mr_me Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Remember - Facebook did not actually have an issue with the images posted. The claims that were made to Facebook never mentioned anything about nudity, that was a made-up story by Cardillo after the fact to try to make his reasoning for his insanely stupid actions sound more justified. This was all because Cardillo is an egotistical control freak who wanted to control all the content being created on a system that he has zero rights to. The claims were completely erroneous and this goes all the way back to the first page of this thread where we can easily prove this was not about any "pornography" games that were made on the ColecoVision (because they aren't pornography to begin with, Cardillo keeps saying that for shock value, but really it's just #FakeNews) as this was about Cardillo wanting to get rid of homebrew publishers and fan sites that he couldn't control, or at least squash out the games he personally didn't like. There was no "nudity" or "pornography" in any way ever posted. DO NOT BE FOOLED! Is Facebook aware that those games predates RWB's claim on the trademark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Not all those games predate nor would Facebook care as they don't want to get involved in 3rd parties allegations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 Is Facebook aware that those games predates RWB's claim on the trademark? Facebook doesn't have the bandwidth to care, even if I pointed it out to them, and honestly I don't blame them. They probably get thousands of claims every day and they way their system is set up, they would prefer the individual parties to work things out between each other. And that is exactly what I attempted to do even before starting this thread, however Cardillo refused to retract the claims. Cardillo and Coleco know damn well their claims are false and unfair. But they were using their muscle as a "company" to file the claims with Facebook and since there is enough surface evidence for Facebook to remove the images (although not enough evidence that it would ever stand up in court because the claims are erroneous) and tell the parties to work it out between each other. Facebook agreed they would remove the claims from my page if Coleco agreed to retract them. This is why the thread is called "strong-arming" because as I said Cardillo ABSOLUTELY KNOWS his claims are erroneous. He will never actually admit to that, but he knows it. He can try to convince whoever he wants that his claims were justified, but HE KNOWS they were not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Tarzilla Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Really easy to summarize: RWB "rescues" a trademark they had no connection to, by use of "creative" USTO applications involving another person's work. CC tries to strong-arm licence fees (similar to how the current big 3 consoles require licences) out of the people that have kept the Coleco/ColecoVision name alive for 25 years. CC reacts with mafia-style bullying tactics and unjustified Facebook takedowns. CC effectively misunderstands the whole of retro gaming fandom and alienates the most knowledgeable set of potential customers. Proceeds with an retro gaming expo that minimizes the nostalgia and existence of its namesake. Youtube and website documentation of said Expo reveal true low level of attendee participation, CC exaggerates and claims success despite evidence to the contrary. to be continued... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 I find it hard to believe that RWB saw licensing homebrew cartridges as a source of revenue. They may have said otherwise during negotiations. What were they asking for? I thought I heard $1 a cartridge. They missed out on making hundreds of dollars. The key to their success or failure will be those tabletop games they are producing, and other stuff they can sell through retail stores. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 Really easy to summarize: RWB "rescues" a trademark they had no connection to, by use of "creative" USTO applications involving another person's work. CC tries to strong-arm licence fees (similar to how the current big 3 consoles require licences) out of the people that have kept the Coleco/ColecoVision name alive for 25 years. CC reacts with mafia-style bullying tactics and unjustified Facebook takedowns. CC effectively misunderstands the whole of retro gaming fandom and alienates the most knowledgeable set of potential customers. Proceeds with an retro gaming expo that minimizes the nostalgia and existence of its namesake. Youtube and website documentation of said Expo reveal true low level of attendee participation, CC exaggerates and claims success despite evidence to the contrary. to be continued... And much of the above conflict could have been avoided with some humble apologies and requests from the community to be better educated on the brand they own and know little about. I'm sure many of us, including myself, would have been happy to help them provided the result was a better community for us all. Sadly that ship has now sailed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Tarzilla Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 And much of the above conflict could have been avoided with some humble apologies and requests from the community to be better educated on the brand they own and know little about. I'm sure many of us, including myself, would have been happy to help them provided the result was a better community for us all. Sadly that ship has now sailed. Sailed, crashed into a reef, caught fire, sank, and eaten by a blue whale... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Cardillo isn't backing down on the claims he's already made, it he doesn't seem to be making any new ones. I sincerely hope I didn't give him any ideas by mentioning that. The best thing he could do is get RWB to drop their (legally dubious, wrong from where I sit) claims to the trademark and go back to pushing their other zombie brands. