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#51 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:05 PM

OK: So you asked for PAL testing to be done, but I'm still not sure from all that if it was or not. Take-away point is this: Murphy's Law (or perhaps Sod's Law in this case) dictates that nothing works until you see it working on real hardware, regardless of whether the source code looks like it will work or even if it works in emulation.

 

Thanks for the answer though.

 

"Secretum Labyrinth King Gold" and "Delta Space Arena" had been posted and no one yet reported an issue with running this game on PAL. "Amok Bots", "Megaoids 2016", and "Laser Blast X" are being sold to people in the United States Europe, and Australia, no one reported anything. I know the timing is a little different that may affect DLI changes if you do not use WYSNC. If there are several register changes, you can see part of the next pixel line still set to the prior register value. With player/missile multiplexing, you may see a short pixel line flicker on rare occasions. I manage to reduce that effect by making the sprite behave as it were an extra pixel taller to reduce this small problem. It is not like a big blob of garbage suddenly appears when playing a game on PAL that is not visible on NTSC.


Edited by peteym5, Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:06 PM.


#52 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:08 PM

Some of the best Atari versions of games have been built on "graphics 7" ....

Starraiders, Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp! , Space Harrier....

Particular Space Harrier should make people "drop the penny" ;) and to see the possible stuff.
Fullscreen action, clean digis, rather complex "DLI" colour animations ... and so on.

For games like Out Run this could result in a more playable game than even the Amiga version is. ( Yes , I know, the Amiga could do even better) ...

 

Surround'Em will be using a grahpics 7 screen and double resolution player/missile graphics. A new video will be posted soon. 



#53 kiwilove OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:39 PM

Some of the best Atari versions of games have been built on "graphics 7" ....

Starraiders, Rescue on Fractalus, Yoomp! , Space Harrier....

Particular Space Harrier should make people "drop the penny" ;) and to see the possible stuff.
Fullscreen action, clean digis, rather complex "DLI" colour animations ... and so on.

For games like Out Run this could result in a more playable game than even the Amiga version is. ( Yes , I know, the Amiga could do even better) ...

 

I'm not a fan of Graphics 7 - but Rescue on Fractalus would be the best example of it in use, then Star Raiders...

 

For a light cycle type game done in Gr.7 - I would suggest doing some extra animation to help dress it up?  Like a spark effect when drawing - possibly a little fade (if possible?) - and add other animations - if possible?  ie. via PMG.

 

A little (and I mean little -or fleetingly) extra colour could be present too.. via PMG.  I'm not that happy when it does look exactly like a 2600 game - and it's on the A8 hardware.

But it's always up to the people involved with their projects - what route they'll take with it and how they do it.  It's always their choice what they do and how to do it...

 

As long as the end result is something rather nice - that is all that really matters.

 

Harvey



#54 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:49 PM

As long as the end result is something rather nice - that is all that really matters.


Ofcourse.

But in reality , Games don't get finished by wrong aimed goals.
In other words, complete genres were missing caused by wrong "route decisions"...

#55 flashjazzcat OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:57 PM

 

"Secretum Labyrinth King Gold" and "Delta Space Arena" had been posted and no one yet reported an issue with running this game on PAL. "Amok Bots", "Megaoids 2016", and "Laser Blast X" are being sold to people in the United States Europe, and Australia, no one reported anything. I know the timing is a little different that may affect DLI changes if you do not use WYSNC. If there are several register changes, you can see part of the next pixel line still set to the prior register value. With player/missile multiplexing, you may see a short pixel line flicker on rare occasions. I manage to reduce that effect by making the sprite behave as it were an extra pixel taller to reduce this small problem. It is not like a big blob of garbage suddenly appears when playing a game on PAL that is not visible on NTSC.

 

Yeah: I understand. My point is that if there is an issue which goes undiscovered during testing, the sales model (committing code to EPROMs and not permitting in-field updates) means that there's no way to fix it ex post. So it's doubly important that everything gets tested on PAL hardware prior to sale. See my reasoning?



#56 shanti77 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:58 PM

All the other games that run on 16K cartridge use the Atari OS NMI and use the Immediate VBI vector, do a check to make sure the game runs the same speed on both NTSC and PAL.


