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STFM motherboard remake project.


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As there is talk about motherboards lately...This isn't to discuss "addons" and what the new motherboard should or should not have, or what motherboard is to be done. This project is to create a clone of the STFM ONLY , which basically has an array of expansion ports to upgrade easily. There will also be some general improvements and modifications, such as moving away from 6 chip ROM to a single 4096 PLCC ROM.

It's clear with so many motherboards going faulty, and so many revisions, that its just not viable to create a "one size fits all" upgrade for all revisions. Not only that, I really am not motivated to create 20 versions of kits to fit all motherboard revisions. Its just not a good use of time or funds. Something just has to change. The idea of doing a new motherboard has been talked about for some years already between myself and Rodolphe Pineau.

Please note, this is a STFM clone project. I'm not going to consider a 060 falcon motherboard, MSTE, STE, TT etc etc or anything like that. I want to create an easy open source STFM platform which is easy to upgrade and people can develop their own addons easily for it.

If there is enough interest and enough people willing to put cash into a kickstarter campaign, then the motherboards can be prototyped and eventually become a reality.

 

More info see my blog post. http://exxosnews.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/super-stfm-motherboard-project.html

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I like this a STFM clone, is this clone going to use a modern PC case?

 

Its a STFM clone. Though someone asked if ATX holes could be placed into the board also. I guess holes are not a problem to add if there are cases which will physically fit the board.

 

 

Incidentally, I have almost done page 1 of the schematics for interested parties. Just started on page 2. There is some mods going in, for example, I am adding resistors into clock lines, the STE has some resistors on some buffers like on the 1772 circuit, so I am also adding those to the STFM. The audio circuit differs from ST to STF, so ran some simulations on both and tweaked it a little. Similar with the video circuit, its being more like the MEGA ST version, a lot similar, Though again I have simulated it and tweaked it.

 

Actually overall taking a lot longer than I thought, so as I am really busy next week, likely be a couple of weeks before the schematic is finished.

Edited by exxosuk
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I looked your project page. Unfortunately, there is not much detail about some, in my opinion essential things. Actually, there is more question than answer. That may be even good in so early stage, but I'm sure that people want to know some concrete things before reach their wallet.

30 years after making some replica with big % of used parts seems for me as not best idea. Compatibility is great, but it seems that it will cost almost same as 30 years ago, and that's not good.

What about video/TV output ? Who has still some analog PAL, NTSC TV, monitor ? Same question stays for keyboard, mouse and even for floppy drive. Actually latest deserves some more talk about. Since more and more people goes on some Flash card based solution, it would be likely better to integrate it.

Best possible thing, in my opinion would be to get rid of expensive WD1772, but still remain low level floppy code compatible. So, using same floppy image formats as HxC,Gotek use, but without MFM coding and decoding - that will make interface simpler, "only" that need to design new DMA chip. But it will be not harder than design of what is on HxC . And since exxos already talked about designing new custom chip replacements, that's really not something extreme idea, I think. It is just that floppy disk and drives are just pain in the ass already. In some 5 years from now will be much worse.

Even simpler would be to forget floppy support and go on pure mass storage. But that will be lower compatibility.

 

The problem with any clone, emulator, even replica is that you can solve that high %-age of SW work well without extreme high accuracy. And because of 1% SW, need to make 200% more effort to make it work.

And this project is just extremely big task. What can be done relative fast is using original parts as much possible. Designing chip clones will take years likely.

 

Finally, some nice expansion port - where can add RAM expansons, IDE adapter, even DMA chip, etc. would be best thing, something what Atari ST always missed. Mega ST has expansion port, but it can be done better.

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If you replace all IC's with FPGA, and add all the changes, then you basically end up with a MiST. I am not looking to re-create it. If that is what people want, then they go buy it.

 

As for using Atari IC, no choice. If someone wants to design cycle accurate IC and make them better, sure I will add them. But for now, there is nothing.

 

As for addons, sure I already mention this. But if people want everything standard, like IDE, fast-ram, new DMA, new video, new everything, not realistic project for one person to do all. Sure I am working on my own IDE design, needs time to debug and test. Same with other 20 projects I am working on.

 

My aim is to create a new motherboard which is more stable with expansion ports. If people want more features, then the people will have to design it as I dont want to spend the next 10 years only working on Atari stuff.

 

In time the board will have all my upgrades as optional extras, but I am still working on a lot of designs which may take some years to complete.

 

As said before, main issue with Atari design is slow MMU, this needs to be updated with SRAM and working at 32mhz with the CPU. If someone designs that, then it can be plugged into new motherboard. If nobody designs it, then it will never get done. Same with video etc. But also it moves away from legacy software and compatibility. I want 100% clone. So likely only using original Atari chips is ever going to happen.

