709 replies to this topic

[Paul Slocum]

HardWork said:

The first (complete) build of the KR code is to be hacked on the Atari 800, so it may skip the 2600 altogether and be published for the 800 friendly, KeyPad equipped 5200.

Ah, then perhaps this should be moved to the 5200 forum.

-Paul

[NovaXpress]

Come on guys . . .

THIS IS A TROLL LET'S STOP WASTING OUR TIME. It's a ridiculous project that would never get a license even if the game was produced. Suddenly it's now "we" not "I" who is working on the game. The story keeps changing. It all reminds me of the Airwold hoax of a few months ago. This is all the work of a troll who wants to see how long he can keep the thread going.

Now Paul Slocum's RPG for the 2600, that's intriguing. That's a real project by a proven programmer. Let's all take a look at that thread now.

[HardWork]

Thanx for your positive comments, Vanguard!  But please don't underestimate my team's energy to build the game, and please know that we have strong backgrounds in mathematics & game theory. Also, I didn't realize that you were the holder of KR license!
We are dedicated to hacking this thing, and also know that I have many clever angles at approaching the KR license, and will exhaust them all before I simply "Forget It."
And that goes for all the nay-sayers out there, (cough,Andrew,ahem) who are quick to say that It Can't Be Done.
Thanx everyone, all feedback is welcome...
James "HardWork," for all the Savage staff

[Vanguard]

Actually, I do know, and have worked with, the people you will need to be getting a license from. And, I'm telling you unequivocally, it's not going to happen. Your total possible profit, on all the platforms you're discussing, won't cut the legal fees for the license involved.

I dub thy project 'foolish' and thy time 'wasted', and thy attitude 'amateur'. At best, you're incredibly ignorant of what you're getting into. At worst, you're a troll.

Show us a working demo or something someday. Until then, you're blowing hot air.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

HardWork said:

Thanx everyone, all feedback is welcome...

Before worrying about licensing you should really start programming. Then come back with some demo and everybody will find it much easier to believe you.

And that's my last word.

[HardWork]

OK, last post for the day:
The game might be posted in the 5200 forum, but the code will get rewritten a few times as it mutates to the 2600 environment. The 2600 audience is still the target, but we'll see how it goes, the whole thing is still early.
I have clearly stated from the first post that I'm new to the 2600, but not to hacking. I'm warm to BASIC programming, and I'm no dummy. Also, I've had two guys jump on board this last week. One is a good friend of mine of 10 years, who was the first to know of KR2600, at the New Year.  The other fellow I met by chance, whom works at the print shop where I have been producing my storyboards.  These guys are no dummies, either.  
Both have pledged full support after absorbing the content of my early work, & the content of this site. This week we have formed the Team, christened it with the "Savage" name, and have gotten little sleep since then.
Thanx, everyone.
James

[Nukey Shay]

Well, you've certianly got your work cut out   I'm not sure, but I think that a "port" of a game moved to the 2600 is pretty much a total rewrite.  If you are determined, try not to lean on the 5200's capabilities too heavily for anything that is essential to the game in both incarnations.

[NovaXpress]

As someone who has ACTUALLY done business with entertainment companies over issues such as licensing, I know whereof I speak. I say the following not for the Knight Rider Troll who continues to be completely full of shit ("warm to Basic" my ass-have fun writing the kernel), but for any others out there who might honestly want to license a pop culture product.

KNOW THE PRODUCT AND THE COMPANY'S EXPECTATIONS
Knight Rider, like Galactica and A-Team and other 80s shows are a very hot product right now. Nostalgia is big and any one of these shows may become a viable commerical product once again. Fox almost certainly has a ressurected Knight Rider already on the drawing boards. If such project moves forward they will certainly want to license a game to a REAL manufacturer on moneymaking systems such as the PS2. Such a deal would demand exclusivity for video game consoles. Even a small scale 2600 run could ruin the chances of Fox to sell the property for millions. Licensers pay for exclusivity. Activision won't pay as much for a Knight Rider game when someone else is already floating cartriges around.

REALIZE THAT THE MEDIA COMPANY DOESN'T NEED YOU
Every single day the creators of pop culture hits receive countless suggestions for products and offers from people with no experience whatsoever. These offers are destroyed without being read. They only want to hear from proven companies with a track record of profitability. The company wants only two things out of a licensing deal: to make money and to promote the product in order to make more money. A 2600 game would provide neither. Those in the 2600 community who are in a position to know have stated that any sales over 200 or so is a pipe dream. So the profits for a studio would be non-existent. The promotional value would be negligible, they want to reach hundreds of thousands at minimum, not a few hundred on the AtariAge board.

