Why no music on Jag Doom?

[_shameless_]

i've tried to find an answer to this, but my searching hasn't yielded anything really. Why was there never any sound on the jaguar version of doom? was it to get better performance out of the game? There are quite a few full 3d games(i know doom isn't actually 3d) that played music during gameplay like checkered flag, missile command 3d, club drive, and of course tempest 2000 which had a stellar soundtrack. the jaguar seems quite capable of producing pretty decent music, so why not doom?

[BillyHW]

I actually prefer it without the music, but yeah, it would be interesting to know the real reason. I'm just speculating that it was for performance, or maybe there wasn't enough memory in the Jag to do it all at once.

[SignGuy81]

It's like every port of Doom had something missing, levels, sounds, graphics, etc. No one port had everything.

[+madman]

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/69035-doom-music/

[Keatah]

Well yeh.. decision of typical marketing morons. They rush it to the shelves and the port was incomplete. And the system would've been slowed down anyways because of bus bandwidth - if they did a crude conversion. Too much would've had to be re-written to get it back up to speed.

[SoundGammon]

Try it in surround sound! Doom & Wolfenstein are great!

[Keatah]

The correct way to play Doom is on the PC. Vintage 386/486 with soundblaster. In a pinch you can get close via DosBox if you take care set things up right.

 

All other platforms are 2nd rate. 2bfair the original platform of whatever game is usually best on its original hardware. Ports are money grabs.

[82-T/A]

The correct way to play Doom is on the PC. Vintage 386/486 with soundblaster. In a pinch you can get close via DosBox if you take care set things up right.

 

All other platforms are 2nd rate. 2bfair the original platform of whatever game is usually best on its original hardware. Ports are money grabs.

 

 

Well, it can be a Pentium also... runs really well on a Pentium II, and with a Roland Sound Canvas, so you can actually tell that the in-game music that's playing is actually from Slayer, Pantera, and Dokken. Otherwise, you have no idea what that OPL1/2/3 synth nonsense is...

[skip]

The correct way to play Doom is on the PC. Vintage 386/486 with soundblaster. In a pinch you can get close via DosBox if you take care set things up right.

 

All other platforms are 2nd rate. 2bfair the original platform of whatever game is usually best on its original hardware. Ports are money grabs.

Technically all games sold for money are money grabs so lets stop buying games then eh?

 

"The correct way"...oookay.

 

If one doesn't have an old PC for games, nor the PS1 (or subsequent modern console online store 'retro' versions) the Jag version isn't too bad at all. I'm happy to be incorrect (despite having an old PC and other versions).

 

Back to the original question, that old AA thread or Google should confirm some of the following (my memory is a bit rusty) - DSP was used for some graphical stuff, bus bandwidth was maxed out, Carmack said he could've redone it to get more performance if he did it again, the Jag FAQ has a code / hack to get music instead of sounds, playing both at once in the current version of DOOM makes music and / or framerate choppy.

[ZylonBane]

All other platforms are 2nd rate. 2bfair the original platform of whatever game is usually best on its original hardware. Ports are money grabs.

 

Stop being a crazy person.

[Keatah]

Stop bothering me about it.

[Keatah]

Well, it can be a Pentium also... runs really well on a Pentium II, and with a Roland Sound Canvas, so you can actually tell that the in-game music that's playing is actually from Slayer, Pantera, and Dokken. Otherwise, you have no idea what that OPL1/2/3 synth nonsense is...

 

Well yes. Pentium 60 - 200MMX fall into the Doom timeframe too. As do the Pentium II Slot-1 processors, though by the time these PII chips were coming of age Quake was in full swing. PII was toward the end of the Doom craze, but certainly still period correct. To recap and clarify, 386SX-33 to Pentium II are the contemporary processors for Doom on the PC. Anything slower and it bogs down, anything faster and you're getting away from the sweet spot in time.

 

While I recognize the Roland cards are generally regarded as top of the line.. and understand the technical advantages.. I think I will always prefer the cheaper OPL on the then hot-shit SoundBlaster 16. Couldn't afford the RSC. So the SB is what I gamed on and built all the good times and memories with.

 

I did get lucky and was able to afford a WaveBlaster upgrade. So that was cool.

 

---

 

Three of the reasons I claim Doom is best on the PC are:

1- It is native.

2- PC supports add-ons, mods, and wads.

3- There is modem support.

 

[Keatah]

Technically all games sold for money are money grabs so lets stop buying games then eh?

 

Ports are IMHO money grabs, because they're often farmed out to the cheapest bidder whom is told to convert this into that. Subtleties are lost. And in the instances when the port is nearly pixel-perfect, extra hardware resources of the new host machine often go unused. But hey, it is what it is.

