+GoldLeader Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 I think it's safe to say that some people only want perfection. Well I'd Prefer perfection too! But I'm very realistic that even if a product is not perfect, that Doesn't mean it's horrible. There is quite few degrees of variance between Perfect and Horrible. And some of the games on this thing do appear to be perfect so... Put another way, I was glad to see this Flashback is not as bad as people have made it out to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaNZ Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) I agree with this. ^^ Also if you think back to the Master System, that one didn't quite put a dent in the marketplace either, but the Genesis did. The thing AtGames has to worry about next though is that their quality is consistently good. Because after Sega did the Genesis, they kept making a ton of mistakes until the Dreamcast. The Master System actually did better than the NES in most regions other than Japan and the US. I'm not kidding when I say I'd never even heard of Nintendo until I picked up a US gaming magazine. I didn't know a single person who had an NES when I was a kid. We all had Commodore 64s and Master Systems So yeah while the NES sold more units I think there would certainly be a market for a mini SMS, especially in the UK, Australia and here in NZ but maybe those markets aren't big enough to bother. Edited April 19, 2018 by MantaNZ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philyso Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) And to answer the emulation question, it's an original creation by the aforementioned Marat. There is no re-use of others' code. Say what you will about AtGames, but they don't take things without explicit permission. Well, it seems like someone as analyzed the built-in emulator and things are not so 'clean' as you are saying. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?33299-Petition-against-ATgames-being-the-Mega-Drive-Mini-Developer&p=813434&viewfull=1#post813434 FM and PSG code appears to be from Gens. VDP and IO code appears to be from Genesis Plus (the original by Charles MacDonald, not the fork by Eke Eke). 68000 emulation is provided by Cyclone (used in Picodrive). Z80 emulation appears to be custom. I've pinged Charles MacDonald and Stéphane Dallongeville (author of Gens) and neither is aware of any commercial licensing agreement with AtGames for their code. AtGames doesn't appear to have released the source code and there doesn't seem to be a written offer to provide the source code in the included materials based on the unboxing videos. This means they're not compliant with the GPL either. With no GPL compliance and no separate commercial licensing agreement, it would appear they have engaged in copyright infringement. It is kind of odd though. The selection of components used suggests they were trying to avoid any code with a MAME-style non-commercial license. While Gens is GPL and Genesis Plus had GPL releases, both included some components from MAME under an incompatible license and they've only used the parts that have no MAME code. To go to that effort and then fail at GPL compliance is a little weird. Possible they just don't understand what the GPL requires. Mask of Destiny is a respected member of the MD emulation scene so I don't see any reason for him to lie or for us to doubt what he is claiming so it would be interesting to know what will be AtGames stance about this. The most frustrating maybe would be that if they had respected the GPL and made the source available on demand, people would have been able to modify and replace the current emulator with something better. Even from ATgames's point of view, it would have been beneficial to have a better emulator developed by the community, free of charge, instead of paying someone to simply put existing pieces of open-source code together (MD Flashback would also have probably gained a better reputation and possibly increase its sales). Edited April 23, 2018 by philyso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 The most frustrating maybe would be that if they had respected the GPL and made the source available on demand, people would have been able to modify and replace the current emulator with something better. Even from ATgames's point of view, it would have been beneficial to have a better emulator developed by the community, free of charge, instead of paying someone to simply put existing pieces of open-source code together (MD Flashback would also have probably gained a better reputation and possibly increase its sales). I'll pass the info onto AtGames. If that's true as stated, then it's of course completely unintentional. For this year's products, using completely different emulation (and no longer the same developer), all necessary steps have been taken on both the Atari and Sega sides. This includes being in direct contact with all developers, posting the necessary license statements, sharing source code, etc. There should be zero potential for misunderstandings or any similar issues. