Connecting to a BBS Without a Phone Line?

[_The Doctor__]

Since the 25 pin end of the cable you bought is standard pin-out you can use an rs232 25 pin null modem adapter on it. it might cost you a dollar or two....

 

the confusion that happens is why the rs232 became such a pain... the pinouts vary from machine to machine and add in female/male connections and what happens in essence numbers overload the brain and we over-complicate it.. second guessing mirroring reversing and then it all goes wrong.

 

I have hand made crazy number of cables.... and every once in a while I even botched it...

 

here's a modem cable whipped together for a uds-10 and usr modem with full compliment of control lines

 

[Tempest]

Since the 25 pin end of the cable you bought is standard pin-out you can use an rs232 25 pin null modem adapter on it. it might cost you a dollar or two....

 

So I can put a Null Modem adapter ATARI MODEM cable I bought and basically make it into an ATARI TERMINAL cable? Well that would certainly be cheaper. I can do this even though the Atari cable has a different pinout than the standard one?

 

I need a DB25 Null Modem Female to Female adapter right since the Atari cable is male and so is the port on the MSS-100? Like this?

[fujidude]

Okay, based on your situation I suggest the following setup:

 

Probably best performing option

• Atari to PC running APE or Respeqt (APE is commercial and I think is Windows only, where Respeqt is open and Win or Linux) via SIO2USB.
• The PC then can offer a virtual "modem" to the Atari, but which is telnet/Internet capable.
• The PC to your Internet connected network.

Advantages are low or no additional cost for you, and I think it offers 19.2kbps (if not more) and RS232 flow control issues are bypassed entirely. The 850 tops out at 9600bps, and though port R1 has CTS and RTS support in hardware (that's called hardware flow control) something is telling me I remember the 850 software driver has no support for it, and will have to rely on software (XON/XOFF) flow control?

 

The alternative option

• Atari to 850 via Atari SIO cable.
• 850 to to DB25 F/F null modem and gender changer via your Atari Modem Cable.
• The DB25 F/F null modem and gender changer to a Lantronix MSS-100.
• The MSS-100 to your Internet connected ethernet network.

Advantage here is the even more complete authentic retro experience of also utilizing your 850 in addition to your Atari computer, and also the ability to hook up your TI 99/4(a) (or any other retro computer that you can somehow get standard RS232 going on).

 

EDIT: additionally that null modem / gender changer also turns that damn MSS-100 into a proper piece of DCE like it should be wired in the 1st place! Hmph. So there!

 

To all of you guys: If I am mistaken about any of these details, please do speak up and point them out. Especially if it would cause either of the two solutions not to work.

Edited March 17, 2017 by fujidude

[Tempest]

 

• Atari to 850 via Atari SIO cable.
• 850 to to DB25 F/F null modem and gender changer via your Atari Modem Cable.
• The DB25 F/F null modem and gender changer to a Lantronix MSS-100.

 

Perfect. So I just need the DB25 F/F Null Modem gender changer thingy. Sweet.

 

 

EDIT: additionally that null modem / gender changer also turns that damn MSS-100 into a proper piece of DCE like it should be wired in the 1st place! Hmph. So there!

 

It actually already has a DB-25 to DB-9 adapter on it already (not sure if it's a Null Modem adapter or not though). I also have a DB-9 to DB-25 null modem cable in my box of junk already so I can probably just use that with my other systems (assuming it's the right gender).

[fujidude]

 

Perfect. So I just need the DB25 F/F Null Modem gender changer thingy. Sweet.

 

 

Yes I do think so. Give folks a chance to peer review 1st though in case I'm all washed up again.

 

 

It actually already has a DB-25 to DB-9 adapter on it already (not sure if it's a Null Modem adapter or not though). I also have a DB-9 to DB-25 null modem cable in my box of junk already so I can probably just use that with my other systems (assuming it's the right gender).

 

I suggest attaching only the DB25 combination gender changer / null modem adapter to the MSS-100. It gives the MSS-100 the same kind of signaling, pinout, and gender that any standard RS232 based serial modem would be sporting. And since the MSS-100 is supposed to act as a modem, then that's more appropriate anyway. Plus then anybody else's RS232 serial interfaces will mate right up with it.

[_The Doctor__]

Since the 25 pin end of the cable you bought is standard pin-out you can use an rs232 25 pin null modem adapter on it. it might cost you a dollar or two....

 

the confusion that happens is why the rs232 became such a pain... the pinouts vary from machine to machine and add in female/male connections and what happens in essence numbers overload the brain and we over-complicate it.. second guessing mirroring reversing and then it all goes wrong.

