The official lag thread!

[toptenmaterial]

As classic gamers deal more and more with high definition sets, lag becomes inevitable. Let's talk about your experiences with lag, what you've learned and how you've dealt with it.

 

As for me, I have a Wii that a plug into a high def Viewsonic by way of the RCA ports. There is no game setting on this TV. I really notice anything with Wii specific games but emulation can be a laggy issue. With some games and homebrew emulators the lag is not noticeable; I notice absolutely nothing with Super Castlevania IV, for example. Everything seems instantaneous. Super Mario All-Stars, however, is a disaster. I'm guessing there is more than a half second of lag. SNES generally runs without perceptible lag, whereas my NES emulator is unplayable due to lag (forget about Punchout). With differences like these, I'm wondering if some games and emulators are more prone to lag, and if the programs themselves are the issues. However, I'm going to do a little experiment. I have a small CTR set I'm going to hook up tonight and see if it gets rid of lag on those problem games.

[keepdreamin]

Keep in mind your Wii is outputting an analog signal your TV has to change over. Try something over HDMI

[mr_me]

A TV's "game" mode is a setting that should turn off extra picture enhancement processing. If you go through the TV's settings, you can just turn off every feature it allows to be turned off.

[Eltigro]

I replied to this yesterday but it just showed up today.

[toptenmaterial]

I got myself an old beat up 12" Panasonic and am running emulators on it from the Wii. Zero perceptible lag.

[Tanooki]

I got one that maybe worth a groan or laugh depending how you look at it.

 

Back when the Super Mario Allstars Wii release popped up I was all over that. Around that time I got this 1K bonus at work and my TV so happened to choke, so I hit up Fry's and not knowing of such stupidity went and got this fantastic large (45~) inch Samsung LED TV. I decided to move the Wii onto that off of my Panasonic Viera LCD, which at the time I had no idea the mistake it was (as that tv had such a low display rating, there was no perceived difference even on testy games like Punchout.) The Samsung was the total opposite. I thought I forgot how to play Mario. I'd be going along and like early World 2 you're in a stage that is enclosed, very early is like a pipe, goomba, and a hole. No matter what I did I couldn't clear a simple jump jump hole jump and would get bit or skydive into oblivion. I'd then try the game (cart) on my SNES still on the Viera...did fine. So I blamed Nintendo doing shitty emulation on a disc being even lazier than people picked on them for the time and sold it (thankfully due to the greed run on it, I got my money back plus a few bucks pain and suffering.)

 

Maybe 2 years or so later someone on NintendoAge was looking to sell theirs bored with it, I made a joke about the game, he took it as me wanting to buy it, and his price was so low I just went ahead and did it. Curiosity kicked in, because by that time I had learned of displaylag.com and LCD lag, just so happened to still have the Viera and learned how much of a turd the Samsung was and had the Wii back on it -- shock, the game didn't suck. Ever since then anytime I've needed to buy a TV, I go to that site, and if the TV can't pull at worst 30ms (or less) lag I won't buy it as it'll screw up pre-HD gaming every time. Currently the 2 TVs I can go between sit around 25ms and work perfectly for the classics.

[keepdreamin]

 

Maybe 2 years or so later someone on NintendoAge was looking to sell theirs bored with it, I made a joke about the game, he took it as me wanting to buy it, and his price was so low I just went ahead and did it. Curiosity kicked in, because by that time I had learned of displaylag.com and LCD lag, just so happened to still have the Viera and learned how much of a turd the Samsung was and had the Wii back on it -- shock, the game didn't suck. Ever since then anytime I've needed to buy a TV, I go to that site, and if the TV can't pull at worst 30ms (or less) lag I won't buy it as it'll screw up pre-HD gaming every time. Currently the 2 TVs I can go between sit around 25ms and work perfectly for the classics.

 

Keep in mind, that test is done over HDMI using the following device: http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/?main_page=product_info&products_id=212

 

They aren't testing analog connections.

 

Even though the Framemeister is an additional 20ms or so, it's been shown to be actually quicker to use it, then just a direct connection to the TV.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ_z6DYx2wU

 

The OSSC should get you the bodnar tested rating on displaylag.com, should your tv accept the signals.

