mr_me Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 What's concerning about fpga? They are integrated circuits just like anything else. It's up to the manufacturer to select the most economical IC technology for the application. It's true, many people don't need a traditional PC at all. But lots of people do. They are far from dying. And some applications are shifting back to being server/cloud based thin client. Slower cpus are always being replaced with better cpus as prices drop. Is the cheap "home" PC disappearing, I haven't been paying attention. If you don't like windows, switch to linux. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) It would be interesting to see what demosceners do with a blank FPGA all by itself.This for example https://youtu.be/h42neZVvoMY Edited July 14, 2017 by Newsdee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) I see at the MiST a project that the RaspberryPi is used as modem for the Amiga core. I don't known if the FPGA can handle memory and GPU from the RPi or only used as GPU accelerator as the Amiga AGA.It doesn't connect to it. The RPi is used as a real modem via serial connection, one could plug it to a real Amiga in principle. As for acceleration it can be done in the FPGA. The port of this core to MiSTer (MiST on a mass produced Terasic board with much bigger Cyclone V FPGA at 110K LE) is able to run Workbench at 720p. If is the same (or upgraded with same compatibility) Spartan6 used at the Mist (XC6SLX9-2TQG144C) would be a nice alternative The MiST is in a different league with a bigger FPGA at 25K LE (Cyclone III), versus 9K LE of the ZxUno, ZX Next, and Papilio boards (Spartan6). For comparison the FPGA in the RetroUSB AVS has 9K LE, and the one in the Analogue NT mini 25K LE. The newer MiSTer project is using a board (DE0-Nano Kit) that's relatively cheap ($130) with HDMI out of the box, so I'm following that with interest. Edited July 14, 2017 by Newsdee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 The MiSTer project suggests that "hybrid-emulation" is a simple mix of FPGA + traditional CPU. Some parts are emulated in the FPGA, and others in the ARM CPU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) The MiSTer project suggests that "hybrid-emulation" is a simple mix of FPGA + traditional CPU. Some parts are emulated in the FPGA, and others in the ARM CPU.Not quite, it's the same as the MiST that uses a tiny ARM CPU for I/O handling. For example it handles USB connectivity, but translates to "real" (electrical) signals for the core. It also handles SD cards (e.g. moving data into RAM as ROM) and provides an overlay to switch cores and other functions, for example. Thats not so much emulation but rather a common UI/framework to normalize interaction with the outside world. Cores could implement something like that in the FPGA (e.g. ZPUFlex) but it's a waste not to use available resources on the Cyclone V. Perhaps you mean that in principle somebody could write an emulator on the ARM and leverage the FPGA to interface to hardware. Yes, that's certainly possible with one of these chips but have not seen it done so far. At least with Open Source its easy to check which side is running things. Edited July 14, 2017 by Newsdee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismet Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Not quite, it's the same as the MiST that uses a tiny ARM CPU for I/O handling. For example it handles USB connectivity, but translates to "real" (electrical) signals for the core. It also handles SD cards (e.g. moving data into RAM as ROM) and provides an overlay to switch cores and other functions, for example. Thats not so much emulation but rather a common UI/framework to normalize interaction with the outside world. Cores could implement something like that in the FPGA (e.g. ZPUFlex) but it's a waste not to use available resources on the Cyclone V. Perhaps you mean that in principle somebody could write an emulator on the ARM and leverage the FPGA to interface to hardware. Yes, that's certainly possible with one of these chips but have not seen it done so far. At least with Open Source its easy to check which side is running things. You'd likely not want to emulate things in the FPGA that aren't timing sensitive if you don't have to. USB joysticks are timing sensitive. Real hard drives and floppy drives are, but you typically don't emulate these at that low of level, you emulate them at the interface level. So if there is no need to create a IDE or SCSI interface to connect to a real IDE or SCSI drive, then you just emulate that part with COTS parts. The FPGA mainly needs to emulate the CPU, FPU, GPU, APU parts, and not anything that would be connected to those parts. So you could make it run at the native resolution and audio rate, but you don't need to emulate the analog interface, you can directly connect that to