How you make the same speed on NTSC and PAL? I think the NTSC version will be little faster.

#57 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:19 PM

How you make the same speed on NTSC and PAL? I think the NTSC version will be little faster.

There is a PAL register in ANTIC;  PAL = $D014 . There are several tricks. One is to create a countdown the goes from 5 to 0, when it reaches 0, it holds the game VBI game one frame. (If NTSC). If PAL, the count is ignored.

Second is simply take the 3 low bits of RTCLOK: LDA RTCLOK and do AND #$07. If 0, delay. Slows down 1/8th frame, close to same is PAL.


Edited by peteym5, Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:37 PM.


#58 shanti77 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:44 PM

I try similar method in fullscreen scroll, but in this case it looks terrible.

#59 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:17 AM

 

Yeah: I understand. My point is that if there is an issue which goes undiscovered during testing, the sales model (committing code to EPROMs and not permitting in-field updates) means that there's no way to fix it ex post. So it's doubly important that everything gets tested on PAL hardware prior to sale. See my reasoning?

 

We are certainly not going to send out a completed copy of these games to anyone who just has a screen name here on the forums. I do not know their real name or where they're from. If that person distributes them, that makes it difficult to pursue any type of legal action. Plus the problems going over international borders and deal with the laws of different countries. When someone asks if they can beta test, first thing I ask is their email address, full name and address, and phone #. Video61 wants to put people under non-disclosure. Almost all of them freak out and I never hear from them. I let you make your own conclusion from that. Just to let everyone, I am in the security business. 

 

I also tried the beta-demo test model with "Delta Space Arena" and "Secretum Labyrith" that had a limited number of levels, rooms, screens, etc.  I started public here on the main forum, then moved it to a limited number of testers in private messenger. They did help me catch many more issues and I got those games working. There is also a demo of Tempest Xtreme floating around. 

 

That version of Tempest Xtreme Pro Wizard received was a version of the Atari Max version that was modified to make sure certain values do not get written for bank switching that opens up for flashing. I believe you send it a $55 to open, and $AA to finalize the write. I just had STA $D500 + bank number without loading a value in A register first. Only 5 of those were made and not all been sold.   


Edited by peteym5, Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:33 AM.


#60 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:19 PM

Ofcourse.

But in reality , Games don't get finished by wrong aimed goals.
In other words, complete genres were missing caused by wrong "route decisions"...

I had ideals for this Antic 13 and Antic 14 mixing with LMS tricks for years to generate the illusions of hills going while driving down the road. I tried something with Basic but using Antic 4 and Antic 5 character modes many years ago. Looked like crap. May be something I need another talented programmer to help me put it together. I am busy with several projects right now, doing 5200 ports, resurrecting Jungle Quest, and a sequel to Secretum Labyrinth. I decided to go forward with these projects despite of some recent events. My current model is not to start up anything new until what you have in production has been completed, debugged and tested, and ready to be sold.

 

Klax looks very simple and straight forward. Surprised no one did that game in Compiled Turbo Basic. Maybe its something that can be done in GTIA 10 or SuperIRG mode to get all those colors. Did you guys try posting in the MAD PASCAL programming section, because that is something that can be done in that language also. If someone else did Klax instead of me, and let other people download it, sold on floppy, or as a digital download, I will not object, my plate is full.


Edited by peteym5, Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:43 PM.


#61 emkay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:21 PM

I had ideals for this Antic 13 and Antic 14 mixing with LMS tricks for years to generate the illusions of hills going down. I tried something with Basic but using Antic 4 and Antic 5 character modes many years ago. Looked like crap.


If you post the results, the mistake might be obvious?

#62 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:01 PM

If you post the results, the mistake might be obvious?

I tried this in Turbo Basic XL, and lost the source code a long time ago. Disks were thrown out after I moved out of my parents house many years ago. When I decided to get back into the Atari, I could never find the disks.


Edited by peteym5, Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:11 PM.


#63 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:38 PM

Good thing we're all in the security business these days... ;)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1114740/



#64 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:40 PM

Good job Paul, sorry, I mean Pete :)



#65 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:17 AM

Good thing we're all in the security business these days... ;)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1114740/

 

 

Good job Paul, sorry, I mean Pete :)

 

Very Funny, I worked for many places, including shopping mall recently. When someone asked if Paul Blart worked there, my reply was "No, because you did not put in your application yet."  When a disruptive individual needs to be removed, the thought of telling them "No Mall for You!" frequently crossed my mind. I've seen a lot of people get busted for shop lifting and we are amused when we see someone leave in a police car.