LICENSING COSTS MONEY
For the studio! Fox won't touch a licensing deal until they've paid tens (up to hundreds) of thousands in legal fees for their attorneys to scan the deal. If your offer isn't promising enough profit to even cover said fees, the studio would be stupid to even bother. The studios may often be dumb artistic-wise, but never on issues of business.

The bottom line: if you want to make games for defuct systems then forget the licensing and just make a good game. I really don't think that THRUST would have sold any better if it had been called "Battlestar Galactica."

[Paul Slocum]

NovaXpress said:

Fox almost certainly has a ressurected Knight Rider already on the drawing boards.

Something like this?

http://www.eonline.c...,1,9681,00.html

[NovaXpress]

Nice looking out Paul! I figured that it had to be in the works. By the way, when you have an announcement I take it seriously. Can't wait for the RPG.

Hey Paul, why don't you get the Conan license for it! Yeah that'll work out as well as the Knight Rider project!

[Andrew Davie]

HardWork said:

[snip/snip]
We are dedicated to hacking this thing, and also know that I have many clever angles at approaching the KR license, and will exhaust them all before I simply "Forget It."  
And that goes for all the nay-sayers out there, (cough,Andrew,ahem) who are quick to say that It Can't Be Done.

I don't think I said it can't be done.  I said you can't do it.  Different things.

In any case, I'm interested in working on some sort of Programming for Newbies forum, where we walk through the steps of developing on the '2600.  Perhaps you can join up, if that happens, and you will one day be able to laugh at your approach/proposal, too.

Nothing personal intended, but your approach is just so misguided as to be actually quite entertaining.  I just wish I could bet some money on this project not happening.

Cheers
A

[moycon]

Put me down for $100 when you place that bet Andrew.

Still your offer to help out people interested in programming for the 2600 is an awesome statement.

You are...as they say.... the poop. (Do they still say that??)

[NovaXpress]

I belive in this idea now! Didn't you all see that he's now getting help from a print shop employee? That's exactly what every 2600 programming project requires, help from the Kinko's guy!

A Newbie programmer's forum or document or whatever would be a nice idea. It would scare off almost anyone who thinks of taking on such a project. Those who still want to go forward would be worthy of help.

[Simon]

This is my last post to this topic...

HardWork said:

Both have pledged full support after absorbing the content of my early work, & the content of this site. This week we have formed the Team, christened it with the "Savage" name, and have gotten little sleep since then.

Wow, having a team-name is one of the most important things. It's indeed of bigger importance than actually knowing about programming the 2600.  [/irony]



+++ no carrier

[Snider-man]

Quote

You are...as they say.... the poop.

Uh....did Moycon just call AD "poop?"

Back to the subject at hand. Gotta be a troll because - even if a naive newbie - no one would hold onto a delusion this long after being soundly corrected by the core 2600 programmers working today. No programming underway - not even a basic understanding of how a kernel would work. Sounds a lot like where we were with Idea Revolutions some months back.

And if he thinks Fox would allow ANY work to be done, let alone completed, on the theme of one of their properties, he's got another thing coming.... Anyone remember my "Futurama for the 2600" project and the letter Fox kindly sent me?

[Vanguard]

Did they say 'Bite My Shiny Metal Ass'?

[MegaManFan]

Snider-man said:

And if he thinks Fox would allow ANY work to be done, let alone completed, on the theme of one of their properties, he's got another thing coming.... Anyone remember my "Futurama for the 2600" project and the letter Fox kindly sent me?

Yup.  Fox, 21st Century dicks with 20th Century monopolies.

[Inky]

Feh.  Anymore, if I have an idea, I implement it in gamemaker and play it on my PC until my heart's content.

I'm done with Graphics Hacks...

[HardWork]

Whew! It's getting warm in here! NovaXpress, I appreciate your passion.  Let's examine the license coup again:

1.) Savage does not intend to pursue the License until the game is finished, and there is a product to demo.  This will take up to 3 years to become a reality, and all that exists of it today are extensive storyboards, gameplay theories, and experimental bits of code. As gloriously illustrated in this thread, it may never be finished.

2.) You are correct on the Knight Rider ressurection. I'ts likley to be a motion picture, ready for release sometime in the next two years.

