The Knight Rider 2600 project

[Snider-man]

Then again, Thomas had a little something to back up his gag.

 

 

Will Knight Rider 2600 come out before Snider-Man's game?  

 

No hitting below the belt!

 

Ow! My groin! Actually I have something else classic-gaming-related on my plate right now. Any and all work (what little I have time to do) on TRD is hereby on hold until August. So there. Nyah.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

3. Yes, I'm a newbie programmer. Yes, I will ned help with coding.

What are your current coding skills? If you don't have some substantial background (Assembler?) there, I am afraid you won't be able to make it until 2006.

[Nukey Shay]

Thanx for all your input, guys and gals....Yes, the KR2600 effort is quite serious, and the Forum has raised some good points. 22 responses in 24 hours! Wow. I'm glad to see that the 2600 die hards are (mostly) looking forward to it.

Believe me, anything 2600-related is looked upon like a kibble just outside the cage of a pack of rabid wolves. So things get pretty ugly if it turns out to be just a marble.

[HardWork]

Thomas, I appreciate your level head. Let me explain this project in full, from its root inception.

1. The idea came to me in Dec, '02, when I was watching a KR tape (KITT vs. KARR) , and absently tapping on my 2600 TouchPad, while taking a break from arranging my classic console collection. A serious case of total recall flashed thru my brain, and my eyes rolled slowly down toward the Pad, and the Ancient brain cells awoke the 1983 wish to use this Pad with a bona-fide KR2600 title.

2. Work on the JoyPad began that day. It's complete, comfortable, & kinda ugly, but it works. The TouchPad fits in center of the "wheel" with Velcro, but is kinda useless at this point, save for the darling KITT overlay for inspiration.

3. I spent many a sweet summer day in those years, hacking BASIC code on the Apple II. Not too much since then, maybe a flirtation with VBASIC. In the past months I have been feverishly downloading How-To 6502 assemblers and such from sites like this one. I still have MUCH to learn, hence the tentative 2006 release date.

4. I am 29, a feverish KR fan, and of the entire Atari family. I have chosen the 2600 for many reasons that I will post later.

5. What I currently lack in 6502 know-how, I make up for with common sense. I know the limits of the 2600, and it's potential market of die-hards. I am humble in the precense of all whom have hacked 2600. I welcome the snippets of wisdom and cynicism, I don't intend to offend those who done great things. I stake my claim that this game MUST be built, the time to start is now, and if no one else would do it over 20 years, then I will do my damndest to create it, at great personal & financial sacrifice.

6. I have studied game design & history for 20 years. I have a good eye for quality. Over the past few months I have drafted this idea fully, trimming the impossible and boiling the core gameplay down to what should work, and what is needed for a great game experience.

7. The game itself is a mix of stunt driving, investigation, stealth tactics, fisticuffs, & puzzle pieces balanced to a countdown clock.

8. Yes, hacking the various gameplay kernels and Touch Pad routines, will be hella difficult to be done elegantly to fit a 4-8k ROM, but I am determined to do, or do not.

9. More later, Thanx everyone.

James "HardWork"

[sku_u]

7. I havecalculated that there could be anywhere between 3,000 and as many as 10,000 2600 owning KR fans that would support the cause. I will provide my methodologies in the next statement.

 

If this becomes a reality, Combat and Pac-Man will become a R1+ instead of R1

 

Why is this in the 2600 forum, btw

[Thomas Jentzsch]

3. I spent many a sweet summer day in those years, hacking BASIC code on the Apple II. Not too much since then, maybe a flirtation with VBASIC. In the past months I have been feverishly downloading How-To 6502 assemblers and such from sites like this one. I still have MUCH to learn, hence the tentative 2006 release date.

Without knowing much 650x Assembler I would suggest to start to code for the Atari 8 bits or the C64 first. They make it much to learn that language.

 

But you are not the first 2600 programmer to come from (V)BASIC. IIRC Brian Prescot (Crazy Valet, Vault Assault) also had only BASIC programming knowledge before starting to code for the 2600.

[moycon]

Thomas. You recently sold a GREAT game with a custom controller. Thrust +. A great game that you didn't have to pay extra to licence. Just out of curiousity, about how many of those have sold??

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Just out of curiousity, about how many of those have sold??

