NOS CX-52 has same issue on two different consoles?

[CZroe]

Another member here sold me a case of New Old Stock CX-52 controllers and I finally decided to break one out in order to properly test a 2-port console I recently came across. I very quickly realized that I could only move left and up in Pac-Man and I couldn't move all the way down or right in Missile Command. Because the 1st player port was crooked and possibly to blame, I tested it in my old 4-port 5200 and found the exact same behavior.

 

I read that calibration takes place inside the console, but something tells me that it is the joystick. How likely is it that both consoles have the same problem as opposed to this problem coming from the controller itself?

[spacecadet]

It's most likely the joysticks. It's probably something in the way they were stored that made them have the same pattern of oxidation, but it sounds like oxidation in the pots. I think some Deoxit D5 would probably fix that right up. The hardest part would be getting the Deoxit in the right place and not making a mess.

 

How are your keypads?

 

It sucks that this happened with NOS controllers, but 5200 controllers are notorious for going bad just sitting on a shelf, and it's usually an oxidation problem.

[CZroe]

It's most likely the joysticks. It's probably something in the way they were stored that made them have the same pattern of oxidation, but it sounds like oxidation in the pots. I think some Deoxit D5 would probably fix that right up. The hardest part would be getting the Deoxit in the right place and not making a mess.

 

How are your keypads?

 

It sucks that this happened with NOS controllers, but 5200 controllers are notorious for going bad just sitting on a shelf, and it's usually an oxidation problem.

Yeah, I expected them to be oxidized, but the keypads and fire buttons feel fine for the moment. Because worn controllers are usually worse for the buttons that actually get used, I've always suspected that much of the issue was exacerbated by the carbon/rubber failing too. Of course, not feeling signs of oxidation in the keypad/buttons also kinda points back to the console, so I still don't know if it's a bad controller or not.

 

The thing is, if I didn't observe that exact same range issue across two consoles then I would have just assumed that I needed to calibrate the console. Because most people calibrating their console do so without trying their controller in another, they may be calibrating their console to a bad controller too. I assumed this was about as close to a "known good" controller as I could get, and it still could be that both consoles have gone out of spec instead.

 

If anyone knows what resistance value ranges I should measure in the console and what resistance value ranges I should measure in the controller pots, that would probably be the best way to approach this.

 

Thanks!

 

Oh, and MEtalGuy66 mentioned in another thread that B&W video could be cause by a color adjustment circuit developing high resistance, and this unit was showing B&W video for a few minutes the first time I got it to boot. If the video circuit can develop high resistance I guess the analog controller circuits can too. Because color returned when it warmed up and didn't go away (even when the power was drained then re-tested several hours later) I'm less inclined to think it's that simple, but it is interesting since we may be dealing with other parts that have "developed high resistance."

 

The color adjustment circuit most likely has developed high resistance in the potentiometer.. Try adjusting it.

I've broken into potentiometers to clean and lube the innards before but it would still be useful to know the specs I'm supposed to see. Anyone know where I can find that? Thanks!

Edited May 3, 2017 by CZroe

[bohoki]

hmm i assume the controllers were never taken apart the pots are around 500 k center is somewhere around 230k all the way up or left may be 10k all the way right and down maybe 480k

 

sometimes making circles in missile command can make the system adjust or try turning the machine on with the controller up left

 

youve probably seen the pinout the top row is the matrix keypad the bottom row 3 on one side are the center, x and y the 3 on the other side is the b1 b2 and ground

 

the middle bottom pin is just for the trackball

[CZroe]

hmm i assume the controllers were never taken apart the pots are around 500 k center is somewhere around 230k all the way up or left may be 10k all the way right and down maybe 480k

 

sometimes making circles in missile command can make the system adjust or try turning the machine on with the controller up left

 

youve probably seen the pinout the top row is the matrix keypad the bottom row 3 on one side are the center, x and y the 3 on the other side is the b1 b2 and ground

 

the middle bottom pin is just for the trackball

Correct. It's fresh out of the factory case.

 

 

I'm familiar with the typical problems with these controllers and was thoroughly expecting to have to clean the contacts, but because the buttons all seem to work fine (for now) I hadn't taken it apart.