3.) I have never stated that the KR2600 license would be an exclusive one, that blocks out other publishers. Remember that franchise licensing is a tree with many, many branches that lead to various end products, especially on game consoles.  

4.) Lord Of The Rings, anyone? Or Tetris? Using LOTR as a loose example, the property exists in (two examples) book and movie form, and both media were licensed seperately.  The Knight Rider TV and Motion Picture licenses are different animals, and in theory, products could branch from these two sources indefinitley. We could see two KR games on the PS3, that are sublicensed for Xbox2 and (Gamesphere?), one on the GBA, one for the PC, one for the Mac, one for the Tiger handhelds, at least one for the Wireless, one for the Card Game, one for games on the official Web site, the wristwatch & keychain games, etc. etc., and yes, it's possible, (not probable) that one of the dozen license holders might be swayed to sub-license thier rights to the "hobby" market, after thier initial run of product has enjoyed its 90 days of peak sales, and has cooled down.

5.) Yes, money must be made, I won't argue that point.  I never said it would be easy to grab any rights whatsoever.  Maybe you have to love Knight Rider to understand, that to hundreds of thousands of people, the franchise touches us on a personal level much like the original Star Trek did with many during the 70's and 80's.  It's personal, integral, inspiring, bonding, imaginative and fascinating to the core. If you can't relate, then you probably don't want our game.  

6.) What does this geeky pledge have to do with anything? I'll say that somewhere in the sea of future KR game licenses, someone whom will hold one of these licenses will be just as pleased with our game as we are, and may grant rights to a sub-license, and legal mumbo-jumbo to make room for a new "hobbyist" branch, after thier product is in the bargain bin. Call us insane, but we are rock-solid sure that there are at least 500 of Us out there, and maybe 1,000, Die-hard KR fans whom wanted this game 20 years ago, and would make the $70 pilgrimage to own it. Maybe we're wrong, but hey.  Time, and creative marketing will tell.

7.) As stated before, the Savage staff are capable guys.  My friend doesn't work at Kinko's, he is part owner & technical support of a local print shop.  He specializes in C+ and Assembly, a great KR and 2600 fan, and has brewed a great faith in the project as our friendship established over the Storyboards.  The other fellow, a friend from the old school, is also a huge KR fan, & he's quite brilliant with math.  I'm the game's designer & visionary. Creating the Team, and establishing our (temporary) name has only inspired us to work harder.

8.) Andrew, I really do respect your experience in this field.  And you may be right when stating that this project is too ambitious for the 2600.
It seems that the parent enviornment (the 800) is easier to hack for, and the transition to the 5200 is seeming more likley. We would still like to write it for the 2600, but MUCH work still must be done.

9.) Having said that, Please allow 2 - 3 years for delivery.  We're working on it.

Thanx everyone,
James "HardWork" for the Savage Team

[The MilkMan]

Well, in the mean time, there's always this...

http://www.rathergood.com/knightrider/

[Nukey Shay]

Page won't load right for me

[NovaXpress]

Okay, once more. Again, this post is not meant to hold value for the Troll but for others who might be decieved into thinking that he has a clue.

The reason that Lord of the Rings has two different licenses is that when JRR Tolkien himself sold the rights to the movie back in the 60s, he specified that the studio would not control the book. The movie license continued to be renewed until Peter Jackson finally created his masterpiece. Because Tolkien held the original copyright he was able to specify that the movie license would be separate. After much legal wrangling, the courts decided that New Line and Tolkien's estate would be able to license properties separately. OK, got that?

After George Lucas recieved merchandising rights for Star Wars in 1977 and 20th Century Fox saw how much money they passed on, everything changed. Now movie studios insist on full merchandising rights. Not even Spielberg gets the rights to his non-Dreamworks movies. Again, after Star Wars all movie studios have insisted on full merchandising rights. If Lord of the Rings was signed today, the studio would insist on full rights. Still with me?

Knight Rider is 100% owned and developed by Fox. There is no chance of splitting the license. There is nothing to split, it all belongs to Fox. Does this make any sense? And by the way, did you know all of this information before? You must have because you say you have a full business plan, so you must have studied case histories of licenses right?

Oh yes, from your posts I see that you are not only ignorant, but insist on remaining so.

Let's go on, yes just try to get another video game company to "pass on" the rights. They don't have the ability to, the studio still controls the license. And why the hell would they? Realize that no one outside of the 2600 community gives a damn about it and that no one cares about us because we're too small in number. Go ahead and ask EA if you can make a Sims 2600. They'll love it.