 

I have hand made crazy number of cables.... and every once in a while I even botched it...

 

here's a modem cable whipped together for a uds-10 and usr modem with full compliment of control lines

 

upper right EDS100 crimped ribbon to black box

lower right UDS10 (non-IAP) to home made full handshake modem cable to MIO (notice pin 9 db9 is not connected to pin 11 on db25 on my cable)

left side pre-made cable on P:R: Connection to USR DS

 

PIN 9 on the Atari 850 port 4 is for 20ma loop so I left it off this goes to pin 11 on some db25 devices and can be used to select a secondary channel...

pin 9 db9 on some interfaces it is RI or ring indicator.... that is a ringing tone is detected..... not just and incoming call... depending on the device.... is pin 22 db25

since I use these cable for many applications I simply err on the side of caution and left it out.

 

wow weirdness, my post is split....

Edited March 17, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[_The Doctor__]

@ Tempest- It looks promising but they don't give enough information for me to say definitively yes..... it may be good enough for low speed because they don't list if it is full handshake control on not... most do/some don't.... It is a great idea because it gives flexibility to whatever you want to hook up to the MSS...

 

be glad you don't have this situation...

 

I gotta whip up four more custom cables..... yep it's gonna be (2) Atari 9 pin to rs232 9 pin, and (2) Card edge ribbon to rs232 9 pin.

not sure if I should make them terminal nulls or just put the adapters on the fricken' LTX box....!

 

This change is being made to cut power consumption in half, remove clutter, and make the two machines happy.

Edited March 17, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[UNIXcoffee928]

I used to work in Information security... Even in the 1990s it was clear that allowing telnet to run is an open invitation to having an unsecured internal network.

 

Do any of these modern hardware devices have something that acts as a black-box ssh proxy?

 

Meaning that the local retro system (on both sides of the connection) connects to the serial to ip converter locally via telnet, but the net-traversing data is provided with a secure ssh connection between the two converters for the user & the BBS.

 

If not, something like this could be rigged up with a locked down & fully secured Raspberry Pi or Linux or BSD box, in line after the serial to ip converter, to provide ssh, as long as modern BBSs adopted it as a standard practice. Even this, though, is not really ideal, because the mere acceptance of an open telnet port is a big problem.

 

But, really, at that point, it's easier to just do away with the black-box ip converter, altogether, and connect the Atari to the Pi directly, as a serial tty, then have the pi connect to the Internet securely via ssh. BBS operators would then need to make provisions for this, on their end.

 

Granted, that, in practical terms, it's not such a big deal going from the Atari to the serial to ip converter to your hub, and then out to the net... but that is still Security through Obscurity, and is not an ideal element of a local Security Policy, particularly because you don't know how the user's home network is set up... if they have an improperly secured gateway or more than one router in the mix of their local network, there is a distinct security hazard, where the converter and/or the Atari becomes an attack vector.

 

The bigger problem that I see is that people are using telnet on their modern PCs, via emulation, APE, etc. In those cases there is no excuse for not providing ssh capability, by default, and it is opening a lot of retro-users up to a huge security hazard. Many people who are just "trying out connecting to a Retro-BBS" are not going to be considering the security aspects, and will be unknowingly putting all of the systems on their own network at risk. While old-fashioned, port scanning does go on, and it's just good Policy to eliminate obvious security vulnerabilities.

 

I assert, further, that there is no assurance, whatsoever, that the firmware in any of these converters is secure, or that bugs may exist that could potentially be exploited, creating a local network vulnerability. You may say that all of this is incredibly unlikely, but ponder this... What if the Retro-user is fiddling around with this, on lunch break, in the machine room, or at a datacenter? Sure, that's not all that likely, but it is a distinct possibility... now suppose that there are 10s, 100s, 1000s of modern machines & virtual machines on locally addressable internal networks... You should get the picture.

 

It's always best practice to eliminate the potential for these kind of vulnerabilities before something terrible happens.

 

You might say, "Why do I care?"... Well, usually, no one does... UNTIL their system or network is compromised, data is lost, or you suddenly find out that your modern systems are part of a Botnet, etc. All because of a configuration issue that was ignored or neglected.

 

I'm interested in hearing opinions on this.

[Tillek]

All of this chatter has got me interested in setting up a dial-up and/or telnet ATASCII BBS!

Or.... (and this isn't necessarily directed at you personally) perhaps people could try calling the ones that are out there?

 

It almost seems to me that we have more SysOps in the "Atari BBS Community" than we have callers.