 

Also I can't give any more detail than I already have. I can't comment on a project which has only just been started. I only plan to create a stable STFM clone, one easier to add upgrades for future. Beyond that, others will have to do some work if they want more features.

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"My aim is to create a new motherboard which is more stable with expansion ports." - what it means ?

Still nothing about how expansions will be connected. If it will be as is with usual ST expansions - using daughterboards and like, that will be not improvement in mbo design.

I don't think that people is interested at moment for upgrades. but for board self. How well and easy upgradeable it will be, depends from mbo expansion port design.

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Likely the port will be similar design as falcon expansion ports. I aim to re-use those old 4MB falcon RAM cards for this new motherboards. As for expansion design, I don't have one yet. mostly all CPU pins routed to the port, as most upgrades need address and databus, and only CPU really offers that. Expansion port design itself is for another time.

 

Like I said in my blog, there could well be 3 expansion ports depending on space, maybe even some smaller ones. All IC's can have breakout headers to replace IC's with FPGA if someone wants to develop that. All my upgrades will be taken into account and to add booster will be as simple as to plug in a PLD. Similar with floppy upgrades, 4MB likely be standard anyway. Anything can be done.

 

As said before, its just to much work to continue developing upgrades for various motherboard revisions. Spending time tracing bugs in motherboard, spending time trying to route PCBs to actually fit some style motherboards. It would be less work long term to create new motherboard and just have proper expansion connectors like on falcon. While board may be expensive, upgrades would cost many times less. Bottom line for a upgraded machine cost wise would not likely be much different than new motherboard.

 

I'm not building in 030 32mhz system as standard or any upgrades which will break any software. There are enough machines , clones, and emulators doing that already. This is a stock machine with some much needed changes without breaking anything. Then if people want to upgrade, they can. If they do not, then they dont.

 

Idea is to allow easy upgrades for future and fix all bugs and old designs on motherboard and have a new standard design , not 20 versions of motherboard which Atari seem to have. First step is to re-create motherboard and see what interest is like to continue or not after that. If the community don't like this idea, or don't want to support this project, fair enough. Saves me a lot of un-paid work. Everyone has this one time chance to help create something really good. I think it would be a shame not to do this new board, but its not really up to me.

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This sounds awesome! So I'm guessing by STFM though it'll have floppy and RF Modulator. I would hope the video output would at least be improved to have built in 31khz rather than 15khz (which solves a huge gap due to lack of monitors). If it's just a replacement motherboard, keeping it with the ST form factor would be key. If I wanted a STFM in an ATX case, I'd just run emulators :P

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Likely the port will be similar design as falcon expansion ports. I aim to re-use those old 4MB falcon RAM cards for this new motherboards. As for expansion design, I don't have one yet. mostly all CPU pins routed to the port, as most upgrades need address and databus, and only CPU really offers that. Expansion port design itself is for another time.

 

...

Thanx for that clarification. As some may know, I always talked that lack of universal expansion port is biggest design flaw of ST. Unfortunately Mega ST expansion port is not well made, in my opinion. For instance you can't add there IDE adapter by using just one connector. I say that you need all it on 1 connector: so power, CPU lines, + some other ones like shared floppy/ACSI interrupt line. TOS ROM expansion/replacement should be also possible on that port. And all it is nothing new - it was so on many micros in 80-es of last Century.

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Thanx for that clarification. As some may know, I always talked that lack of universal expansion port is biggest design flaw of ST. Unfortunately Mega ST expansion port is not well made, in my opinion. For instance you can't add there IDE adapter by using just one connector. I say that you need all it on 1 connector: so power, CPU lines, + some other ones like shared floppy/ACSI interrupt line. TOS ROM expansion/replacement should be also possible on that port. And all it is nothing new - it was so on many micros in 80-es of last Century.

 

Yes. Probably a expansion port over DMA IC near the back of the case would be dedicated for hard drives.

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This sounds awesome! So I'm guessing by STFM though it'll have floppy and RF Modulator. I would hope the video output would at least be improved to have built in 31khz rather than 15khz (which solves a huge gap due to lack of monitors). If it's just a replacement motherboard, keeping it with the ST form factor would be key. If I wanted a STFM in an ATX case, I'd just run emulators :P

 

For the moment I am not really considering RF. I asked on another group and people generally said they didn't use it. So it may just be left off. Not sure yet.

 

As for video fixes. That solution doesn't likely exist. Something I don't have time to do. My hands are full with running my store and I hardly have any time to work on my boosters anymore, nevermind anything else. My work will probably take 2-5 years to complete. So if people want such things then someone will have to design it.

 

I will do motherboard, add in some needed fixes, and put expansion ports. If people want to make it better, then people will have to do the work themselves. I really don't want to spend the next 20+ years designing Atari mods. This is also why I want to do a motherboard which people can upgrade easily in the future.