 

I just measured resistance through the controller cable one pot reads about 12K ohm and the lowest and one reads 0 ohm at the lowest (not even reading attenuation resistance through the cable). I can't remember which corresponds to which high reading, but the high readings were about 337K and 350K. I would assume that the pots just don't move through the full 500K range but this site seems to imply that I should get 500K through the pins:

http://arcarc.xmission.com/Web%20Archives/Deathskull%20(May-2006)/games/tech/5200cont.html

 

I mean, I've seen how they work inside and it seems to me that the pots get a less than half a turn. Are they only half-turn pots or something?

 

I'm curious to know what other people actually measure at the controller port to know if this is normal in case it's just that the console needs to be calibrated to the controller.

 

Thanks again!

Edited May 4, 2017 by CZroe

[CZroe]

Well, I took the controller apart and measured but the pots don't get anywhere near 500k ohms. For example, I can turn the vertical pot and watch until it reaches about 385k ohms. I can continue turning quite a bit more but the measurement stays at 385k ohms. Because DeoxIT lowers resistance, I don't think it's going to help here where I need to increase it.

[H454]

Because DeoxIT lowers resistance, I don't think it's going to help here where I need to increase it.

I just cleans, and the crap built up inside can lower resistance where you don't want it. That what the jitter is.

Also, for pots and silders - use:

Hosa F5SH6 CAIG DeoxIT Faderlube

"DeoxIT FaderLube (formerly CaiLube) is a precision lubricant designed for use on conductive plastic and carbon compound controls. It is also ideal for use on conductive membrane switches and components."

 

I used both - deoxit on switches and fader on Atari pots - it works great!

Edited May 9, 2017 by H454

[CZroe]

I just cleans, and the crap built up inside can lower resistance where you don't want it. That what the jitter is.

Also, for pots and silders - use:

Hosa F5SH6 CAIG DeoxIT Faderlube

"DeoxIT FaderLube (formerly CaiLube) is a precision lubricant designed for use on conductive plastic and carbon compound controls. It is also ideal for use on conductive membrane switches and components."

 

I used both - deoxit on switches and fader on Atari pots - it works great!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/271471905481

"DeoxIT[emoji768] Fader F-Series is a precision lubricant specifically formulated to improve conductivity..."

 

Hmm, well they did say to use the normal DeoxIT first so hopefully that does the trick if there is some kind of conductivity-increasing corrosion/oxidation in there (NOS). This stuff is expensive though! I've always hesitated buying it since I usually get away with 99.9% isopropyl and dielectric grease, but I do service pots often enough that I should probably have both in my toolkit.

 

I'll probably get a Best Electronics rebuilt controller to compare/adjust to so I know what values to target for everything else. Thanks!

[H454]

Yea, I just got a 5200 - with a joy stick that was half screwed together and missing a screw.

Got the joystick to work, but the all the buttons are trash.

 

If your using iso to clean, it can leave residue. I go over stuff I cleaned with a clean qtip.

As for lube, I find using as little as possible works best.

 

Are you going to do a full gold best cx-52?

I'm thinking about it, parts come out to a little less than a new one with a trade in(the mail is what kinda kills it for me).

[bohoki]

i have rigged up joysticks in the past with small hole mount pushbuttons drilled through the lower body of the joystick with the wires just shoved into the contacts i used solid phone wire red for one button green for ground and black for the other button you could also rig up a push button for start

 

but if the harness has a break in the cable (often near the plug end) it didnt help when they encouraged people to tightly wrap the cord around the stick and fit 2 of them in the trap door it was nice they put a couple notches so you can have the wires come out

 

basic trouble shooting is key

[CZroe]

Yea, I just got a 5200 - with a joy stick that was half screwed together and missing a screw.

Got the joystick to work, but the all the buttons are trash.

 

If your using iso to clean, it can leave residue. I go over stuff I cleaned with a clean qtip.

As for lube, I find using as little as possible works best.

 

Are you going to do a full gold best cx-52?

