An Idea for Crowd Funding: Making 2600 Reproductions

[RamrodHare]

The phrase from Kropotkin is that "all belongs to all". Private property is immoral, only a system where everything is owned by everyone is moral.

 

 

At first, I wasn't completely against your idea on reproductions, but the more you said, the less I liked where you were taking this thread. Then came the bit of text listed above..

 

First off, Kropotkin may have been a good scientist in his time, but his ideas on anarchy and communism were absurd and that's what you're quoting. I doubt you will gain any support from other members here if that's the type of thing you're going to use to make your point.

 

If I were to take those words literally and make a hypothetical example, here's what it would translate to.

 

I've just built a new house, some stranger walks in and begins to go through cabinets and drawers. I ask him to leave the house. He states, this house and everything in it, belong to everyone, meaning he has just as much right to be there as I do. Of course this concerns me greatly. Fearing he isn't getting enough oxygen to his brain, I begin to add more holes to his head using surgical instrument number 45, designed by the Colt company. Sadly, the operation is a failure and he leaves "MY" house in a body bag.

 

I have a feeling that the more you bring up communism, the less friends you are going to make here.

Edited July 20, 2017 by RamrodHare

[vidak]

I'm unashamed about this, I'm a communist. I don't see how that's an issue. I'm not an anarchist, I'm a Marxist, but I'm comrades with a lot of anarchists, and I really liked the quote from Kropotkin.

 

Communism isn't about shooting people or invading people's private space at all, and I think your thought experiment is really silly.

[toiletunes]

I'm going home

[Rom Hunter]

Private property is immoral, only a system where everything is owned by everyone is moral.

History has proven otherwise.

 

That's all I'm going to say about this.

 

 

Back to the topic: why would you do this?

 

To please the ones that can't afford to buy the real thing?

 

While there's a Harmony Cart and Stella emulator out there that can play all the original ROMS including the extremely rare ones and most prototypes?

 

And exactly who really needs another bunch of repro carts that look like the real thing?

 

The collector that wants to fill the gaps in his genuine cart collection, I guess?

 

I'm not fond of reproduction labels at all (especially the ones that look genuine), because they gobble up my research time and it irritates me to no end that inexperienced buyers are stepping into the 'I Found The Real Thing!' trap while some dishonest seller is making profit of it.

 

Again: why would you do this?

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Rom Hunter

[RamrodHare]

I'm unashamed about this, I'm a communist. I don't see how that's an issue. I'm not an anarchist, I'm a Marxist, but I'm comrades with a lot of anarchists, and I really liked the quote from Kropotkin.

 

Communism isn't about shooting people or invading people's private space at all, and I think your thought experiment is really silly.

My hypothetical was meant to be a bit silly. In real life you're probably a great guy, so I'm not trying to insult you. My point is that most people don't agree with your views on reproductions and copyrights. Also, a lot of people don't agree with communism. Your posts tied the two together, which is going to ruffle some feathers. When the thread first started, I was open to the idea of making 2600 games more accessible to people. I still agree, to some extent. I do feel that if someone puts the work in to making something, they should be able to choose what they do with it. They should also be able to make money from their work. If they don't want someone copying it and selling it, that's their choice and they have the right to make that choice. If you stick to old out of production games and you are making clearly marked copies to get them in the hands of people who can't find or afford the real thing, I'm with you. I understand where your coming from. I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness.

Edited July 20, 2017 by RamrodHare

[vidak]

I'd do it to make video games accessible to more people. To the poor, really. The harmony cart is 95 Australian dollars shipped to Australia. I want to make Atari games (which are wonderful) accessible to many more people moving forward in time.

 

ROMs are one way of enjoying Atari games, definitely, but they're not the full experience, are they. I suppose the full experience could be delivered with a USB joystick. Maybe manufacturing those would make Atari games more accessible - that I hadn't thought about!

 

But in any case I don't see why making repros wouldn't be an economical way to make video games accessible to the poor. Modern video games are marked up $20 more in AUD than US games. I find much gaming completely unaffordable. Retro gaming in an authentic guise is now completely inaccessible to the poor, NES consoles and modern reproductions frequently just as expensive as discount modern consoles.

[vidak]

My hypothetical was meant to be a bit silly. In real life you're probably a great guy, so I'm not trying to insult you. My point is that most people don't agree with your views on reproductions and copyrights. Also, a lot of people don't agree with communism. Your posts tied the two together, which is going to ruffle some feathers. When the thread first started, I was open to the idea of making 2600 games more accessible to people. I still agree, to some extent. I do feel that if someone puts the work in to making something, they should be able to choose what they do with it. They should also be able to make money from their work. If they don't want someone copying it and selling it, that's their choice and they have the right to make that choice. If you stick to old out of production games and you are making clearly marked copies to get them in the hands of people who can't find or afford the real thing, I'm with you. I understand where your coming from. I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness.