Edited by peteym5, Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:57 AM.


#66 Atari PAC-MAN Fan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:26 AM

I would love to see someone try to make Lode Runner for Atari 2600. It doesn't have to have all the levels. Or maybe an Atari 2600 port of Choplifter?



#67 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:25 AM

I would love to see someone try to make Lode Runner for Atari 2600. It doesn't have to have all the levels. Or maybe an Atari 2600 port of Choplifter?

No one never made Lode Runner for the 2600? May be difficult, needs 160 or 320 wide pixel mode to make that playfield. Can it be done in the 2600s 80 pixel wide field and 2 sprites + 2 missiles?



#68 Atari PAC-MAN Fan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:59 AM

No one never made Lode Runner for the 2600? May be difficult, needs 160 or 320 wide pixel mode to make that playfield. Can it be done in the 2600s 80 pixel wide field and 2 sprites + 2 missiles?

 

I believe the Apple II, Atari 8-bit, and C64 versions use 10 x 10 tiles. The VIC-20 and ZX Spectrum versions used 8 x 8 for a smaller screen size. It might be challenging depending on how accurate you want to be, but I think you could pull off a decent version.

 

Here's a mock-up that I found on AtariAge post-17716-1201822002.gif


Edited by Atari PAC-MAN Fan, Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:04 PM.


#69 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:34 PM

Pete...

Frame dropping... how do you make sure that action don't stops? Moving player from left to right means every 8th frame it stands still?

#70 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:45 PM

Pete...

Frame dropping... how do you make sure that action don't stops? Moving player from left to right means every 8th frame it stands still?

Everything is paused 1/6th or 1/8th frame depending on which delay technique used. But honestly I don't really noticed things going smooth and stopping every so often. Most of the stuff moves one pixel at a time. Standard Theater Movie is 24 frames per second and even that is above human perception. I had Turbo Basic games running around 15 frames per second, that is when I notice things start acting choppy.


Edited by peteym5, Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:48 PM.


#71 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:51 PM

 

I believe the Apple II, Atari 8-bit, and C64 versions use 10 x 10 tiles. The VIC-20 and ZX Spectrum versions used 8 x 8 for a smaller screen size. It might be challenging depending on how accurate you want to be, but I think you could pull off a decent version.

 

Here's a mock-up that I found on AtariAge post-17716-1201822002.gif

Hey looks good, I am staying away from the 2600 personally, but should not be hard with the 2600 Basic. I like Lode Runner, it was made for many systems.

 

For you 2600 fans, I am watching this video about restoring old cartridge labels. I like his solution of making a printed label appear glossy.



#72 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:15 PM

I used good hp photo paper to print my Ultimate Cart's label, carefully stuck clear packing tape on it, cut it to size and used a glue stick to attach it to the XE cart.

It looks good and hasn't fallen off yet.

#73 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:51 PM

Yeah, I've done some research, there is tape specifically meant to cover shipping labels to protect them. They have 2inch wide and 4inch wide tape. It not only makes the label look glossy/shiny, but protects from wear. When you apply the tape, you may need to run a flat edge like a ruler over it to push out any air bubbles.


Edited by peteym5, Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:02 PM.


#74 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:32 PM

I achieved perfect results using only my fingers, but yes, the ruler sounds like a good idea.

 

I used 4" tape.



#75 peteym5 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:34 AM

I know about using poly urethane clear coat and tried the spray. The guy in the video also tried it. It sorta puddled up in spots and saturated the paper, did not look good. The clear plastic tape is probably the easiest solution of making a professional glossy looking label.

 

You know there is another way of removing labels because I have experience with refurbishing parts and removing old labels. Use a heat gun or hot air dryer to heat up the glue. Makes it easier to peel off labels. Using chemicals like WD-40 will be hit or miss because different companies used different glues.

 

isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) is also a very standard chemical used to clean up electric contacts and could also be used to loosen glue.


Edited by peteym5, Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:38 AM.





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