[+Sauron]

 

Ports are IMHO money grabs, because they're often farmed out to the cheapest bidder whom is told to convert this into that. Subtleties are lost. And in the instances when the port is nearly pixel-perfect, extra hardware resources of the new host machine often go unused. But hey, it is what it is.

 

And this and your other nonsensical posts have what to do with the topic of this thread?

[skip]

 

Ports are IMHO money grabs, because they're often farmed out to the cheapest bidder whom is told to convert this into that. Subtleties are lost. And in the instances when the port is nearly pixel-perfect, extra hardware resources of the new host machine often go unused. But hey, it is what it is.

Yet iD and Carmack himself (and Taylor) were directly involved with the Wolf 3D and DOOM ports...hmmmm.... ( http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Atari_Jaguar )

 

Here's Carmack talking about the Wolf port on Jag having to be *slowed* to 30fps -

 

And some more relevant stuff here http://3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3564 and

 

here: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27079

Edited June 12, 2017 by skip

[Keatah]

And this and your other nonsensical posts have what to do with the topic of this thread?

 

My other "nonsensical posts" are only nonsensical to people that can't understand them.

 

---

 

The common-knowledge answer is the SC414201FT is used for collision detection. And thus has little resources left for music. Once the game stops and collision detection is not needed it can go ahead and play the intermission music.

[VladR]

Well, it can be a Pentium also... runs really well on a Pentium II, and with a Roland Sound Canvas, so you can actually tell that the in-game music that's playing is actually from Slayer, Pantera, and Dokken. Otherwise, you have no idea what that OPL1/2/3 synth nonsense is...

As for the CPU: I was a PC guy at that time, and started playing Doom on 386DX40 MHz, then 486DX2-66, then P1-100. Pentium was an overkill for Doom. Even 486 DX2 was too fast most of the time, with terrible tearing.

 

As for the sound card, I'm intrigued ! While I only ever had the generic SoundBlaster at the time, my friend bought the 5x more expensive Gravis Ultrasound, and Doom sounded phenomenal with it. Was that Roland card something similar ? I never saw it in my part of Europe, and I had access to large-volume price lists from multiple resellers, where there was literally everything money could buy. Perhaps this card was distributed just in US ?

 

 

To recap and clarify, 386SX-33 to Pentium II are the contemporary processors for Doom on the PC. Anything slower and it bogs down, anything faster and you're getting away from the sweet spot in time.

I don't believe you could run Doom without math coprocessor. And 386 SX were just the low-yield DX's with faulty/disabled coprocessors, if memory serves correct.

 

 

Back on the topic, though - I cannot imagine playing Doom without the music. It's just not full experience...

[Rick Dangerous]

Wonder if it would be possible to do a hack with the music added....

 

CJ is good about upgrading music for a lot of the ST ports, not sure why it couldn't be done with Doom.

[+Sauron]

 

My other "nonsensical posts" are only nonsensical to people that can't understand them.

 

Which means pretty much everyone except for yourself. Stay on topic, please.

[+Sauron]

Wonder if it would be possible to do a hack with the music added....

 

CJ is good about upgrading music for a lot of the ST ports, not sure why it couldn't be done with Doom.

 

Because it's about a lot more than just inserting music. If it were that easy, Doom would have shipped with in-game music.

 

.

[+madman]

Wonder if it would be possible to do a hack with the music added....

 

CJ is good about upgrading music for a lot of the ST ports, not sure why it couldn't be done with Doom.

Read the thread I linked above.

[Keatah]

The jag doesn't have the resources available. The game would need to incorporate collision detection in the CPU as opposed to the DSP. I don't doubt it could be done at the expense of responsiveness when you blast an enemy. And who would want that.

 

Doom would need a complete re-write for the jag.

[VladR]

Yet iD and Carmack himself (and Taylor) were directly involved with the Wolf 3D and DOOM ports...hmmmm.... ( http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Atari_Jaguar )

 

Here's Carmack talking about the Wolf port on Jag having to be *slowed* to 30fps -

 

And some more relevant stuff here http://3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3564 and

 

here: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27079

Thanks for the video. It was quite entertaining.

 

As for the *30 fps*, I'm very glad this "60-fps Wolf on jag" nonsense was officially confirmed, since I can't say how many times here I've seen those lofty claims that wolf does 60 fps on jag.

 

I finally played it on jag recently, and I was just shocked. Not only it's instantly obvious it is not 60 fps. It also, quite often, crosses vblank boundary, hence drops from 30 to 20 fps. It's extremely noticeable, even on a very small TV.

 

Also, the resolution looks like it's 224x240, or 256x240. It's definitely not 320x200 - the pixels are too large for that.