[Tanooki]

I hate to say it but I don't follow that really, but if the framemeister adds on 20ms, and my TVs sit around 25 as it is, I don't see the improvement being worth the money involved in one of those as I understand they're not cheap.

[toptenmaterial]

There are modern sets out there with minimal lag for RCA or coax?

[keepdreamin]

There are modern sets out there with minimal lag for RCA or coax?

 

I'm not aware of any.

 

I hate to say it but I don't follow that really, but if the framemeister adds on 20ms, and my TVs sit around 25 as it is, I don't see the improvement being worth the money involved in one of those as I understand they're not cheap.

 

Your TV with an analog connection isn't 25ms, that's the point.

 

Framemeister + HDTV = less lag, awesome picture

No framemiester + same HDTV = more lag, worse picture

 

It's not complicated.

[toptenmaterial]

Framemeister is the solution for lag? Sorry to be so repetitive, I'm just beginning to build knowledge and I will be shipping for a new set soon. I was astounded when I plugged my Wii into my ancient Panasonic.

[Tanooki]

I thought there was a TV out there. When I picked up the Viera I have stored at the moment around 3-4 years back there was a smaller Sony TV that was like 2.5x the price and it had a special chip inside made to drop so called input lag problems down to a level of a computer LCD basically but it was like $600 for a 20" screen vs $250 for a 29" I got and it just felt like a stupid waste. Really wish I could remember the chip tech noted or the model.

 

 

Ok so I got the framemeister backwards, still I can't justify the 3 figures price behind those to deal with some level of lag I don't already suffer from on the two TVs I have games tied to at this point. For me all that matters is what I call (and others) the Punchout test. If you can do something like maul bald bull on his death blow jump, or pip in the numbers and last at least a minute with Tyson, the TV is just fine.

[+thegoldenband]

On rtings.com they claimed my Vizio LCD had only 26.5ms of input lag; it assuredly has far more than that, and when I put it together with emulators, we're talking about 200ms of lag or more.

 

Maybe someday I'll have a TV I can use for action-oriented gaming, but not now, so I use my CRT unless I'm playing RPGs or other genres where lag doesn't matter. Too bad plasmas aren't on the market anymore.

[keepdreamin]

Framemeister is the solution for lag? Sorry to be so repetitive, I'm just beginning to build knowledge and I will be shipping for a new set soon. I was astounded when I plugged my Wii into my ancient Panasonic.

 

It's not THE solution, it can be A solution.

 

If your tv is already bad over HDMI it won't help. It can only help speed up the analog to digital conversion, that's it.

[keepdreamin]

For the "framemeister is too pricey crowd" , how much have you spent on items related to, but not directly involved in playing video games? (collectors editions, posters, figures etc..)

 

If the answer is more than $350, give yourself a firm palm to the forehead.

[Tanooki]

Guess I'm safe. But still though, if the TV you have already isn't giving you a problem with the outcome of how a game works, then it's just pissing $350 for no effect in all fairness. Obviously I think in the end it comes down to a mix of just a bit of reality, but also just personal threshold for the issue.

 

Look at that first bit I wrote up that started this tangent. TV A was a hot mess that caused a measurable problem using a Wii (with component cables, not RCA) and it was a disaster. The same setup on TV B(Panasonic), C(Vizio), and D (an inherited Samsung) all ran as nicely for myself and others at the time as a CRT. At the time I did have a CRT as I had a Sharp NES TV which had an RF option while having TV B. Usually I'd have the Master System and N64 daisy chained to it after I figured out the big screen sucked as I ran out of room on my non garbage Panasonic where I had it then.

 

Just throwing everyone into that pot as delusional or wrong and needing to piss $350 on a converter is dumb if it isn't causing a problem. If you have a TV that breaks that barrier where lag isn't going to be picked up by the player it's not a problem leaving the only good use of a CRT anymore is for light gun game lovers and hardcore purists.

[keepdreamin]

Guess I'm safe. But still though, if the TV you have already isn't giving you a problem with the outcome of how a game works, then it's just pissing $350 for no effect in all fairness.

 

have you used a system with RGB and the framemeister? I'm gonna say no.

[+thegoldenband]

If you have a TV that breaks that barrier where lag isn't going to be picked up by the player it's not a problem leaving the only good use of a CRT anymore is for light gun game lovers and hardcore purists.