I'm thinking about it, parts come out to a little less than a new one with a trade in(the mail is what kinda kills it for me).

For isopropyl-based rubbing alcohol, yes, but I use 99.9% pure "electronics cleaning grade" PUREtronics-brand Isopropyl, so there should be no additives that leave residue. I actually used my 50% dilution with distilled water, but that should have no residue as well and I did dry with a cotton swab (actually used a brand-new 1-up Card to clean/dry the end of the ribbon cable).

 

I'm going to be shipping the 2-port 5200 to a Canadian friend of mine and it makes sense to get the Best refurbishment done 1st so he won't need to ship internationally 2 more times. I asked Best for a quote on all 4 but, in an attempt to save me money, they graciously declined while suggesting that I would only ever need 2. I may only do 1 to see what the proper pot values are so I can attempt to do the others myself.

 

but if the harness has a break in the cable (often near the plug end) it didnt help when they encouraged people to tightly wrap the cord around the stick and fit 2 of them in the trap door it was nice they put a couple notches so you can have the wires come out

Actually, I don't think the cords are intended to be stowed with the controllers because there are holes on either side for the cord to pass through. They are probably supposed to remain plugged into the front of your console while in storage. People usually miss this because it would cause a big kink to force the cord out of the same side... but not if the cord goes across the other controller and out the opposite side. It's awkward since one controller's cord will be in the way when stowing the 2nd controller, but it seems to be the intent. I don't have the owner's manual so I'm curious to know what it says about stowing the controllers.

 

Edit: Well, you were right...

 

...Atari actually did tell users to wind the cord! It still seems that the notches are there to optionally allow the cords to remain plugged in. Too bad they didn't even mention it, though it is visible in their pictures...

Edited May 10, 2017 by CZroe

[bohoki]

yea it would have been nice to have a supplimental that encouraged users to put controller one on the right and controller 2 on the left because of you put the controller one on the left side it requires quite a kink at the stress relief to get the cord to come out the same side

 

i guess i would say the odds of a cable break at the plug end about 60% at the stress relief about 30% and anywhere along the cord from being slammed in drawer or bitten by dog about 10%

[CZroe]

Just received this in the mail last night:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122449648323

Disintegrated rubber boot, broken plastic inside, missing Start/Pause/Reset mylar, jammed stick, improperly reassembled, fire buttons not working, ... it was a mess!

 

It's an older Rev 7 mylar (NOS controllers are Rev 9) and even the insides were busted up... but the pots were in excellent shape (and very different). I got it together enough to measure through the joystick pins I was measuring 6k ohm-455k ohm on one and 6k ohm to 504k ohm on the other. I had full range in Missile Command and could actually go right or down in Pac-Man!

 

For these pots to have survived everything that controller has been through and still work like new while the NOS pots all failed without being used (I tested two from the case of four), it seems that the older controllers with inferior mylar simply had superior pots. I guess Atari was so focused on improving the button response/longevity that they compromised on potentiometer quality.

 

Of course, I had to toss them into the opened NOS controller. The better pots had an orange/red shroud so that they would fit the same place in the case. The terminals in the Rev 9 NOS controller had to be crimped tighter due to being way too loose on the better potentiometers.

 

Guess I'm not ready for a Best refurb just yet... I just need to find some more of these pots! Definitely means that the consoles were fine and didn't need adjustment.

Edited May 12, 2017 by CZroe

[H454]

Just received this in the mail last night:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122449648323

Disintegrated rubber boot, broken plastic inside, missing Start/Pause/Reset mylar, jammed stick, improperly reassembled, fire buttons not working, ... it was a mess!

 

It's an older Rev 7 mylar (NOS controllers are Rev 9) and even the insides were busted up... but the pots were in excellent shape (and very different). I got it together enough to measure through the joystick pins I was measuring 6k ohm-455k ohm on one and 6k ohm to 504k ohm on the other. I had full range in Missile Command and could actually go right or down in Pac-Man!

 

For these pots to have survived everything that controller has been through and still work like new while the NOS pots all failed without being used (I tested two from the case of four), it seems that the older controllers with inferior mylar simply had superior pots. I guess Atari was so focused on improving the button response/longevity that they compromised on potentiometer quality.