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I'm going to post this on the Sega forum once my user name gets approved, but here's the official statement: AtGames has requested that I respond to this accusation related to Genesis Plus and start a positive and ongoing dialog directly with the community. AtGames goes to great lengths to make sure every IP is properly licensed and that all software licenses are respected. In almost all cases, AtGames' products to date have featured original code developed under its direction. For those few cases where this has not been the case, agreements and licenses have been granted, either directly through the developer or through a specific third party. In the interest of disclosure to this community, for AtGames' upcoming range of 2018 HD products, they are leveraging proven third party contributions in combination with AtGames' in-house expertise. AtGames has agreements in place with the authors, will be abiding by the license requirements (including posting relevant statements), and will of course contribute any changes back to the source code. AtGames understands how passionate the community is about their products, but they would appreciate that before such accusations like those related to Genesis Plus are publicly put forth in the future, that the company is given a chance to share what the reality is. This also extends to the upcoming 2018 HD console products, which they hope will be given a fair chance to stand on their own merits. There is a line that divides passionate expression of opinion with false accusations and outright slander. AtGames instead wants to engage with the community positively and openly and invites said community to respond in kind going forward, helping to create the kind of products they would enjoy. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblenkle Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 I usually don't comment on things like this, but that statement doesn't really directly address the accusations that were made...or even really deny them...and putting "passionate" in quotation marks and mentioning outright slander is kind of threatening sounding. AtGames isn't going to make any friends with the tone they are taking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I usually don't comment on things like this, but that statement doesn't really directly address the accusations that were made...or even really deny them...and putting "passionate" in quotation marks and mentioning outright slander is kind of threatening sounding. AtGames isn't going to make any friends with the tone they are taking. The accusations are denied as the statement makes clear. Anything not developed in-house was used with strict permission. And the wording is strong, yes. Hopefully it's a starting point. I may soften some of the wording, though, just to make sure we're not being overly combative. They are serious accusations, however. (EDIT: Softened.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philyso Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) Just putting this link I found on Mike Pavone twitter (https://twitter.com/mikepavone?lang=fr) which proves that Gens, Picodrive and Genesis Plus code is used in Flashback MD software (well, at least identical functions and data names but it would make no sense from developer point of view to use so much exact same names as existing emulators if not copying code from them) https://www.retrodev.com/files/atgames_analysis.html Also, regarding this statement: For those few cases where this has not been the case, agreements and licenses have been granted, either directly through the developer or through a specific third party. FYI, according to mask of Destiny, author of Gens (Stephane Dallongeville) and Genesis Plus (Charles MacDOnald) have explicitly denied giving any agreement to anyone regarding the use or relicensing of their code in the existing Atgames Flashback. Also, third parties can not give agreement on code for which they don't own the copyright, so, from AtGames statement above, it's possible they subcontracted the whole emulator development to a developer (that Marat guy?) which fooled them by pretending he wrote all the code himself, but instead bundled existing GPL emulators portions together without telling