[Keatah]

I don't believe you could run Doom without math coprocessor. And 386 SX were just the low-yield DX's with faulty/disabled coprocessors, if memory serves correct.

 

Back on the topic, though - I cannot imagine playing Doom without the music. It's just not full experience...

 

The pseudo-3D graphics in doom are all done in 32-bit integer math. Doom did not make use of the math co-processor. Anyone in doubt may contact id themselves for confirmation.

 

Until the 486 and Pentium came standard with a co-processor, most all games were written in integer math. A co-processor, at that time, was still part of the professional PC makeup, CAD/CAM, rendering, scientific and engineering stuff.. Those sorts of things.

 

In the 386 world of things, SX meant 16-bit external data bus. And DX meant 32-bit external data bus. The point of the SX was to allow cheaper motherboards to be made by cutting in half the amount of memory access lines. Both chips are 32-bit internally.

 

In the 486 world of things, SX meant no co-processor. And DX meant yes co-processor.

 

---

 

On topic. Sometimes ports of games simply shouldn't happen. Music is integral to the Doom experience, that cannot be questioned. Given enough time and resources music might happen. The effort required goes above and beyond what people were willing to put into ports back in those days.

[82-T/A]

As for the sound card, I'm intrigued ! While I only ever had the generic SoundBlaster at the time, my friend bought the 5x more expensive Gravis Ultrasound, and Doom sounded phenomenal with it. Was that Roland card something similar ? I never saw it in my part of Europe, and I had access to large-volume price lists from multiple resellers, where there was literally everything money could buy. Perhaps this card was distributed just in US ?

 

 

Oh, it was awesome... it really made all the difference in the world. I've posted two videos below that show the comparison. Just listening to the guitar when they do the guitar breaks, it's night and day. The OPL kind of sounds like butt. Yeah, the Roland Sound Canvas was incredibly expensive... I think something like over $500 bucks. I got mine for $35 dollars because the kid who owned it got a new keyboard and upgraded to a Pentium, and said it wouldn't work. It did, I offered to fix it for him, he said he didn't care, and said... how much do you want... he asked for $35 bucks... so that's what I gave him. It requires NO drivers at all, just runs off an address and an IRQ. One of the things that made the Roland sound so good, was its ability to use what's called "reverb." For sound cards, this meant you could have music seemingly play in the distance. So every song wasn't like you had a mariachi band right in your face, but instead... perhaps a full string, brass, woodwind, and percussion orchestra with distance.

 

The big difference between the Gravis UltraSound and the Roland Sound Canvas is that the Gravis had software-loaded patches. This made it uniquely powerful to load patches specifically for a game using 32-voice polyphony. Unfortunately, almost no games took advantage of it, and the Gravis UltraSound spent most of it's life just emulating MT-32 or General Midi, and / or the OPL3. I had a Gravis UltraSound ACE, which was meant to work independently (but installed with) a Sound Blaster. It was a single 16-bit card that didn't do action sounds, just emulated UltraSound. If you ever get the opportunity to hear Star Control 2 with the Gravis UltraSound, the music is done natively with the Ultrasound. It is unbelievably clear... sounds amazing. Those with Sound Blasters would hear constant static.

 

 

Roland SC-155 (daughterboard)

 

 

 

 

Yamaha OPL2 (Sound Blaster basically)

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe you could run Doom without math coprocessor. And 386 SX were just the low-yield DX's with faulty/disabled coprocessors, if memory serves correct.

 

The difference between the 386 SX and the 386 DX was in how the memory was handled by the BUS. I think the 386 DX was true 32-bit architecture through and through... though still used 16-bit ISA slots.

The 386 SX still used a 16-bit data-bus. Basically... think of the 386 SX as being a 286 motherboard that someone slapped a 386 chip onto... because that's basically what they did. 386 DX was actually a step up.

 

The 486 was an entirely different animal.

 

A 486 SX and a 486 DX... like say a 33Mhz, both ran at the exact same speed. I mean, Doom would literally run at the same speed / performance on both the 486 SX and 486 DX. The 486 DX had a built-in Math Co-Processor, while the 486 SX did not.

 

But keep in mind that no games used the Math Co-Processor. They've offered math co-processors from as far back as the 8088. The mathco was basically called the 8087, or the 80287, or the 80387, etc. These chips did nothing unless the games specifically called for it. They were primarily used for business applications that did database processing and excel spreadsheets. I am not aware of any games that actually utilized this processor; however, I do remember hearing that Sierra had something that made use of it... maybe it was their home design suite (basically an AutoCAD type product).

 

 

EDIT: Damn, Keatah beat me to it! haha...

Edited June 12, 2017 by 82-T/A