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 No need to drop their trademark claims unless someone challenges it, like sega did with zaxxon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted August 20, 2017 Author Share Posted August 20, 2017 Cardillo isn't backing down on the claims he's already made, Nope. Not at all. He's not the kind of guy to admit a mistake and apologize, even if it would actually made him a more respectable human. he doesn't seem to be making any new ones. I sincerely hope I didn't give him any ideas by mentioning that. I would really really hope he has learned his lesson and will leave the homebrew community alone to do what they are going to do. (and what they have been doing for 20 years) Many of them have already said they will not use the logos, and in the off chance a logo does pop up here or there, I'd like to believe that Cardillo now realizes it's not actually damaging and there isn't any money to be made from strong-arming any of the publishers, nor will it benefit or harm Coleco in any way by the logo being used on a very small run of a product specifically targeted to a niche group. The best thing he could do is get RWB to drop their (legally dubious, wrong from where I sit) claims to the trademark and go back to pushing their other zombie brands. I 100% agree with this as well. Should be interesting to see what they do in the coming months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 No need to drop their trademark claims unless someone challenges it, like sega did with zaxxon. Do you know/can you say more about this? Last I saw, RWB just grabbed it and claimed "finders keepers." Do we know for sure that Sega grabbed it back? I wonder if there would be legal ramifications for AtGames (I honestly hope not) or Coleco (now wouldn't that be a shame, heh) for including it in 2014‘s Colecovision Flashback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 (edited) That's between ATGames and Sega. That's a reason why you have to be carefull who you do business with. ATGames may think they did nothing wrong but they could get sued. All I know is that sega claimed zaxxon back. RWB doesn't back down easily, see this. http://propertyintangible.com/2008/07/who-owns-dead-mark-ask-river-west.html Edited August 20, 2017 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good_Times Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Daaammmmnnnn, this Cardillo person is apparently (?) one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse ffs, lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 That's between ATGames and Sega. That's a reason why you have to be carefull who you do business with. ATGames may think they did nothing wrong but they could get sued. All I know is that sega claimed zaxxon back. RWB doesn't back down easily, see this. http://propertyintangible.com/2008/07/who-owns-dead-mark-ask-river-west.htmlIf AtGames has smart lawyers, maybe they can pass the liability through to Coleco, who likely offered up the Zaxxon game. I got the sense that it was Intellivision Productions holding back IP for which there was no clean chain of custody from the Intellivision Flashback, not AtGames. There's probably not enough money in this for it to be worth anyone's while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Sailed, crashed into a reef, caught fire, sank, and eaten by a blue whale... And said Blue Whale coughed up a little wooden boy whose nose got big when he didn't tell the truth. He wished upon a star that his expo would be a success and homebrewers would sign license agreements but no cigar. In the end, he got transformed into a donkey I think. Been a few years since I seen it last... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 (edited) Well Intellivision Productions does own the software to burgertime, bumpnjump, locknchase, the trons, and dozens and dozens of other games. RWB doesn't own any of the software on the cv flashback. They could have put the Intellivision Imagic games on the flashback since there is nobody to sue them. But there is no need to, they have lots of other games to choose from. This a quote from the web site I referenced earlier and the smucker case. ----- 34. Indeed, RWB has admitted on its website and in numerous interviews to the press, that its business model is premised on deceiving the public as to the source and nature of new, unrelated goods sold in connection with famous brands. As RWBs own Founder and President, Paul W. Earle, Jr., admitted in an interview in 2004, you can uninstall software from a computer but you cant uninstall a brand name from someones head. ----- Edited August 20, 2017 by mr_me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 (edited) I find it hard to believe that RWB saw licensing homebrew cartridges as a source of revenue. They may have said otherwise during negotiations. What were they asking for? I thought I heard $1 a cartridge. They missed out on making hundreds of dollars. The key to their success or failure will be those tabletop games they are producing, and other stuff they can sell through retail stores. Trademarks only give protection for Good's and Service's listed under the trademark The licensing of home-brew cartridges was to hold onto the Trademark for its G&S under: Video game software The Super Game module licensing fight was to hold onto the Trademark for its G&S under video game machines for use with televisions This was very important after ATGames stop producing new CV chip consoles, and the failure of the RVS. Remember Coleco is cheap and doesn't want to risk it money investing in advertising or producing it own products with the risks of it not selling. Hard to tell if they will stick with their guns on tabletop games since a lot of tabletops haven't been successful from other companies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Coleco Holding has another company called Coleco Entertainment Corp in NJ Edited August 20, 2017 by enoofu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 I wonder why they don't put all their "holdings" together to make Dormitus Karts featuring Spuds McKenzie in Handspring World? Cross Colors to the Brim in a Cingular way! Oh yeah, I forgot -- they have no vision, talent, or reason to exist, and any of these