger one like 1GB and see what happens. 

 

Thanks again, and if you can re-upload those files when you get a chance that would be great!  If it doesn't work here, www.sendspace.com is easy and free.  Edit: I see that you tried uploading again, and now it is saying I don't have permission to download them.  Before it said they were missing.

 

 

Just ordered the SCSI2SD v5 (V6 is out of stock, more expensive, and the V5 is fast enough for the LCIII).  I saw here that even FAT32 works in System 7.1 with PC Exchange so theoretically I will be fine with a 2GB disk:  https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=898808 I only need it to be able to read, and this will most likely be better than having to burn CD's.

 

Looks like even SendSpace expires after 30 days of inactivity, unless I upgrade.

And each time something is uploaded I get a new link?  And I have to keep track of the links?

OUCH!  They don't make it easy, do they?

 

Here is a temporary link

https://www.sendspac...kpK5/1J4q9b8Q6A

https://www.sendspac...zV4MHItRdQ1aw73

 

 

 

Looks like others have tried OS 7.6.1 with the IIe card.

https://discussions....tart=0&tstart=0

 

I found OS7.6.1 to be very stable, and with a lot of unnecessary extensions removed and combined as compared to OS7.5.5 it has quite a bit smaller foot print than OS7.5.5.

Since you have only an 80 Mb internal hard drive, you could move your System 7.5.5 folder and all work files to an external drive,  install OS7.6.1 on the internal which saves a lot of space.

 

And when you need to use your Apple IIe card, just boot from the external drive with System7.5.5.



#16 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 1, 2017 12:44 PM

There's FAT12 (pre-DOS 1), FAT16 (DOS 3.0 or 3.1), BIGFAT (DOS 3.31/4.0) and FAT32.  Usually FAT16 and BIGFAT are lumped together.

 

 

I am not sure of your use of DOS in this.  Are you taking MSDOS, PCDOS or ??

 

The way the number works with FAT is it describes the # of bits used to identify the block #.

12 bits ($FFF)  means you can have 4096 blocks

16 bits - ($FFFF) 65536 blocks

24 bits - ($FFFFFF) 16777215 blocks

32 bits - ($FFFFFFFF) 4,294,967,295 blocks

and so on.

 

but what can change is the block size.  You can have 512 byte blocks which is what Prodos supports.

1kb, 2kb, 4kb, 8kb, 16kb and 32 kb block sizes.  That is why when you save a text file with one or two words, you might see a 16kb or 32 kb file size.

 

so take 16 bits for example, if a block size is 512 bytes, then 65536 blocks x 512 = 32 Mb max size hard drive

65536 x 1kb = 64 Mb

65536 x 2kb = 128 Mb

up to

65536 x 32kb = ~ 2 Gb

The 32 kb file size is largest I have seen on any computer.

 

 

I have never heard of BIGFAT, but this must be the 24 bit version of FAT.

max size 16777215 x 32 kb = 549,755,781,120 = 512 Gb

 

FAT32 max size 4,294,967,295 x 32kb = 140,737,488,322,560 = 128 Tb



#17 The Usotsuki OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 1, 2017 12:54 PM

I am not sure of your use of DOS in this.  Are you taking MSDOS, PCDOS or ??


Same difference. PC DOS prior to 5.02 is just a rebadged MS-DOS.
 

I have never heard of BIGFAT, but this must be the 24 bit version of FAT.


BIGFAT is the version introduced with 4.0 (and 3.31) that breaks the 32 MB barrier by expanding the maximum sector count.



#18 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Mar 1, 2017 1:32 PM

One more note, Rich Drehers CFFA card (pre CFFA3000) supports 28 bits with a 512 byte block

 

28 bits - ($F FF FF FF) = 268,435,455 blocks x 512 = 128 Gb

 

I wrote a driver for my CFFA card that supports 24 bits or 8 GB which allows me to have 256 volumes of 32 Mb each on one CFFA card.

They can't be mounted all the same time, but they don't need to be.

 

I can copy files from one 32 Mb volume to the next with only using one slot.

 

It's been fun sorting files.  a couple volumes used for games, another couple for graphics, and so on.