HDMI if it puts out a native compatible output, or you need to create a line-doubler/audio oversampler to make it compatible. But also keep in mind that onboard HDMI IC's in FPGA kits are not line-doublers, they are typically framebuffers that add latency, so that's trivial if you are watching video or demos, but if you're actually wanting to interact with things, then that buffering can't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 .... But also keep in mind that onboard HDMI IC's in FPGA kits are not line-doublers, they are typically framebuffers that add latency, so that's trivial if you are watching video or demos, but if you're actually wanting to interact with things, then that buffering can't exist. Well, it can't if the game was built with direct input response tied to 240p60 for example, modern games tolerate (and have to) higher latencies by design .. wireless controllers add latency, current HDMI video chip are usually full frame (and so are most PC cards, you don't get to sync at the line level), the actual console hardly generates native content at the stated res (some do) and there's an upscaling process at play which may again go full buffer ... I was in a presentation of a cloud based game engine for FPS a few years ago and the devs stated that in the end even if they render content at 60 fps they only react to user input at 1/5th to 1/10th of that .... yep you heard me right they basically render at least 6 frames at 60fps before even considering the user actions. Given the games where made with that in mind it didn't feel bad or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismet Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Well, it can't if the game was built with direct input response tied to 240p60 for example, modern games tolerate (and have to) higher latencies by design .. wireless controllers add latency, current HDMI video chip are usually full frame (and so are most PC cards, you don't get to sync at the line level), the actual console hardly generates native content at the stated res (some do) and there's an upscaling process at play which may again go full buffer ... I was in a presentation of a cloud based game engine for FPS a few years ago and the devs stated that in the end even if they render content at 60 fps they only react to user input at 1/5th to 1/10th of that .... yep you heard me right they basically render at least 6 frames at 60fps before even considering the user actions. Given the games where made with that in mind it didn't feel bad or anything. MMORPG's typically are designed around the nagle algorithm (200ms) so yes 5fps is what MMORPG's are designed to operate on. However turn the nagle algorithm off and players that are right next door to the data center will get 120fps of input timing resolution TO the server while players in Australia will get maybe 4. That's neither here nor there for FPGA's however. The point of a FPGA is to get that precise timing. I wouldn't be surprised if 2D, Fighting games, SHUMPS and Platformers press in this direction (FPGA input devices with simple analog input.) There is too much inherent input latency on a PC for these games to really be viable due to all the layers they go through to process input and output, that's why RPG and FPS are pretty much what gets PC ports, the game engines (Unity, Cryengine, Unreal, etc) are all designed around PC performance in a single player environment. You can get away with only so much. If game developers were seriously interested in solving the latency problem, they would abandon "cloud" anything. That's the wrong direction. The only reason to "cloud" anything is where you want to secure the game environment from meddling players, data miners and other amateur hacks, while offering a consistent experience to players who are running on extremely sub-par systems. But the catch here is that this is extremely high latency, you're not going to simply connect to an emulator running a Mario game from 1990, you're going to port that Mario game so that it can deal with that kind of input and rendering turn around. This is largely going to be a thing for MMORPG's and Mobile players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 In the MISTer and Analogue NT Mini the HDMI upscaling is handled inside the FPGA. That takes up resources (LEs) but can be customized per core if necessary to be more or less complex. As Kevtris pointed out in a few posts it can be tricky due to HDMI asking for precise timings, but it remains flexible versus a fixed IC. USB in my experience isn't a big problem, if I'm not mistaken a good USB circuit polls at 1Mhz and FPGAs will read it immediately. If the ARM is mostly idle other than handling the translation of inputs from USB to GPIO (/SPI), then I wouldn't expect much lag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) A nice update, there is now a 486 core for