anyone. Anyway, according to Stephane Dallongeville in a french forum (link below), ATGames released the source code of the Flashback MD emulator yesterday (probably to comply with the GPL) but I couldn't find a link anywhere. http://www.gamopat-forum.com/t98761p150-megadrive-mini-by-sega Edited April 24, 2018 by philyso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 There's a link to this in there ... perhaps this is circumstantial evidence but I wouldn't jump to conclusions either way. AnalysisThe AtGames Genesis Flashback HD is a Rockchip SoC based device running Android. Genesis/MD and SMS support are provided by two Android apps, one for each respective console. Both apps contain native code for the actual emulation in the form of a shared library (this is standard for NDK apps). Based on the symbol information included in the shared library for the Genesis emulator, I believe that substantial portions of the emulator are based on existing open source emulators. In particular, the YM2612 and PSG emulation seems to come from Gens with the VDP and IO emulation code from Genesis Plus. 68000 emulation appears to be provided by Cyclone, which is used in Picodrive, but is available separately. Symbols related to Z80 emulation don't seem to match any open source emulators. Both Gens and Cyclone are available under the GPL license. Genesis Plus was originally licensed under GPL but later switched to a non-commercial license. Source code does not appear to be available anywhere on AtGames' website and the documentation included with the console does not include a written offer to provide the source code. As a result, it would appear that AtGames is not in compliance with the GPL. I've contacted both Stéphane Dallongeville (author of Gens) and Charles MacDonald (author of Genesis Plus) and neither are aware of a commercial licensing agreement that would permit AtGames to use their code without complying with the GPL. Interestingly, there is some evidence that AtGames is not completely licensing obvlivious. Both Gens and the GPL releases of Genesis Plus contain some code under a GPL-incompatible non-commercial license. AtGames seems to have chosen components from these emulators that avoid the non-GPL portions. Symbol List Symbols that match Gens Palette Update_Chan_Algo0 in0 in1 in2 in3 ENV_TAB en0 en1 en2 en3 ENV_NEXT_EVENT SIN_TAB TL_TAB Update_Chan_Algo1 Update_Chan_Algo2 Update_Chan_Algo3 Update_Chan_Algo4 Update_Chan_Algo5 Update_Chan_Algo6 Update_Chan_Algo7 Update_Chan_Algo0_LFO LFO_FREQ_UP LFO_ENV_UP Update_Chan_Algo1_LFO Update_Chan_Algo2_LFO Update_Chan_Algo3_LFO Update_Chan_Algo4_LFO Update_Chan_Algo5_LFO Update_Chan_Algo6_LFO Update_Chan_Algo7_LFO Update_Chan_Algo0_Int YM2612 int_cnt Update_Chan_Algo1_Int Update_Chan_Algo2_Int Update_Chan_Algo3_Int Update_Chan_Algo4_Int Update_Chan_Algo5_Int Update_Chan_Algo6_Int Update_Chan_Algo7_Int Update_Chan_Algo0_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo1_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo2_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo3_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo4_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo5_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo6_LFO_Int Update_Chan_Algo7_LFO_Int Env_Attack_Next Env_Decay_Next Env_Substain_Next Env_Release_Next Env_NULL_Next CALC_FINC_CH FINC_TAB CSM_Key_Control DECAY_TO_ATTACK SLOT_SET YM2612_Update SL_TAB DR_TAB NULL_RATE AR_TAB YM_Len YM_Buf Sound_Extrapol Seg_L Seg_R DT_TAB YM2612_Special_Update CHANNEL_SET LFO_AMS_TAB LFO_FMS_TAB FKEY_TAB YM_SET LFO_INC_TAB YM2612_Init YM2612_Reset LFO_ENV_TAB LFO_FREQ_TAB DT_DEF_TAB YM2612_Write Update_GYM_Dump GYM_Dumping YM2612_End YM2612_Read UPDATE_CHAN YM2612_Save YM2612_Restore YM2612_DacAndTimers_Update INTER_TAB PSG_Buf PSG_Len PSG_Special_Update PSG_Write PSG_Update_SIN PSG_Update PSG PSG_Volume_Table PSG_Step_Table PSG_Noise_Step_Table PSG_SIN_Table PSG_Init PSG_Restore_State PSG_Save PSG_Save_State PSG_Enable PSG_Improv Symbols that match Genesis Plus m68k_execute m68k_set_irq vint_pending hint_pending cart_rom work_ram z80_reset zbank fm_write psg_write z80_execute DAATable vsram ntab ntbb ntwb hscb satb playfield_row_mask playfield_col_mask playfield_shift v_counter sound_reset snd fm_update_timers bitmap zbusreq zreset audio_init zbusack io_reg io_reset cram addr_latch sat_base_mask sat_addr_mask vdp_int_ack_callback device_3b_r device_3b_w gen_io_w gen_io_r gen_reset emulation_initialized dma_fill vdp_data_r vdp_ctrl_r vdp_data_w vdp_ctrl_w vdp_reg_w dma_vbus dma_copy vdp_dma_r Symbols that match Cyclone CycloneRun CycloneInit CycloneSetSr CycloneGetSr CycloneVer Symbols that match both Gens and Genesis Pluspending Symbols