 

Of course, I had to toss them into the opened NOS controller. The better pots had an orange/red shroud so that they would fit the same place in the case. The terminals in the Rev 9 NOS controller had to be crimped tighter due to being way too loose on the better potentiometers.

 

Guess I'm not ready for a Best refurb just yet... I just need to find some more of these pots! Definitely means that the consoles were fine and didn't need adjustment.

 

Unfortunately with finding replacement pots, it seems that like no one makes them - unless its for an old guitar.

I've had multiple projects that needed new/ different pots and finding them was the hardest part.

 

What are the makings on both sets of pots? -like manufacturer.

Best sells replacements that are listed as

CO18118 CX52 Controller Potentiometer, 1st Gen. Panasonic version $6.95 - Maybe the kind you swapped in?

 

Also, what a pain trying to figure the best cx52 info - three different pages!:

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/cx52_j.htm

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/cx52.htm

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/5200.htm

 

I just ended up buying the non gold kit on eBay (from the same best guy? that's the impression I get from the AA forums).

[CZroe]

Unfortunately with finding replacement pots, it seems that like no one makes them - unless its for an old guitar.

I've had multiple projects that needed new/ different pots and finding them was the hardest part.

Tell me about it. I'd love to find suitable replacements for the NES/Famicom Arkanoid Vaus controller.

 

 

What are the makings on both sets of pots? -like manufacturer.

Best sells replacements that are listed as

CO18118 CX52 Controller Potentiometer, 1st Gen. Panasonic version $6.95 - Maybe the kind you swapped in?

Just got my DeoxIT D5 (still waiting on the DeoxIT FaderLube F100). I'll find out!

 

Also, what a pain trying to figure the best cx52 info - three different pages!:

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/cx52_j.htm

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/cx52.htm

 

http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/5200.htm

 

I just ended up buying the non gold kit on eBay (from the same best guy? that's the impression I get from the AA forums).

Tell me about it. If those are the same as these I have to wonder if they include the shroud that makes them fit. I assume that these aren't the very first pots or else the housing would likely have been designed around them instead.

 

FWIW, the good pots I have were glued down and the bad ones do not appear to be glued. So far I haven't had any trouble leaving them unglued after transplanting.

[CZroe]

 

What are the makings on both sets of pots? -like manufacturer.

Best sells replacements that are listed as

CO18118 CX52 Controller Potentiometer, 1st Gen. Panasonic version $6.95 - Maybe the kind you swapped in?

Pics:

https://imgur.com/a/gDb9j

 

The good pots are fully cased in metal and do say "Made in Japan" on the stem side but I don't recognize the logo on the back (three solid triangles linked by the outline of a triangle). Did Panasonic/Matsushita ever use that logo? The "ring" they describe seems to refer to the spacer piece these pots have. Top side also has a number 2 that's probably just to note it's position in a simultaneously manufactured batch (one says "2" and the other says "4").

 

On the back both are marked "C018118-1-03" with the C018, 118, and -1-03 all being stamped with different fonts, font weights, alignment, depth, etc). Underneath the left side of that is a "33" with two different fonts, one for each digit (first 3 has a flat top). There is a spaced out semicircle 3 2 1 mark along the bottom, but those are just pin/terminal designations.

 

The bad pots have a metal casing on one side and a bare PCB on the other. There is a large opening near the terminals where you can see the wiper if you hold it sideways. They do not externally say where they were made. The backs are labeled "C018118-01 137/8649" in a semi-circle wrapping most of the way around. There is a small "CTS" marked above a small opening. On the stem side there is a CTS logo visible on the PCB with the top of the letter T stylized to extend over the letters on either side. I don't know this company either, but I'll wager that the C means California, Cupertino, or Component.

Edited May 12, 2017 by CZroe

[CZroe]

Well, unfortunately, the DeoxIT D5 (5%) didn't do the trick. I still have FaderLube on the way, which I'll try, but I'm not expecting much. The bad pots have easy access where you can actually see the wiper, which definitely helps for applying contact cleaner and lube. I alternated between flooding it with D5 and working it over and over until the black drainage stopped, then I worked it 30 times, moved the arm to maximum, flooded it again, and checked. Still measuring 0 to 345 or 400k ohm range (expected 0 to 500k ohm range).