MiSTer, which is kind of a successor for the MiST. It's still more of a hobbyist board (compared to MiST that is better packaged as an end user device) but its a nice evolution. The FPGA is pretty big (4x the MiST and Analogue NT mini) https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki The core can boot Win 3.11 and 95, and has basic Sound Blaster support. It supports a couple of hard drive images so is quite easy to setup. Edited August 21, 2017 by Newsdee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 If game developers were seriously interested in solving the latency problem, they would abandon "cloud" anything. That's the wrong direction. The only reason to "cloud" anything is where you want to secure the game environment from meddling players, data miners and other amateur hacks, while offering a consistent experience to players who are running on extremely sub-par systems. But the catch here is that this is extremely high latency, you're not going to simply connect to an emulator running a Mario game from 1990, you're going to port that Mario game so that it can deal with that kind of input and rendering turn around. This is largely going to be a thing for MMORPG's and Mobile players. That reminds me, there was this really awesome port of Super Mario for DOS, that I downloaded once upon a time. I'll see if I can dig it up. It should run great in DOSBOX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 That reminds me, there was this really awesome port of Super Mario for DOS, that I downloaded once upon a time. I'll see if I can dig it up. It should run great in DOSBOX. I had that... but I forgot the name. Might still have it in an old backup CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 That reminds me, there was this really awesome port of Super Mario for DOS, that I downloaded once upon a time. I'll see if I can dig it up. It should run great in DOSBOX. I had that... but I forgot the name. Might still have it in an old backup CD. Being the digital pack-rat that I am, I have about 2 decades worth of downloaded junk on my computer. I've got two versions of the 16-bit DOS EXE file. Neither runs on Windows 7 x64 but Avast says they are clean. I've got a 64.5kb file (MARIO.EXE modify date 1997) and a 78.0kb file (SUPER_MARIO.EXE modify date 2000). I believe one of them is more complete than the other. Sadly I don't have DOSbox or an older computer to test with, so I can't verify the content. SUPER_MARIO.zip EDIT: Tested it in DOSBOX and it works! Super_Mario.exe is simply a self extractor that extracts Mario.exe 1UP tip. Hop on the first Goomba you see underneath the palm tree. If done correctly, a 1UP will appear! Okay my memory is rusty, but I swear if you jump in the air aided by a goomba bounce somewhere is a 1up in the first stage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro_fan Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 It looks like the development of an FPGA SNES called VeriSNES goes really well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ae5iUe8diY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 The author says he ported it to MiSTer but binaries aren't yet available. It does look very promising though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Didn't Kevtris say that Mist didn't have nearly enough gates to emulate the snes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Didn't Kevtris say that Mist didn't have nearly enough gates to emulate the snes? MiSTer is far more powerful than the original MiST. MiST specs : https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki/TheBoard MiSTer specs : https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 (edited) Didn't Kevtris say that Mist didn't have nearly enough gates to emulate the snes? This is the MiSTer, a successor project built with the Terasic DE10-Nano board, which has a Cyclone V FPGA at 110K LE, HDMI output, 1GB of DDR RAM, and a 900Mhz ARM CPU. The board itself is available from a big manufacturer, but also needs (for many cores) a little add-on board to give it SDRAM (for faster access). Available cores so far are new PC 486 core (with soundblaster), plus a few ported from the original MiST codebase. Board itself costs $130 and the add-on a few bucks (a few people make them on the forums or you can make your own with the available schematics). It is a bit more hobbyist-ortiented than the MiST, but isn't too complex to setup and is in active development, It's only been out for 2-3 months as a fully open project. MiSTer wiki: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki Terasic Board: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&No=1046 Edited September 19, 2017 by Newsdee 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismet Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Being the digital pack-rat that I am, I have about 2 decades worth of downloaded