can be snatched back from them if anyone cares enough to fight them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 The popularity of GameOn really took me by surprise. I regret not taking time off work to go there but I've definitely got my eye on next year, it's pretty much a done deal unless something big gets in the way. Yeah, even three years ago when it was in Mesa it was bigger than I expected. I prefer the Mesa location, but we took the light rail to the conv center so it wasn't too much of a problem, Plus, there is a bar at the eastbound light rail station on 3rd so you can get a beer while you wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retroillucid Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Yeah, even three years ago when it was in Mesa it was bigger than I expected. I prefer the Mesa location, but we took the light rail to the conv center so it wasn't too much of a problem, Plus, there is a bar at the eastbound light rail station on 3rd so you can get a beer while you wait! Agreed, I also prefered when it was in Mesa Although, I must admit, having more choices of restaurants, bars etc.. was alot more convenient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) Nope. Not at all. He's not the kind of guy to admit a mistake and apologize, even if it would actually made him a more respectable human. I would really really hope he has learned his lesson and will leave the homebrew community alone to do what they are going to do. (and what they have been doing for 20 years) Many of them have already said they will not use the logos, and in the off chance a logo does pop up here or there, I'd like to believe that Cardillo now realizes it's not actually damaging and there isn't any money to be made from strong-arming any of the publishers, nor will it benefit or harm Coleco in any way by the logo being used on a very small run of a product specifically targeted to a niche group. I 100% agree with this as well. Should be interesting to see what they do in the coming months. I have read that the more prominent Coleco-producing homebrewers are planning to avoid using the Coleco marks entirely. No more Rainbow ColecoVision on their boxes, just a a few generic lines of text like "Compatible with the ColecoVision Home Video Game System and Coleco Adam Home Computer System". But if everyone but RWB stops using the distinct trademarked ColecoVision logos, they may end up ceding everything to RWB. Edited August 21, 2017 by Great Hierophant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPR Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 But if everyone but RWB stops using the distinct trademarked ColecoVision logos, they may end up ceding everything to RWB. I guess the real question is - Does it even matter? Example: Hyperkin seems to have no problem selling their systems without any official Nintendo or Sega logos on the box, and I'm sure the upcoming Retron '77 won't have the Atari logo. But everyone that wants it knows what it is for and will buy it. Same thing goes for the Coleco community. None of those homebrewers NEED the logo on the box, they were just there because the idea behind the homebrew games wasn't to make a ton of money or to put a huge product line into a retail space, it was to pay homage to the system you were homebrewing for and in some fantasy-like world, pretend as though the system you're making games for is still just as relevant as it was 30 years ago, and nothing has changed, including the packaging for the games. Cardillo didn't understand this. He didn't understand that it wasn't about the money (because that's not how his brain works) and he didn't understand that there was zero damage to his brand by those homebrewers using the logos. All Cardillo has done by telling the homebrewers they can no longer use the logo, as they have been for 20 years, is create LESS awareness for his fake company. It was all free promotional material before. And now that's gone. Good job, Chris. Way to know how to guerilla market yourself. You DID graduate with bachelor's in marketing, right? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retroillucid Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 ....None of those homebrewers NEED the logo on the box, they were just there because the idea behind the homebrew games wasn't to make a ton of money or to put a huge product line into a retail space, it was to pay homage to the system you were homebrewing for and in some fantasy-like world, pretend as though the system you're making games for is still just as relevant as it was 30 years ago, and nothing has changed, including the packaging for the games. ^ THIS! ^ I couldn't say it better! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Daaammmmnnnn, this Cardillo person is apparently (?) one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse ffs, lol... IMG_3085.GIF Then I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, Coleco! I looked, and behold, there was a white horse. The one riding on it had a bow, and a trademark was given to him. He went out as a conqueror so he might conquer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) I have read that the more prominent Coleco-producing homebrewers are planning to avoid using the Coleco marks entirely. No more Rainbow ColecoVision on their boxes, just a a few generic lines of text like "Compatible with the ColecoVision Home Video Game System and Coleco Adam Home Computer System". But if everyone but RWB stops using the distinct trademarked ColecoVision logos, they may end up ceding everything to RWB. I agree with this. Unfortunately it will cost money and time to fight RWB over the trademarks. It's not worth it. From RWBs point of view they can't allow others to freely use the trademarks in order for RWB to establish ownership. They have to do what they are doing. Edit: Legalities aside, it is wrong for anyone to use those logos (depending on how it's used). It can give the impression that they were made by the original Coleco which is deceptive and wrong. Edited August 21, 2017 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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