 

One thing I noticed about the other good pots is that the value for one keeps climbing when you push past the normal range of movement (IIRC, it went over 700k ohm). The other stops increasing at 504k ohms and does not raise further. That seems a little TOO " on the dot" and means that the rest of the range somehow adds no additional resistance, much like how the bad pots were built.

 

Perhaps some were close enough to 500k ohm at the correct position (far from maximum) and others needed adjustment that sets resistance to exactly 500k ohms at that position and every higher position. Something like a QA or bin-sorting practice to get the pots to the customer's specifications.

[H454]

Well, unfortunately, the DeoxIT D5 (5%) didn't do the trick. I still have FaderLube on the way, which I'll try, but I'm not expecting much. The bad pots have easy access where you can actually see the wiper, which definitely helps for applying contact cleaner and lube. I alternated between flooding it with D5 and working it over and over until the black drainage stopped, then I worked it 30 times, moved the arm to maximum, flooded it again, and checked. Still measuring 0 to 345 or 400k ohm range (expected 0 to 500k ohm range).

 

If you had a lot of black, than most of the "carbon"? is probably worn away.

 

 

 

One thing I noticed about the other good pots is that the value for one keeps climbing when you push past the normal range of movement (IIRC, it went over 700k ohm). The other stops increasing at 504k ohms and does not raise further. That seems a little TOO " on the dot" and means that the rest of the range somehow adds no additional resistance, much like how the bad pots were built.

 

Perhaps some were close enough to 500k ohm at the correct position (far from maximum) and others needed adjustment that sets resistance to exactly 500k ohms at that position and every higher position. Something like a QA or bin-sorting practice to get the pots to the customer's specifications.

 

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if these pots where spec-ed at +-20%.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the 5200 was made to think 50-100ohms in the center of the 0 - 500 is a "dead zone". Otherwise these controllers would be even more temperamental.

 

 

Pics:

https://imgur.com/a/gDb9j

 

The good pots are fully cased in metal and do say "Made in Japan" on the stem side but I don't recognize the logo on the back (three solid triangles linked by the outline of a triangle). Did Panasonic/Matsushita ever use that logo? The "ring" they describe seems to refer to the spacer piece these pots have. Top side also has a number 2 that's probably just to note it's position in a simultaneously manufactured batch (one says "2" and the other says "4").

 

On the back both are marked "C018118-1-03" with the C018, 118, and -1-03 all being stamped with different fonts, font weights, alignment, depth, etc). Underneath the left side of that is a "33" with two different fonts, one for each digit (first 3 has a flat top). There is a spaced out semicircle 3 2 1 mark along the bottom, but those are just pin/terminal designations.

 

The bad pots have a metal casing on one side and a bare PCB on the other. There is a large opening near the terminals where you can see the wiper if you hold it sideways. They do not externally say where they were made. The backs are labeled "C018118-01 137/8649" in a semi-circle wrapping most of the way around. There is a small "CTS" marked above a small opening. On the stem side there is a CTS logo visible on the PCB with the top of the letter T stylized to extend over the letters on either side. I don't know this company either, but I'll wager that the C means California, Cupertino, or Component.

 

I have seen that logo before, but my memory isn't great - I think its a Japanese heavy IND. combination logo. Like two comp. subcontract out the same stuff and say it made by both companys.

 

Any thing with CO at the beginning is an Atari part #.

And I think the "ring" is this:

 

CB101928 CX52 Pot Ring, required on Panasonic version Pot $1.50

 

 

But, hey, If there is one thing to take away from this hobby its this:

 

If I wasn't thrifty / cheap, I'd never learn anything!

Although, some of it is due to necessity.

 

I almost enjoy repairing / hacking more than playing!

Edited May 13, 2017 by H454

[CZroe]

I wouldn't be surprised if these pots where spec-ed at +-20%.