junk on my computer. I've got two versions of the 16-bit DOS EXE file. Neither runs on Windows 7 x64 but Avast says they are clean. I've got a 64.5kb file (MARIO.EXE modify date 1997) and a 78.0kb file (SUPER_MARIO.EXE modify date 2000). I believe one of them is more complete than the other. Sadly I don't have DOSbox or an older computer to test with, so I can't verify the content. SUPER_MARIO.zip EDIT: Tested it in DOSBOX and it works! Super_Mario.exe is simply a self extractor that extracts Mario.exe 1UP tip. Hop on the first Goomba you see underneath the palm tree. If done correctly, a 1UP will appear! Okay my memory is rusty, but I swear if you jump in the air aided by a goomba bounce somewhere is a 1up in the first stage... You could have just linked to the author's site. http://www.wieringsoftware.nl/mario/ Source code included. This is the MiSTer, a successor project built with the Terasic DE10-Nano board, which has a Cyclone V FPGA at 110K LE, HDMI output, 1GB of DDR RAM, and a 900Mhz ARM CPU. The board itself is available from a big manufacturer, but also needs (for many cores) a little add-on board to give it SDRAM (for faster access). Available cores so far are new PC 486 core (with soundblaster), plus a few ported from the original MiST codebase. Board itself costs $130 and the add-on a few bucks (a few people make them on the forums or you can make your own with the available schematics). It is a bit more hobbyist-ortiented than the MiST, but isn't too complex to setup and is in active development, It's only been out for 2-3 months as a fully open project. MiSTer wiki: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki Terasic Board: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&No=1046 The DE10-Nano might be large enough for the SNES. jwdonal's VeriSNES is on a DE2-115 which has 114K LE and the DE10-Nano has 115K. But that might be an apples/oranges comparison. Emulating an x86 up to a 486 might be viable if you can emulate a MT-32/AWE32/GUS, otherwise a FPGA x86 only solves the same latency/timing problem the FPGA consoles have. However just watching that video tells me that that even if the MiSTer emulates a 486, it might not have the space to emulate much else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 You could have just linked to the author's site. http://www.wieringsoftware.nl/mario/ Source code included. Sweet. I had no idea the site still existed. I recall the project started off as a demo he created using a game design tool he authored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro_fan Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PU7TAN40Jk "Introducing my FleaFPGA 'Ohm' Experimenter board! Flea Ohm is described as a compact, powerful yet easy-to-use FPGA development board built around a variation of the raspberry pi zero form factor. Flea Ohm is useful in applications ranging from robotics to retro gaming. Flea Ohm can operate standalone or as a co-processor 'hat' for a raspberry pi computer. I am looking to raise sufficient funds to do a modest production run of 'Ohm' boards and make these available to the wider community." It already supports Minimig and Next186 cores. Don't forget to check from to time the updates on the ZX Spectrum Next project, it's getting more and more interesting, let's hope they deliver. Edited October 11, 2017 by retro_fan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Awesome. Do you think it would be possible for a guy like Kevtris to port his cores over to it? Also will legacy analog a/v signals be supported? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Possible to port over? There are a number of conditions that have to be met: 1- Time and effort 2- Number of LE has to be sufficient 3- Video and I/O would need to be remapped and scaled 4- SDRAM would need to be present There's probably more. So It's going to be iffy at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro_fan Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 [...] Also will legacy analog a/v signals be supported? FleaFPGA's designer reply: "Yes, there are several ways to get purely analog signals out of FleaFPGA Ohm. Among those are: R2R DAC, Sigma-delta DAC and PWM. Stated methods also require some external resistors and capacitors to be added (but very little else). Various sites on-line provide further info, here's one: http://www.fpga4fun.com/PWM_DAC.html" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 That Indiegogo board will be kind of moot if the Ketris FPGA SNES supports jailbreak firmware post launch. Analog video outputs are fun but not worth the NT Mini pricepoint IMO. If everyone buys Kevtris' stuff then it will get zero support basically. And why the hell are they using Indiegogo instead of Kickstarter? They already have a proto it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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