 

I used to think along similar lines, since I never noticed any lag when playing with emulators and/or LCD displays. But when I did some testing with a few different input and output sources, it was amazing by what margin real hardware + CRT outperformed the other options, and how much better I played using a lag-free setup. There's a threshold that's below your conscious perception of lag, but that still has an effect on your play; you may think it's not affecting you, and the effect may be small, but I can attest that it's very real.

 

I'd be very curious to go back to the setup I used from 1999-2005 or so, with iNES on a Mac G3 and a CRT monitor, and see how much lag that had.

[toptenmaterial]

 

I used to think along similar lines, since I never noticed any lag when playing with emulators and/or LCD displays. But when I did some testing with a few different input and output sources, it was amazing by what margin real hardware + CRT outperformed the other options, and how much better I played using a lag-free setup. There's a threshold that's below your conscious perception of lag, but that still has an effect on your play; you may think it's not affecting you, and the effect may be small, but I can attest that it's very real.

 

I'd be very curious to go back to the setup I used from 1999-2005 or so, with iNES on a Mac G3 and a CRT monitor, and see how much lag that had.

Interesting observations. I've never done the Punch-Out test (Bald Bull takes me out under the best of conditions), but I am curious about how my Wii is doing now that I have it hooked up to the old CTR through the RCA. I can tell you that it feels pretty damn good. Again I haven't done the real twitch reflex games, but have played a bunch of SNES like SMB All-Stars and Mario World, Castlevania 4 and X, Pilotwings and some others. I truly wonder if there is any difference between this setup and the real thing.

[Jimjans]

Interesting observations. I've never done the Punch-Out test (Bald Bull takes me out under the best of conditions), but I am curious about how my Wii is doing now that I have it hooked up to the old CTR through the RCA. I can tell you that it feels pretty damn good. Again I haven't done the real twitch reflex games, but have played a bunch of SNES like SMB All-Stars and Mario World, Castlevania 4 and X, Pilotwings and some others. I truly wonder if there is any difference between this setup and the real thing.

Its a diffrence I think there is about 2 frames om NES and 3-4 when it comes to SNES when you use the best PC solution just for the emulation then you have the usb polling and the display adding some input lag.

 

And the Wii is not better when it comes to input lag than a PC and much worser if you use the bluetooth controller.

 

I have the ossc scan doubler and a framemeister.

Using a real SNES is less input lag when used on a slow screen 50ms compared to emulation on a fast screen even on crt.

[toptenmaterial]

What about the reverse? Such as taking a PS TV or android box and converting to RCA? Not trying to be facetious.

[Tanooki]

I'll make it easy. No I've not used one. And no at $350 on a tight budget you'll never convince me how necessary it is to own one either since it doesn't foul what I play up in the least bit without one. Feel free to prove me wrong, buy one and mail it to me.

 

I'm not saying I don't agree or disagree with the argument, but the money isn't there, and even if it was I'd likely never drop it because what I do play isn't being hindered by it otherwise perhaps I would get picky enough to bother.

[NE146]

Worst lag that was very apparent to me was trying to play Rocksmith with a real guitar.. I was initially very excited to play but wow, you hit a string and a half second later you hear the note. It was simply unplayable for me, and pretty disappointing. Yes there are things you can do to alleviate it (component vs. hdmi,, game mode, etc. etc.) but it never really quite "got there". I suppose since it was on the 360 I could have attempted to play it on one of the 3 CRT's I keep around now that I think about it.....

[toptenmaterial]

Worst lag that was very apparent to me was trying to play Rocksmith with a real guitar.. I was initially very excited to play but wow, you hit a string and a half second later you hear the note. It was simply unplayable for me, and pretty disappointing. Yes there are things you can do to alleviate it (component vs. hdmi,, game mode, etc. etc.) but it never really quite "got there". I suppose since it was on the 360 I could have attempted to play it on one of the 3 CRT's I keep around now that I think about it.....

The exact same thing happened to me with my bass!!!

[Tanooki]

So rocksmith doesn't have a fix for that eh? Guitar Hero 3, or was it Rock Band Beatles (never bothered with any others) has a calibration screen where you watch the bars and stuff roll by and you play along with a super easy set of commands and you go back and forward a bit and it coordinates the display lag with your eyes on game experience to tidy it up.