 

I am a nice guy! I'm super chill. I also don't like to tell people what to do, but I do judge people on their actions. When I develop my own Atari 2600 homebrews, I'm going to licence them accordingly and release the source code so that everyone can benefit from my efforts. That's something /I/ can control.

 

Would I ever make seamless repros of homebrews? No way. Do I disagree with the decision for people to deliberately hide their source code? Completely. I think it's immoral.

 

Like I have always maintained, if I ever manage to pull together the money, I'll focus on titles out of copyright. I will sell at cost and will absolutely run not for profit.

 

Everyone deserves video games, especially 2600 games, but they're the best games and they're loads and loads of fun. We should have a preference for helping the poor.

[Rom Hunter]

Then I guess these poor people (who also want to have the full VCS experience) have to buy a second hand Heavy Sixer, a second hand vintage color TV set, a second hand CX-10 and a cheap repro Mangia' cart from you.

And some current ofcourse.

Good luck!

Edited July 20, 2017 by Rom Hunter

[vidak]

It's actually a pie in the sky dream of mine to be the first to return to manufacturing CRT TVs hahahahah

[Keatah]

I'm not entirely sure what to make of the current discussion. It's easy to say the more the better. And I tend to lean that way.

 

Carts appeal to nostalgia chasers, gamers, library builders, and collectors. "Library builder" is the equivalent of a gamer I suppose mixed with the accumulation/hoarding behaviors of a collector. The library builder has lower standards for perfect labels or perfect plastic textures. Any old cart will do as long as it works.

 

All that is fine. But I believe that Emulation & Harmony are becoming more prevalent, especially to adults whom have limited time. The time savings those two methods offer is very real and substantial - beginning with acquiring the games and ending with storing, organizing, and accessing them. Emulation and Harmony can likely save you several hours per month. And that's a free evening. Or like cutting out of work early.

 

Emulation may not offer the full 100% genuine experience you remember exactly from childhood. But it is going to come close, and bring modern convenience to the table at the same time. The enhancements offered by emulation can reduce frustration in many ways from organization to reliability to certain gameplay aids.

 

Many a time I've been playing something and had to stop, emulation covered my ass. There have been times I wanted to study the mechanics of a move, emulation allowed it via frame-by-frame and slow-motion play. Emulation has allowed me to play in locales a real console would never go. And more.

[vidak]

I agree. Let a thousand flowers bloom, the saying goes.

[hizzy]

Wow, this conversation has taken an interesting turn!

 

There's some good intentions here, but the energy might be misdirected. There are things the poor need more than reproduction cartridges of a video game system 99% of the world doesn't care about.

 

"Be it ours to see, from the first day of the Revolution to the last, in all the provinces fighting for freedom, that there is not a single man who lacks bread, not a single woman compelled to stand with the weariful crowd outside the bake-house-door, that haply a coarse loaf may be thrown to her in charity, not a single child pining for want of food." - From "Bread" by Prince Kropotkin

[accousticguitar]

I'd do it to make video games accessible to more people. To the poor, really. The harmony cart is 95 Australian dollars shipped to Australia. I want to make Atari games (which are wonderful) accessible to many more people moving forward in time.

 

ROMs are one way of enjoying Atari games, definitely, but they're not the full experience, are they. I suppose the full experience could be delivered with a USB joystick. Maybe manufacturing those would make Atari games more accessible - that I hadn't thought about!

 

But in any case I don't see why making repros wouldn't be an economical way to make video games accessible to the poor. Modern video games are marked up $20 more in AUD than US games. I find much gaming completely unaffordable. Retro gaming in an authentic guise is now completely inaccessible to the poor, NES consoles and modern reproductions frequently just as expensive as discount modern consoles.

Reproductions are not more affordable than the Harmony cart. For $100, how many carts could you make? 10? 20? You can get 1,000 games on the Harmony cart for less than $100. That is economy.

 

The Harmony cart is the full experience of playing the games. They play identical to the games in the individual carts. The only difference is cost and not having stacks of cartridges around (or boxes either). And really, to have the "full experience" you would need to manufacture boxes and manuals too. That would drive production costs up and the poor wouldn't be able to buy as many games.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

^^This^^

 

I had the same thought when I read the quoted post. I'm all for making VCS games accessible to more people, but cheap knockoffs aren't the way to do it.

[+thegoldenband]

I earned less teaching at college than I did stacking shelves at the supermarket.

 

Bummer!