 

If more hardware creators thought like Rich, by now we could have had thee ideal 8-bit computer.



#19 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:17 AM

 

Looks like even SendSpace expires after 30 days of inactivity, unless I upgrade.

And each time something is uploaded I get a new link?  And I have to keep track of the links?

OUCH!  They don't make it easy, do they?

 

Here is a temporary link

https://www.sendspac...kpK5/1J4q9b8Q6A

https://www.sendspac...zV4MHItRdQ1aw73

 

 

 

Looks like others have tried OS 7.6.1 with the IIe card.

https://discussions....tart=0&tstart=0

 

I found OS7.6.1 to be very stable, and with a lot of unnecessary extensions removed and combined as compared to OS7.5.5 it has quite a bit smaller foot print than OS7.5.5.

Since you have only an 80 Mb internal hard drive, you could move your System 7.5.5 folder and all work files to an external drive,  install OS7.6.1 on the internal which saves a lot of space.

 

And when you need to use your Apple IIe card, just boot from the external drive with System7.5.5.

 

Drat!  The first sendspace link that has the two CD driver files isn't working at the moment.  It says try again later.  The second link with the three attachments works.  Sendspace is usually reliable, but it is definitely temporary.

 

I was also thinking that there are far too many extensions being loaded currently on my Mac.  I am planning to do a clean install when my SCSI2SD arrives.  I won't need to use the real 80 MB drive at all.  I can set up multiple hard drives on different SCSI ID's on the SD card and boot whichever one I want.  I can probably even copy the contents of the 80 MB hard drive onto one of the new drives on the SD card and just leave it as is and have lots more free space than I currently do.  I ordered the SCSI2SD with an 8GB MicroSD card, so I will set up four 2GB drives.  1: 7.6.1 clean install, 2: 7.5.5 Apple IIe card ready, 3: 2GB extra space I can copy CDROM games onto if needed, 4: 2GB FAT drive I can use to download install files to from the internet on my PC. 



#20 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 2, 2017 1:20 AM

Just saw that I can upgrade to 33 MHz by moving a resistor on the motherboard.  I wonder if this is worth trying: http://lowendmac.com...-mac-lc-series/



#21 Iamgroot OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 2, 2017 10:24 AM

I see the system 7 files have disappeared from "My Media" again.  They must be screening them and not allowing content with Operating Systems in them.

 

 

https://www.sendspac...q/BVLClY3Df/XhA

 

If this fails, you will have to send me an email to reply to.



#22 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Mar 2, 2017 12:16 PM

Thanks!!  They worked this time.  If it ends up being a scanning issue in the future, you could password protect the zip files and put the password along with the link.  It might have just been a glitch too.  We can check the link in a few days and see if it still works to know for sure.



#23 Osgeld ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Mar 4, 2017 9:59 AM

for what it's worth

 

my apple IIe card on my LC2 (which is a lot less beefy than your III so it may not be true for you) ran super super slow on 7.5. I dropped the os to 7.01 and it runs at a proper speed 

 

oh did you ever get an awnser about question 5) I do it all the time I will download a disk image off the internet, send it over to the mac over serial and just use apple's disk image software to mount it


Edited by Osgeld, Sat Mar 4, 2017 10:05 AM.


#24 thorr OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Mar 4, 2017 1:13 PM

Thanks for the tip. I will see what happens with the IIe card. My SCSI2SD should hopefully arrive today and I can start playing with different configurations to see what OS works best, etc.  I gave up on number 5 after I saw how slow it was just using Xmodem and how easy it is to burn a CD with the software on it.  I am hoping I will be able to use the SCSI2SD with a FAT partition to make it super easy and not have to burn CD's.



#25 Osgeld ONLINE  

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Posted Sat Mar 4, 2017 1:18 PM

you can read HFS file systems with linux if you add in the hfsutils packages and using HFSExplorer on windows (and you should be able to read prodos partitions with ciderpress since prodos can use up to 32 meg partitions, though I never tried reading them on a pc) 


Edited by Osgeld, Sat Mar 4, 2017 1:20 PM.




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