 

And that's based on my observations calling around to the Atari boards. I try to hit them daily or every few days max now and still far too often it will say "Last Caller - TIllek".

 

Breaks my heart.

[Tillek]

It actually is sort of exciting, isn't it? Maybe it's a dumb thought, but I've been wondering if I can use a Lantronix device to enable a networked game of MIDIMaze...

It's not a dumb thought. In fact, we've been talking about this on Particles! BBS. Not MIDIMaze specifically, but old modem capable games in general.

 

Wrote a starship combat game for the ST back shortly after the earth cooled that I found again... Was modem/midi/null capable at the time. Was planning on testing it soon with the Lantronix though there really isn't any reason why it wouldn't work.

[Tillek]

I use a db9 to rj45 adapter <---regular cat5/6 cable---> rj45 to db25 adapter. Easy to pin out however you want, use short or long cables, and adapters are dirt cheap on Ebay.

s-l1600.jpg s-l1601.jpg

If you make a mistake with the pinout, use this d-sub extraction tool:

s-l1602.jpg

 

I use these at work occasionally if I can't find a console cable for switches, firewalls, UPSes, etc. They'll go for long distances too -- I've used a 75ft cable in-between and it never missed a step at 57600 baud.

These are amazing for quickly wiring your own cables. I used them when I wanted to make the cable for the Commodore BBS server and TCPser when I got drunk one night and almost considered switching my BBS off the Lantronix.

 

All in all it didn't end up working out, but it had nothing to do with the cable. I wired a cable up in less time than it took me to actually type this message. I got a store about 45 minutes away where I can get them any time I need one.

[Tillek]

Since the 25 pin end of the cable you bought is standard pin-out you can use an rs232 25 pin null modem adapter on it. it might cost you a dollar or two....

 

the confusion that happens is why the rs232 became such a pain... the pinouts vary from machine to machine and add in female/male connections and what happens in essence numbers overload the brain and we over-complicate it.. second guessing mirroring reversing and then it all goes wrong.

 

I have hand made crazy number of cables.... and every once in a while I even botched it...

 

here's a modem cable whipped together for a uds-10 and usr modem with full compliment of control lines

 

DSCF1340.JPG

Just out of curiosity, what's that blue Lantronix box in the top right?

[Tillek]

So I can put a Null Modem adapter ATARI MODEM cable I bought and basically make it into an ATARI TERMINAL cable? Well that would certainly be cheaper. I can do this even though the Atari cable has a different pinout than the standard one?

 

I need a DB25 Null Modem Female to Female adapter right since the Atari cable is male and so is the port on the MSS-100? Like this?

Yes. This is what I had recommended earlier (but probably worded it poorly). What I'd recommend is that you leave the null modem adapter and the gender changer on the MSS-100 at all times.... then you can just use whatever modem cable for whatever computer you want to use it with... In fact, you probably could even use an RS232 switch if you want to get really slick about it..... https://www.amazon.com/C2G-Cables-4-Port-Manual-Switch/dp/B0000512C5

[Tillek]

 

Yes I do think so. Give folks a chance to peer review 1st though in case I'm all washed up again.

 

 

I suggest attaching only the DB25 combination gender changer / null modem adapter to the MSS-100. It gives the MSS-100 the same kind of signaling, pinout, and gender that any standard RS232 based serial modem would be sporting. And since the MSS-100 is supposed to act as a modem, then that's more appropriate anyway. Plus then anybody else's RS232 serial interfaces will mate right up with it.

Since that's pretty much the same thing I said earlier, I have a vested interest in not finding anything wrong with your suggestion

[Tillek]

@ Tempest- It looks promising but they don't give enough information for me to say definitively yes..... it may be good enough for low speed because they don't list if it is full handshake control on not... most do/some don't.... It is a great idea because it gives flexibility to whatever you want to hook up to the MSS...

 

be glad you don't have this situation...

DSCF1346.JPG

 

I gotta whip up four more custom cables..... yep it's gonna be (2) Atari 9 pin to rs232 9 pin, and (2) Card edge ribbon to rs232 9 pin.

not sure if I should make them terminal nulls or just put the adapters on the fricken' LTX box....!

 

This change is being made to cut power consumption in half, remove clutter, and make the two machines happy.

Yeah, I've been pondering myself how to handle that as the number of machines I actually am setting up is growing.

 

If I remember, there was a 4 port MSS variant, right?