I don't know the exact numbers, maybe around 200.

[HardWork]

There is a fragile, narrow vector of opportunity here. Let's start with the business model:

1. In 1984, after the Great Crash, there were at least, what, 10 million 2600 units still in use in American homes. Most of these players were boys, ages 5-15.

2. At least half of that number of boys ages 5-15 tuned in weekly to Knight Rider, and much of those boys have grown to be men whom still consider KR to be the "best" 80's show.

3. Without boring everyone with math, let me say that today, there should be at least 5,000 die-hard 2600 users out ther who are still fond of the KR franchise. I cannot be alone here, when I say that I would whip out MY debit card in a flash to own a quality KR2600 title in a second, one that includes a sexy Joypad-TouchPad combo for under $100.

4. I am sure that if this project were reach mass production, it may create a very hot microcosm of activity in the "dead" 2600 market. I believe the the love of the 2600, and Knight Rider are intertwined in today's user base. I am not alone.

5. Again, the storyboards are finished. After (or when) the code is finished, I will quest for the license. No license? No problem. It gets a new name and a lower price. Either way, the concept will then get hawked out to venture capitolists to reach a 1,000 production quota.

6. Coming down to Earth, the long hours of studying disassembled games and 6502 methods has begun. (The pain, the pain, the PAIN of it all........)

7. Settling into the Stella community is my next concern. I know this can be a rough neiborhood, but I'd like to build a small home here...

[MegaManFan]

I don't know the exact numbers, maybe around 200.

 

AtariAge units (which I have one of), the Jah Fish debacle, or both?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

AtariAge units (which I have one of), the Jah Fish debacle, or both?

The total sales since 2000 (including Hozer).

[sku_u]

4. I am sure that if this project were reach mass production, it may create a very hot microcosm of activity in the "dead" 2600 market. I believe the the love of the 2600, and Knight Rider are intertwined in today's user base. I am not alone.

 

I love the Atari systems, but this is particular part is a pipe dream.

[+Andrew Davie]

1. Batches of 1,000 or more : This is the lowest production number that hits the balance of licensing fees and low production costs. Yes, the License must be arranged on a per-cart basis. Yes, some venture capitol will have to be raised for mass-produstion. I believe I have constructed a good gameplay dynamic with an excellent Joypad. When the prototype is finished, I believe the rest will be "easy", meaning that if you build, they will come.

3. Yes, I am new to this website. Yes, I'm a newbie programmer. Yes, I will ned help with coding. The prototype Jypad is finished, and I use it often with my 2600 Library.

6. Great twist on the Capt. Ahab speech!

 

 

You will be able to sell 100, maybe 200 units at most.

 

I think you should really try your hand at programming the '2600. If you haven't programmed *anything* before, then I think you should go and work on something else first, then come back to this in a few years. Nobody, but nobody, is going to produce a working '2600 game as their first ever program.

 

The ahab speech was my effort to point out that you have to be ever so slightly mad, and completely obsessed, to be able to program (yet alone complete) a '2600 title. Just wanting to do it isn't enough.

[MegaManFan]

The total sales since 2000 (including Hozer).

 

All total, pretty impressive to move 200 units of a homebrewed Atari game. Quick'n'dirty numbers: 200 units * $35 per = $7,000. Of course I don't know what the manufacturing and labor is though, nor could anybody make a living on it ($7,000 wouldn't even cover a year's worth of rent or house payments) but it's still an accomplishment worthy of recognition, as is the game itself.

[rasty]

All total, pretty impressive to move 200 units of a homebrewed Atari game.  Quick'n'dirty numbers: 200 units * $35 per = $7,000.

The normal royalty for each copy that goes to the author is $5... so 200*5 = $1000.. given you can sell 200 which is a high mark!

(and usually happens during a long period of time)

 

Regards,

Rasty.-

[moycon]

I guess my point in asking that is that Thomas is a great Atari programmer as is. His game has awesome (For the 2600) graphics. Is challenging, fun to play, awesome word of mouth, etc... Plus he is very much involved in the Atari community. That said.... 200 units were sold after how long??? I liked Knight Rider as a kid. I like Atari 2600. I wouldn't shell out even $60 for a Knight Rider Atari game regardless how fancy a controller it came with. Maybe as much as $25 without the controller (If it can be played without it it) I think anyone who says they can program an Atari game and they will sell at least 1,000 units is at the least over optimistic. Not to discourage anyone. But one should really should do some furthur research, and maybe get their feet wet before commiting to anything.