A pipe dream is to sell 1000 cartriges. For a gross profit of about $70000. Fox would spend $70000 just on legal fees to sign a licensing deal, so no profits are possible. Fox doesn't give a damn about 1000 fans, they can sell the same license to Activision and get the same 1000 fans plus 2 million more. The Atari community has no mainstream pormotional value. A fully-licensed Garfield cart was released not long ago. I don't recall any newspaper articles or attention outside of the community. Garfield sold tens of millions of books yet the only ones who bought the cart were the same couple hundred 2600 loyalists. No one else cares.

If you don't understand these issues then you are too stupid to play a video game, let alone create one.

Okay, there's today's lesson in the reality of licensing. Enterprising programmers may still acquire licenses from small, independent copyright holders. I think Paul Slocum already figured that out. Don't even bother with the Big Seven media companies: Fox, Disney, AOL Warner, Viacom, Bertelsmann, Vivendi Universal and Sony.

We gotta find out who holds those Captain Kangaroo rights.

[Nukey Shay]

CBS, I believe

[sku_u]

NovaXpress said:

Okay, once more. Again, this post is not meant to hold value for the Troll but for others who might be decieved into thinking that he has a clue.

If you think this guy's such a TROLL, why do you keep bumping this thread back to the top every few hours or so?

HardWork=NovaExpress  

[HardWork]

Novaxpress, I'm not trying to spar with you, but you're missing the point.

1.) The "license" we hope to coup would be little more than "permission" to use the Knight Rider name on the finished product, not as a money-maker.  I have posted many times that the KR2600 title will not generate a lot of revenue, and will be lucky to break even on the token cost of "permission" that we're willing to pay, in respect to the number of carts produced. 1,000 is the number of carts and Joypads we're shooting for, to offset the cost licensing, production, marketing, shipping, & customer service.

2.) I didn't say that a licensed 3rd party would have absolute control to grant a sub-license. I said that a 3rd party may share our fondness for the product enough to task thier legal dept. to secure a sub-license for the "Hobby" market. This is entirely possible, but not probable, as said before.

4.) The current KR franchise is based on the TV program. If/When a motion picture is published, you can bet that it's two KR properties will be marketed as different entites in various media. Let's say that the Knight Rider property becomes a searing, red-hot cash cow circa 2005. (It won't, but stick with me.) As you mentioned, the Studio likes to make money, and I'm sure that that the Studio would be quick to license the TV & Movie rights seperatley to game developers, if the demand were there. That ultra-high demand probably won't exist, alas. (The TV video game rights are currently held.) My mention of LOTR is an illustration of how a hot property can be whored out though the gamut of media, once rights are secured by 3rd parties.

5.) As posted earlier, the hard-core fondness for KR and the 2600 are quite intertwined in the souls of our target audience. That's just one reason we're hoping to squeeze it onto the VCS.  You probably weren't "feeling" that magical VCS/KR attachment in '83, so I don't expect you, Nova, to understand our motivation.

6.) Knight Rider is one of the few intellectual properties that could make a splash in the current 2600 user base.  If Star Wars never made a 2600 appearance in its time, don't you think (today's user base) would be excited now, if such a game were coming? I think so. There are people (KR geeks ages 25-40) who do care, and I'm convinced we can reach 500-1,000 of them through a bevy of innovative marketing tactics.

7.) I still dig Garfield as much as ever, but I don't remember chatting excitedly with my 1983 buds about the possibility of a 2600 game. A copy of Pac-Man Arcade would be OK, and that's one game we did chat about at the time, next to KR2600.

8.) I never claimed to be either a lawyer, or an acccomplished businessman in entertainment media.  I am a passionate game player, collector, historian, & designer. Most everyone who is registered at AtariAge.com can relate to this hobby on those levels. I'm sure in that respect, we're more alike than disalike. (Have you played Vectrex today?)

9.) Maybe we should have named ourselves Troll, instead of Savage! Bwa-ha-ha!!   Hey, I don't blame folks for doubting the end result, given the thin, fragile vector of destiny we tread. Give us the time & room to do our work. There's a lot on our plate right now, & I have better things to today do than argue with schoolyard bullies over legal jargon. I'm quite tired of discussing licensing, though it's a necessary evil, part of the (still maturing) Business Plan, and I would be much more interested in discussing issues related to the Game itself.

10.) I'm starting to like you, Nova, just for your passions alone.   .

All comments and sugestions are welcome, of course.
Thanx everyone,
James "HardWork" for the Savage Team