 

But i also bought an 8 port serial card so I could run multiple TCPSer (or multiple SIO2PC and even plan to put on a real modem or two). The TCPSer/BBS Server didn't work for SFHQ BBS (didn't try it for the Carina 8-bit one) and that way I can put a gateway in so my BBSs have the ability to be reached by modem.

 

But I digress....

[+davidcalgary29]

Or.... (and this isn't necessarily directed at you personally) perhaps people could try calling the ones that are out there?

 

It almost seems to me that we have more SysOps in the "Atari BBS Community" than we have callers.

 

And that's based on my observations calling around to the Atari boards. I try to hit them daily or every few days max now and still far too often it will say "Last Caller - TIllek".

 

Breaks my heart.

I'm sure that won't be the case once more people read this thread. It's a great solution, and many of us probably have most or all of this tech lying around, just waiting to be used.

[fujidude]

Since that's pretty much the same thing I said earlier, I have a vested interest in not finding anything wrong with your suggestion

 

Yes, it pretty much is. But when I decided to delve into it I didn't know what I would ultimately be recommending. Also, I wanted to lay out a post where the relevant information was presented in an organized way, with supporting rationale. There was lots of good information bouncing around in here among many different posts and users, but I got the sense that Tempest was looking for something to put it together a bit more.

 

If it were me, I would probably try to get Respeqt running on a Raspberry Pi or other SBC, and then use that to serve my old Atari iron (if I still owned old Atari iron). When you have an Atari 8-bit, who needs a TI 99 anyway?

[Bill Lange]

Or.... (and this isn't necessarily directed at you personally) perhaps people could try calling the ones that are out there?

 

It almost seems to me that we have more SysOps in the "Atari BBS Community" than we have callers.

 

And that's based on my observations calling around to the Atari boards. I try to hit them daily or every few days max now and still far too often it will say "Last Caller - TIllek".

 

 

Yep ... this is step #1. I set up a 130XE, 1050 and a XM301. I just copied XE_TERM to an actually 5 1/4 to see if I can dial out ...

 

Then I'll try the new school telnet route

[+davidcalgary29]

Wow, I haven't tried a 300 baud modem since I bought a SX212 with my summer job money in 1988! Good for you!

 

I'm going with the telnet option, and should be all set once the dog teams cross the tundra and deliver my MSS100 some time in the next decade.

[Tillek]

You could also call right now using SyncTerm on the PC. Works great (I use it to call my own BBSs since often times it is quicker than firing up the retro machines).

 

SyncTerm does a great job of handling ATASCII, and for calling ST BBS's, since it doesn't support VT-52, you can use ANSI (which on my BBS, the ANSI is way better than the VT-52 anyway and on DarkForce it works fairly well).

 

Mine even has a web client right off the webpage, so you don't even have to worry about setting up something like SyncTerm on the PC... (and once I get it's ATASCII working, then I might even set it up so the other Atari BBS's can be reached through it if they want).

[Bill Lange]

While I was able to connect to a BBS, it was an 80 column wide ANSI graphics BBS that wanted way too much personal information for me to get past the new user login process ... but successful all the same.

 

Next up, I'm going to fire up an 850 with a Hayes modem to see if that is working too.

 

Bill

[Tempest]

Yes. This is what I had recommended earlier (but probably worded it poorly). What I'd recommend is that you leave the null modem adapter and the gender changer on the MSS-100 at all times.... then you can just use whatever modem cable for whatever computer you want to use it with... In fact, you probably could even use an RS232 switch if you want to get really slick about it..... https://www.amazon.com/C2G-Cables-4-Port-Manual-Switch/dp/B0000512C5

We have those in the junk pile at work, I'm sure of it. I might have to snag one.

[+davidcalgary29]

While I was able to connect to a BBS, it was an 80 column wide ANSI graphics BBS that wanted way too much personal information for me to get past the new user login process ... but successful all the same.

 

Next up, I'm going to fire up an 850 with a Hayes modem to see if that is working too.

 

Bill

Have you tried this with a XEP80 (if you have one)?

[Tillek]

We have those in the junk pile at work, I'm sure of it. I might have to snag one.

If there happen to be two....... Jus' askin......

 

I'm actually seriously thinking of grabbing one. I have a second MSS100 and the more I think of it, I really don't want to have all my machines relying on TCPSer with my PC. I can use the 8 serial ports for other things (like APE and the modem access for my BBS's).

[Tillek]

Have you tried this with a XEP80 (if you have one)?

Actually, ICE-T will do 80 col (and ANSI) without an XEP80. Can't say for 100% certain it will work with an XM301, but it works with Lantronix (through an MIO for suer) and solutions like APE.