[MegaManFan]

The normal royalty for each copy that goes to the author is $5... so 200*5 = $1000.. given you can sell 200 which is a high mark!    

(and usually happens during a long period of time)

 

Regards,

Rasty.-

 

So that estimate is $30 of labor per carts and parts? I suppose that's about right. I suppose a programmer could shave off some of the loss by doing their own manufacturing, but then that's a big investment of labor time, product testing, distribution and (as we've seen in Andrew Davie's case) a recall if anything turns out wrong, tacking that expense on too. Pretty hard to come out ahead I guess, so you just have to program games like Thrust+ and Space Treat Deluxe for the love of it. At least the small profits might pay to buy some more games for your collection.

[Godzilla]

really makes you realize how SMALL this hobby is... (imho.)

 

The 2600 is, I would say, probably the largest hobby supported system, and should, mathematically, have thousands upon thousands who still play it. But it seems to me that a VERY small percentage of those thousands are even REMOTELY aware that anything came out for the 2600 in the mid to late EIGHTIES let alone NOW.... It really is a shame, but you know what they say, without advertising, a terrible thing happens... nothing. There is NOTHING to alert the masses to throbbing undercurrent of 2600 power, so it stays SMALLL.... (Imagine how much geometrically smaller all the other scenes are. Heck Ward Shrake with his excellent astrocade and emerson arcadia multicarts found out first hand just how much smaller everything else is than the 2600,) It also doesn't help that a large number of us, the faithful, feel most 2600 games should be dirt cheap becaue we are used to paying $.50c-$2 at flea markets (How quickly we forget how much these games originally cost...)

 

Just my two cents...

[rasty]

The normal royalty for each copy that goes to the author is $5... so 200*5 = $1000.. given you can sell 200 which is a high mark!    

(and usually happens during a long period of time)

So that estimate is $30 of labor per carts and parts? I suppose that's about right. I suppose a programmer could shave off some of the loss by doing their own manufacturing, but then that's a big investment of labor time, product testing, distribution and (as we've seen in Andrew Davie's case) a recall if anything turns out wrong, tacking that expense on too.

Yup.. Very few homebrewers have been able to produce and sell the carts all by themselves, and most of them only did an initial run and then either quit selling or started relying on someone to manufacture and sell the carts for them!

 

To add a layer of complexity, not only building/selling the carts is a time consuming task that also requires expertise, but it could be even not exactly cost-effective if you don't live in the US where the most of the carts are shipped...!

 

Pretty hard to come out ahead I guess, so you just have to program games like Thrust+ and Space Treat Deluxe for the love of it.

100% true

 

The money involved is more of a "cookie"!

 

Regards,

Fabrizio.-

[HardWork]

Keep the numbers coming, guys. This is feedback I've been looing for. If the Elders insist that only 200 copies can be sold, then I respect your judgemnet and will adjust the business model accordingly.

I make no bones about absolute numbers. I make no claims that a license will be possible. There is a dream over the best-case scenario, and moving 1,000 carts.

In the end, KR2600 may be unlicensed and carry an altered moniker. I have the resources and the soldering iron to produce 200 of the Joypads on my own, or as many requested from the die-hard gamers that want it.

I'm also pretty good at marketing my passions, and no holds are barred if I get the KR license. A dedicated Web page, links to popular KR sites, and an appearance at the 2006 Classic Games Expo will provide avenues to move plenty of units.

It's a helluva dream, I know, and I may be slightly mad. But my knuckles are already bloody, and I like the taste of sweat and tears.

Thanx for the input,

James "HardWork"

[sku_u]

Why don't you program the game first, then start worrying about distribution figures.

 

Maybe you could do what adavie suggested and start simple (like a graphics hack maybe) then return to the Knight Rider idea a few years down the road. I just started trying to program for the Atari (if you count playing around with Magicard as programing) and have only been able to make a few very simple programs, and I have a background in basic. Trust me, it's not easy. That's why the few who are able to do it are so respected for what they do for this hobby.