Well, I know from experience now that 20% off is too far. That's why I can't turn down or right with Pac-Man or reach the right or bottom side of the screen in Missile Command.

 

It also wouldn't surprise me if the 5200 was made to think 50-100ohms in the center of the 0 - 500 is a "dead zone". Otherwise these controllers would be even more temperamental.

That would be done in software so that Missile Command, Super Breakout, Pole Position and others would work right. As they are, software sees the two axes just like two paddles.

 

I have seen that logo before, but my memory isn't great - I think its a Japanese heavy IND. combination logo. Like two comp. subcontract out the same stuff and say it made by both companys.

I can't recall where, but me too. It's very familiar.

 

Any thing with CO at the beginning is an Atari part #.

And I think the "ring" is this:

 

CB101928 CX52 Pot Ring, required on Panasonic version Pot $1.50

Yeah, having that ring is why I figured it might be a "Panasonic" pot according to Best even though that's not their logo.

 

But, hey, If there is one thing to take away from this hobby its this:

 

If I wasn't thrifty / cheap, I'd never learn anything!

Although, some of it is due to necessity.

 

I almost enjoy repairing / hacking more than playing!

Tell me about it! This explains why I've spent more time looking for broken stuff than I do actually using it once repaired. I made an offer on two more junk controllers and put in a bid for another broken Atari 800XL last night and I haven't even received the 4021s I needed to fix my current 800XL yet! Just thought that I'm in good shape for tackling another since I have the shield off and all my chips are socketed.

[CZroe]

Oops: 4051s. I had NES controllers on the brain.

[CZroe]

Pics:

https://imgur.com/a/gDb9j

 

The good pots are fully cased in metal and do say "Made in Japan" on the stem side but I don't recognize the logo on the back (three solid triangles linked by the outline of a triangle). Did Panasonic/Matsushita ever use that logo? The "ring" they describe seems to refer to the spacer piece these pots have. Top side also has a number 2 that's probably just to note it's position in a simultaneously manufactured batch (one says "2" and the other says "4").

 

On the back both are marked "C018118-1-03" with the C018, 118, and -1-03 all being stamped with different fonts, font weights, alignment, depth, etc). Underneath the left side of that is a "33" with two different fonts, one for each digit (first 3 has a flat top). There is a spaced out semicircle 3 2 1 mark along the bottom, but those are just pin/terminal designations.

 

The bad pots have a metal casing on one side and a bare PCB on the other. There is a large opening near the terminals where you can see the wiper if you hold it sideways. They do not externally say where they were made. The backs are labeled "C018118-01 137/8649" in a semi-circle wrapping most of the way around. There is a small "CTS" marked above a small opening. On the stem side there is a CTS logo visible on the PCB with the top of the letter T stylized to extend over the letters on either side. I don't know this company either, but I'll wager that the C means California, Cupertino, or Component.

I updated the IMGUR gallery with some other pots that I received with more junk controllers on my lunch break. No opportunity to measure yet, but they have very limited turning radius and clearly state that they are Alps 500k JAPAN pots.

 

I looked up that triangle logo from the others and confirmed that it was, indeed, Panasonic/Matsushita. Unless some pots were switched around before I got my hands on them, it seems that Panasonic and Alps were both used in controllers with early Rev 7 mylars, but I would not agree with Best that Panasonic is "first-gen," especially since they had to be retrofitted with the pot ring to fit where the case is designed to fit the Alps and other pots.

 

No measurements yet. Lunch break is too short.

 

Oh! I also received and applied FaderLube F100D to the bad "CTS" pots from the NOS controllers with Rev 9 PCBs. No effect. Resistance is too low straight across the pots without even involving the wiper.

 

CTS pot 1:

 

CTS pot 2:

 

These are definitely bad.

Edited May 17, 2017 by CZroe

[CZroe]

I obtained some Alps pots from another junk controller lot. The are also made in Japan and they work great. The motion range is significantly shorter where they physically stop when they reach ~500k (right at the same point the joystick mechanism can physically turn the pots).

https://i.imgur.com/0tkgf6r.png

Edited May 23, 2017 by CZroe