 

As said above. A lot of solutions are already done, my store is full of them for example. So better to build motherboard with current "addons" in mind. All the popular ones, like IDE etc. My IDE solutions isn't built or tested, and could be a year or more befores I get time to do it. Though someone else could design a addon anyway. All this stuff doesn't need my own personal attention.

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:)

 

I have had a lot of suggestions for this new motherboard. Some will be added (basically easy ones for now). Such as someone requested a jumper link to swap drive AB select wires around. So that type of thing can be easily added. I will post a better "overview" of the board on my blog soon. Though work is ongoing, a few hours a day or week. There is actually a lot of "background" changes to the design. Though to many to list at the moment.

 

I have probably wired up about 80% of the design so far. I am really busy next week with work, but I hope to get the schematic done in some form over the next couple of weeks. Then after a lot of double-checking, we can look into getting a prototype board designed and built :)

 

http://exxosnews.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/stfm-rebuild-overview-of-basic-changes.html

Edited by exxosuk
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this is a nice project. BTW what about change TOS ROM to some flashable memory solution. It would be nice if there is a possibility to flash a new EmuTOS for example.

Even better would be some sort of boot key combo to bring up a menu on which TOS to flash to the ROM, then you could flip between them fairly easily. But yes, also be able to add in newer EmuTOS versions.

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this is a nice project. BTW what about change TOS ROM to some flashable memory solution. It would be nice if there is a possibility to flash a new EmuTOS for example.

 

Yes believe me, I have every suggestion at least 100 times :)

 

But I don't have a flash solution, or IDE, or fast-ram, or RTC, etc etc *yet*. I can only work on 20 things at a time, so a lot of stuff has to wait until I get around to it. Meanwhile, once the board is done, nothing to stop people from developing their own solutions.

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:) I understand. Everybody has something. But this is huge project so you have to count with such proposals. Some of them are possible and some are not. Personally I would like to see a version for 520ST without floppy. Somehow I like this small case. BTW It is a really pity there is not E version, but I know this is different story ;-)

Edited by krupkaj
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Yeah, I would like to create everything everyone wants. Though even simple things, like re-creating the simms, it took 2 months on and off until that was done. That is a super simple project in itself. So even simple things people want, take a long time, anything more advanced, well, basically forget it, I just don't have the time. People just don't realise the work involved. Most people think something will only take a few hours to do, well maybe so, but more hours to design PCB, build test, debug, takes weeks, months or even years. Multiply that by 100 people wanting 100 Simple things" and thats more like 10 years of my life gone. Work on my boosters has hit a standstill because I am struggling to keep up with stock in my store. So designing anything else, well, not enough hours in the day.

 

There is also the fact that no matter what I develop, likely only 5-10 things of them will ever sell. So I am reluctant to keep spending months of time to develop something which hardly anyone will use. More to the point (again) with all my kits, I have pretty much re-designed the motherboard anyway.. Future kits will become a lot easier to make and for people to fit.

 

Anything is possible if enough people work on things. Just people have to realise, I am not "super man" and can't create the 200+ hour day. So 99 projects won't get done, thats just how things are. I do know what everyone wants, and yes it will be done as addons eventually, and yes they will be included as "Stock" on the new board, but that is likely some years away as there is a lot of work to be done.

Edited by exxosuk
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Now you mention the Audio circuit. It's not uncommon to see questions about the stereo mod on forums. Since it's a new design it can be a standard feature? Maybe with circuitry/switch to switch mono/stereo and the 3 channels from left-right-center?

 

I wonder why nobody, back in the day, piggy-backed a second YM chip to get stereo sound like the Pokey stereo upgrades. Would also give you 2 extra 8-bit ports for hardware projects :-p

 

Robert

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Anything is possible if enough people work on things. Just people have to realise, I am not "super man" and can't create the 200+ hour day. So 99 projects won't get done, thats just how things are. I do know what everyone wants, and yes it will be done as addons eventually, and yes they will be included as "Stock" on the new board, but that is likely some years away as there is a lot of work to be done.

Nah, you're more like Iron Man, except instead of building cool suits and weapons, you build ST upgrades!

 

Ha, sorry, just got back from Spiderman: Homecoming, that movie was fantastic!

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Yes believe me, I have every suggestion at least 100 times :)

 

But I don't have a flash solution, or IDE, or fast-ram, or RTC, etc etc *yet*. I can only work on 20 things at a time, so a lot of stuff has to wait until I get around to it. Meanwhile, once the board is done, nothing to stop people from developing their own solutions.

 

Hmm how about high speed serial via DB9, instead of original 19k2 via DB25 then? :)

Edited by mpattonm
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