that don't match Gens, Genesis Plus or Cyclone BadOpcode m68k_trash m68k_init CPU68k m68k_ack_irq VDPstatus m68k_reset MirrorROM GenCheckPC GenRead8 GenWrite8 GenWrite16 GenWrite32 GenCheckPCM GenRead16 GenRead16M GenRead8M GenRead32 GenRead32M m68k_cycles_left romSize m68k_read8_rest m68k_read16_rest m68k_write8 m68k_write16 CPUZ80 pZRam CheckZ80 z80_setirq z80_interrupt WrZ80 rom_pages fm2 VDPreg adpcm_status ADPCM_Write8 ADPCM_SetStartValue ADPCM_SetFIFOLevel ADPCM_SetSampleRate RdZ80 ExecNZ80 InZ80 OutZ80 EndExecute NextOpcode NextOpcodeD.byte NextOpcodeF.byte NextOpcodeCB NextOpcodeED NextOpcodeDD NextOpcodeFD Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniStop TrashAudio Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniStart InitAudio Application Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniPause Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniSendCommand Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniScreenshot CopyRectangle GetVideoWidth GetVideoHeight Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniDrawReady Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniPlayAudio CopyAudioData Java_com_atgames_MyView_jniHandleDraw Do3xResize Do2xResize DrawCharsW Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniHandleKey GetVideo GetFrontVideo GetBackVideo GetOutputVideoWidth GetOutputVideoHeight FlipVideo RequestFlip FlipReady IsExiting GetJoystick WaitJoystick WaitSyncTimer SetSyncTimer SetFrame OpenMenu GetCommand GetHardwareButtons GetAnalogPaddles Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniHandleStick Java_com_atgames_MainActivity_jniHandleTilt Java_com_atgames_GLView_jniInitGLES Java_com_atgames_GLView_jniResizeGLES Java_com_atgames_GLView_jniRefreshGLES android_fopen HandleAudio GetTotalAudio GetFreeAudio WriteAudio PauseAudio DoCopy Do2xSai DoScale2x Do2xVResize DoScale3x RKInterpolation INIOpenFile INICloseFile INIGetINT INIGetSTR INIGetHEX INIGetFLT Sound Drum SetSound SetChannels SetWave GetWave InitMIDI TrashMIDI MIDILogging MIDITicks SndDriver RND32 RNDInitSeed Encode EnXTEA Decode DeXTEA XTEAKey ClearVideo SetFont DefaultFont CurFont Message Text Hex Text16 CurFont16 NewImage FreeImage CropImage ShowImage LoadBMP tfs_fopen tfs_ftell tfs_fread tfs_fseek tfs_fclose ConvertToRGB DrawRectangle FillRectangle DrawArc FillArc FillTriangle DrawLine FillArea CopyRectangleT DrawString LoadWAV DefaultFont16 memread memwrite FAT32_init FAT32_initialized FAT32_fopen FAT32_fread FAT32_fwrite FAT32_fclose FAT32_fseek FAT32_ftell FAT32_fgets FAT32_fgetc FAT32_feof STDIOInit STDIOAddFS direntry tfs_getaddr tfs_fdopen tfs_fflush tfs_rewind tfs_fwrite tfs_fgetc tfs_fgets tfs_fputc tfs_open tfs_close tfs_read tfs_write tfs_lseek tfs_dup tfs_remove tfs_unlink tfs_fileno tfs_clearerr tfs_feof tfs_ferror tfs_fprintf RenderAudio ADPCM_Decode ADPCM_Channels fm RunGenesis EmulatorInit InitReplay LoadState StartReplay SaveState RecordInput PlayInput EmulatorCore EmulatorQuit SkipFrames TVFrames Seg_Len scr_bits saveDirv scr_width scr_depth scr_height DrawScanline pVRam has_sprites sat_changed CapPixels YM2612_Restore_State DAC_FIFO_init DAC_FIFO DAC_FIFO_read DAC_FIFO_write DAC_FIFO_get_space YM2612_InitDAC YM2612_ResetDAC YM2612_UpdateDAC YM2612_UpdateFrame ADPCM_Reset ADPCM_Config adpcm_FFL adpcm_FSR Step_Table Index_Adjust ADPCM_Write16 adpcm_IM adpcm_config GlobalsInit sega_init sega_reset gamePaused stateName saveName total_pages DemoTimer FrmRate ScrOffsetY DblBuffer PreferPAL TVClocks TVSystem TVLines SRAMlow SRAMhigh pSRam doframe sega_shutdown GlobalsTrash bitOrgnize EmdDrawBitmap EmdDrawScanline EmdPalette Fill_DAC_FIFO LinesToDraw JoyCount cmode graphics_reset setColor VDPaddr VDPcode md_state audio_shutdown setColorEMD iodata gen_busreq ResetEEPROM eeprom cartName SndRate m68k_initial_cycles gameID SaveEEPROM LoadEEPROM WriteEEPROM SaveStateBUF LoadStateBUF GetReplaySize StopReplay dma_abus m68k_write32 restore_core_regs input Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblenkle Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 That's the whole thing...it does sound combative...I've just got a bad taste in my mouth after the Coleco vs. Fan Pages fiasco that took place recently. The accusations are denied as the statement makes clear. Anything not developed in-house was used with strict permission. And the wording is strong, yes. Hopefully it's a starting point. I may soften some of the wording, though, just to make sure we're not being overly combative. They are serious accusations, however. (EDIT: Softened.