 

In the mean time, stick around Atariage. There are many knowledgeable people here, a wealth of knowledge and lots of fun to be had.

[Nukey Shay]

Or while you are trying to learn M/L, give a conversion project a whirl (take a game made for the Atari800 and make it playable on the 5200). The 5200 owners are just as rabid to see new releases for that beast, and a source code is almost interchangable between the two systems (besides the I/O and Ram issues). While working on that, you'll gain valuable hands-on M/L experience...and have a marketable product as well.

[Nukey Shay]

Or while you are trying to learn M/L, give a conversion project a whirl (take a game made for the Atari800 and make it playable on the 5200). The 5200 owners are just as rabid to see new releases for that beast, and a source code is almost interchangable between the two systems (besides the I/O and Ram issues). While working on that, you'll gain valuable hands-on M/L experience...and have a marketable product as well.

[HardWork]

Projecting the sales of this game is necessary, to obtain the license. Please excuse the focus here, but when the holders of the License are approached with terms, I must give them a complete business model.

(1.) The KR2600 cartridge should be sold on its own for a resonable $20-$25, and include the KITT overlay. (produced by a third party)

(2.) The custom Joypad should also go for about $20-$25 by itslef. (produced by a third party)

(3.)2600 TouchPads will be available for those that don't own one and wish to obtain the complete package, for $5-$10. (obtained in the field, tested and cleaned)

(4.) The consumer can mix and match, and a complete (including cartridge, Joypad, TouchPad, & overlay) LICENSED package will cost between $50-$70, (produced by a third party) not counting taxes or international shipping.

(5.) If the Knight Rider license cannot be obtained, then the carts (third party, smaller batches) could be sold at a lower rate. The Joypad would be assembled by my small homebrewed team, and also be sold at a lower rate.

(6.) OK, that's enough of that. As for the game coding itself, it's still in it's infancy, and should take about two or three years to finish.

(7.) The graphics will not be fancy. I favor good gameplay over graphics, the visuals will be atypical 2600 fare. The audio will also be sparse, but effective. It helps that the common sounds from the KR tv show are touch-tones, beeps & blips.

(8.) The game will feature some text, and this aspect may be expanded if the routines and memory permit.

(9.) I will provide a complete description of the design document in a future posting. In the meantime, I will post a simple draft of the custom Joypad & KITT overlay.

Thanx,

James "HardWork"[/img]

[+Nathan Strum]

There's something else you may not be factoring into this whole thing.

 

Even if you can obtain the license, learn to code for the 2600, learn to code well for the 2600, finish the game, and get it produced... there are people who may not have any interest in a Knight Rider game. In fact, it could turn potential buyers off who didn't like the show.

 

Just some food for thought there. If 200 copies is the high-end of sales for a homebrew game, you shouldn't count on being able to hit that mark. It's nice to be optimistic, but it's important to be realistic.

 

Regarding licensing:

 

I think you'd do better to create the game first, and put all of your effort into what's going to require the most work. Then, when you have a working game that you're satisfied with as a Knight Rider fan, and that has enough solid play (and replay) value so that there's a buzz in the 2600 community about it, then approach Universal about the licensing.

 

Here's why - I licensed a TV property about 7 years ago, in order to produce a limited run of T-shirts (about 120) with the show's logo on it for a usenet group. Since I already had lined up the T-shirt manufacturer, had a finished design, and knew in advance about how many I would sell, I was able to swing a very reasonable licensing deal. In this case, it was a percentage of the sale price per unit, plus a number of samples of the item to the licensor. That was it. They knew it wasn't going to be a mass-merhcandised item, or that it would generate any significant income for them. They were more concerned that it would be up to their standards of quality, and "wouldn't mind" it being a licensed item, rather than being something that they'd be making money from.

 

So, if you approach it from that standpoint - "here's what I've got, Atari users are interested in buying it, I won't be making very much from it since it's a labor of love, could I license the show name for a couple of hundred copies?" - and already have the product to show them, I think you'd stand a better chance of a good licensing deal. If it's all completely speculative (and until you have working game code - that's what it is), I doubt you'd get in the door, and that might discourage you from doing the hard work - the programming. By making the game first - if worse came to worse and you couldn't license the name - you'd have the game finished the way you wanted it, and would just simply need to change the name.

 

I'd suggest removing the 'K'.