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaNZ Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) Sega please, just do it yourselves. Get old Christian Whitehead to handle the emulation side. I mean they have released so many compilation packs... and they have plenty of Android releases... why not use those same coders? Edited April 24, 2018 by MantaNZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 That's the whole thing...it does sound combative...I've just got a bad taste in my mouth after the Coleco vs. Fan Pages fiasco that took place recently. I agree that AtGames should take the high road, but man, there are some seriously butthurt Sega fans out there (not you) badmouthing this company for trying. I also agree that it's on AtGames to up their game with the next release. Maybe it takes "strong language" for the fanbase to realize: - AtGames realizes that the performance of its in-house emulator is insufficient, and - In choosing other emulator(s), they will abide by licensing terms without cheating/stealing Sega please, just do it yourselves. Get old Christian Whitehead to handle the emulation side. I mean they have released so many compilation packs... and they have plenty of Android releases... why not use those same coders? Christian Whitehead releases are way more work than that, kind of like the M2 remakes on 3DS. I had a little Twitter back-and-forth with him some years ago asking the same thing. Each one is re-created by hand, it's not just like throwing a ROM in an emulator. Don't take my word for it, here's another source ... CM: Could you briefly explain some of the development process behind the game? We know that you decided to use your Retro Engine – which you had previously used for your fan game – and rebuild CD and the subsequent games, rather than porting over the originals. What was the main advantage of that? CW: Unlike emulation or porting the original source code, remastering the Sonic games with the Retro Engine requires rewriting the game’s logic from the ground up. On the surface, this seems more work than necessary, but the advantages of having the games working in a more modern engine are numerous. The games are able to run natively at full speed on any platform the Retro Engine exists on, supporting any screen aspect ratio up to 16:9. The RSDK has a complete set of tools for creating and editing content, which makes adding support for new features like new characters, levels, game modes, etc. much easier to achieve than using an emulator with additional ‘hooks’ hacked in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaNZ Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Christian Whitehead releases are way more work than that, kind of like the M2 remakes on 3DS. I had a little Twitter back-and-forth with him some years ago asking the same thing. Each one is re-created by hand, it's not just like throwing a ROM in an emulator. Yeah I realise that. I just meant the dude clearly has the knowledge and skills to get it done properly and his love of the IP wouldn't allow for a shoddy product. Plus, they've worked with him before. But not just him... as I mentioned, who handled emulation of all their Mega Drive PC and Android releases? Why not use them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Yeah I realise that. I just meant the dude clearly has the knowledge and skills to get it done properly and his love of the IP wouldn't allow for a shoddy product. Plus, they've worked with him before. But not just him... as I mentioned, who handled emulation of all their Mega Drive PC and Android releases? Why not use them? I get you don't like AtGames, but I think even extreme skeptics like you should still wait and see what comes out later this year. You do after all have at least one more year with AtGames and these HD products, so there's no loss in seeing what actually gets produced. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derFunkenstein Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) Yeah I realise that. I just meant the dude clearly has the knowledge and skills to get it done properly and his love of the IP wouldn't allow for a shoddy product. Plus, they've worked with him before. But not just him... as I mentioned, who handled emulation of all their Mega Drive PC and Android releases? Why not use them? Wasn't it Steve Snake? (Kega Fusion author) I can't find anything on Google right now but I seem to remember he was involved with Sega at one point. I'm willing to wait and see what AtGames puts out this year, because existing emulators have proven better than the stuff they put out last year. Edited April 24, 2018 by derFunkenstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 That's the whole thing...it does sound combative...I've just got a bad taste in my mouth after the Coleco vs. Fan Pages fiasco that took place recently. I'm not sure it matters what tone it is, because it's already an incredibly hostile crowd. If they're up for a discussion, then that's great. If not, then nothing lost. The only real hope is that if the 2018 HD products deliver, they'll be open to accepting the products rather than dismissing them and the company anyway out of spite. And if a particular individual or individuals think that their work was used incorrectly, then they're free to contact AtGames directly. That seems to me a more productive approach than making accusations and ranting on forums or social media (with my understanding that a lot of the posts and statements are not even them doing it). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaNZ Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I get you don't like AtGames, but I think even extreme skeptics like you should still wait and see what comes out later this year. You do after all have at least one more year with AtGames and these HD products, so there's no loss in seeing what actually gets produced. To be fair I've been giving them the benefit of the doubt for a good decade. There are only so many products one can buy in the hope of finally getting something decent. lol. Don't worry, I'll be buying this anyway if only to sit on the shelf as I really can't pass up an official tiny Sega system. It'll go nicely with my Mini NES, SNES and C64 Oh and if you convince them to have tiny carts for sale with game compilations on them I'll be your best friend forever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Yeah I realise that. I just meant the dude clearly has the knowledge and skills to get it done properly and his love of the IP wouldn't allow for a shoddy product. Plus, they've worked with him before. But not just him... as I mentioned, who handled emulation of all their Mega Drive PC and Android releases? Why not use them?Sometimes you get good results, sometimes you get the Sega Forever launch. http://toucharcade.com/2017/12/11/musgravian-musings-six-months-later-things-are-looking-up-for-sega-forever/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Oh and if you convince them to have tiny carts for sale with game compilations on them I'll be your best friend forever That would be cool, actually, but the kind of thing you can probably make yourself. Hopefully the full details for the Japanese and "other territory" versions will be revealed soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblenkle Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 I choose to remain neutral in this whole thing. I almost bought one of these because of the appeal of HDMI output, but I never got around to it. Until then, my original Genesis, Sega CD, etc. are chugging along just fine. If I don't have a particular game on cartridge or CD, I just play via emulation on my computer. I'm not sure it matters what tone it is, because it's already an incredibly hostile crowd. If they're up for a discussion, then that's great. If not, then nothing lost. The only real hope is that if the 2018 HD products deliver, they'll be open to accepting the products rather than dismissing them and the company anyway out of spite. And if a particular individual or individuals think that their work was used incorrectly, then they're free to contact AtGames directly. That seems to me a more productive approach than making accusations and ranting on forums or social media (with my understanding that a lot of the posts and statements are not even them doing it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molul Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Sega please, just do it yourselves. Get old Christian Whitehead to handle the emulation side. I mean they have released so many compilation packs... and they have plenty of Android releases... why not use those same coders? Christian Whitehead has remastered Sonic 1, 2 and CD, and has developed the recent Sonic Mania with his own engine. He has never programmed a Mega drive emulator, afaik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaNZ Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Christian Whitehead has remastered Sonic 1, 2 and CD, and has developed the recent Sonic Mania with his own engine. He has never programmed a Mega drive emulator, afaik. Okay well my point was use someone else. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Anyway, according to Stephane Dallongeville in a french forum (link below), ATGames released the source code of the Flashback MD emulator yesterday (probably to comply with the GPL) but I couldn't find a link anywhere. http://www.gamopat-forum.com/t98761p150-megadrive-mini-by-sega This is really getting out of control. AtGames did NOT release the source code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philyso Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) This is really getting out of control. AtGames did NOT release the source code. Like I said, both Stephane Dallongeville (who is the author of Gens emulator and SGDK devkit) and Mike Pavone (who is the author of Blastem emulator) are both respected and reasonable people, who never engaged so far in internet drama or liying. If they are saying that they got access to Flashback HD emulator sourecode and that it was given to them by someone from AtGames, I have no reason to doubt their words. This does not mean the sourcecode was PUBLICLY released but that it was released to some people who asked for it (which is actually one of the rights granted by GPL code). I understand that AtGames PRs are trying to keep everything 'under control' (or more likely 'private') and are kinda freaked out by this bad publicity, which unfortunately comes just after Sega's Megadrive Mini announcement and the overall very negative public response when knowing AtGames would be behind the product, but I would really advise them (and you) not to blame this just on 'haters' (hmm this sound familiar) and making public statements to minimize or deny their responsibility because facts are that : 1) AtGames gained its bad reputation in retrogaming community by itself, by releasing cheap and low-quality Genesis products along all these years. It's good they want to release better products (and obviously gain a better reputation) but you can not blame people for not trusting the brand anymore and being doubtful when they make announcements of upcoming 'better and greater' things. 2) It was proven (see reverse engineering analysis posted above) that the released Flashback HD product is using existing GPL emulation software (and not an original creation as initially claimed) without either mentioning the rights granted by GPL to their consumers (as normally requested by GPL terms) OR alternatively getting a proprietary relicensing agreement from the copyright owners of said GPL code (which both Gens and Genesis Plus developers denied having with AtGames or anyone affiliated with them). Instead of making a public statement that more or less denounces 'false accusations from haters' (without addressing the opposed proofs), claims that they got permissions from 'every concerned developers' (which can easily be denied by asking directly copyright owners of found code) then ask people to give them another 'chance', they should have rather acknowledged the problem and saying that they are investigating in intern and will be trying to fix any existing licensing issues. Please do not take this personal Bill, I am sure you have good intentions and as AtGames messenger, I understand that you don't like people attacking or doubting the company, but I see no reason why we should not expose problems publicly when we are aware of them and proofs are out there, just like with any other products aimed to be sold to us. Edited April 26, 2018 by philyso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) There is no "Slander". It's truth. Like saying the third TMNT movie was bad. It's truth. All previous ATGames versions of the Sega Genesis have been bad. Sure they might work fine, and hell, who knows, they could continue to work for a million years, even if they're physically built better than tank... fact is, they don't actually play Genesis games well. Someone who didn't play a Sega Genesis back in "the day", but is now picking up one of these would be all "Shit, no wonder the SNES is so well remembered, the Genesis what shyte!!!" But it wasn't. Playing a Genesis back in "the day" was NOTHING like playing an ATGames release TODAY. I remember thinking the same thing when the Smash Pack was released on the Dreamcast. My exact thoughts were "Oh my god... Anyone who has never played a Sega Genesis, but is now playing this collection... is not going to understand just how good the genesis was... they'll think it was a bunch of blips and farts and graphical glitches. The ATGames Genesis releases so far have been the equivalent of taken a 320x240 digital photo of the Mona Lisa, blowing it up, printing it on a dot matrix printer and then trying to sell it as a "quality reproduction". But hell Sega keeps letting them do it, and Sega themselves did it with the Smash Pack, So I ain't blaming ATGames for trying to make some money and create a job or two here, I'm blaming Sega and their entire history of making shitty decisions in the name of a dollar. Edited April 26, 2018 by Torr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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