 

Just in case anyone thinks this reflects badly on vidak somehow, this is the reality at most colleges/universities. In many, most of the actual teaching is done by adjuncts and grad students who -- if they divide their salary (typically $2-4K per course, sometimes less) by the hours they put in -- are usually making well under minimum wage, with no health insurance or other benefits. And grad students are paying to be there, of course.

 

There's a reason the Simpsons did this joke:

 

[Jinroh]

^

|

 

This is true, I was an Adjunct Professor for a while, and made a paltry sum. Did I starve? Not entirely, but I later returned to working in the private sector, so I could actually make a better wage. Layoffs keep mucking that up though every 1-2 years.

 

 

I'm all for free market competition, but I don't think cheap carts are the best viable market, there's some cheap non-Melody homebrew boards out there and Albert's services.

 

Though from the one discussion in the Homebrew forum we are having, a good option for well made custom boxes is something a few of us are looking for.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Jinroh

[+KaeruYojimbo]

This may be something that has been brought up elsewhere, but how many 2600 games are there that could even be considered abandonware? Atari, Activision, Imagic and M-Network games are all still actively marketed. Coleco and Parker Bros games were all arcade ports or licensed properties. Those alone rule out a large percentage of the games people come to the 2600 for.

[RodLightning]

It's actually a pie in the sky dream of mine to be the first to return to manufacturing CRT TVs hahahahah

As a good communist, remember that it cannot be YOU doing any manufacturing. At best, aspire to be a worker in a government controlled factory building CRTs! LOL

[CPUWIZ]

Do I disagree with the decision for people to deliberately hide their source code? Completely. I think it's immoral.

 

I feel the same way about your wallet, I should have access to your money whenever I want. I think it is immoral for you not to give your money away.

[Velvis]

This whole thread seems ridiculous. Are there really that many poor people that have a need to play 40 year old Atari games? and if thats the case wouldnt just buying a Harmony cart (despite the cost) be a better financial decision than a handful of repro carts in the long run?

 

Also why not just have every poor person contact you for some of your money that belongs to everyone so they can buy a Harmony Cart?

[Swami]

 

 

Just in case anyone thinks this reflects badly on vidak somehow, this is the reality at most colleges/universities. In many, most of the actual teaching is done by adjuncts and grad students who -- if they divide their salary (typically $2-4K per course, sometimes less) by the hours they put in -- are usually making well under minimum wage, with no health insurance or other benefits. And grad students are paying to be there, of course.

 

There's a reason the Simpsons did this joke:

 

simpsons grad student.jpg

 

I got paid $18,000 a year with tuition waived, by the university (not student aide) to go to grad school. Not easy street, but not living the slum life either.

 

^

|

 

This is true, I was an Adjunct Professor for a while, and made a paltry sum. Did I starve? Not entirely, but I later returned to working in the private sector, so I could actually make a better wage. Layoffs keep mucking that up though every 1-2 years.

 

 

I'm all for free market competition, but I don't think cheap carts are the best viable market, there's some cheap non-Melody homebrew boards out there and Albert's services.

 

Though from the one discussion in the Homebrew forum we are having, a good option for well made custom boxes is something a few of us are looking for.

What is "non-Melody homebrew"?

[Swami]

Taking bets. Who thinks the tenacious free market individualist capitalists are going to convince the well-meaning Marxist communist idealist to join them?

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'd do it to make video games accessible to more people. To the poor, really. The harmony cart is 95 Australian dollars shipped to Australia. I want to make Atari games (which are wonderful) accessible to many more people moving forward in time.

And $95 AUD is a lot less than most flash carts for other systems cost.

 

Two or three homebrews shipped Down Under would probably exceed this cost. My advice to you, if you can't afford to buy homebrew, is to save up for a Harmony cart shipped to your home, pay whatever import duty on it, and play all the games you want. Get the older model as 98% of games work without issue on it and the Encore is only needed for the remaining 2%.

 

Many homebrewers freely release their ROMs to the public. This is free sharing which goes right along with your ideology. But please respect copyright and do not make repros of other's homebrew. The main reason Hozer got boycotted by the community was exactly because he repro'ed literally everything requested of him, even against developer's wishes.

 

Please don't make the same mistake Hozer did. You are welcome here but I wouldn't advertise your political or religious views which is against forum policy anyway.

 

Now let's lock this thread and pretend you never asked. I think you deserve a second chance as you seem to be a nice person but got started on the wrong foot. I also wish your students the best. You seem like you would make an interesting history or political science professor.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

What is "non-Melody homebrew"?

Some homebrews use advanced bankswitch schemes or an ARM coprocessor. Most of these run on Melody hardware. Simple schemes that rely on single or multiple 4kb banks, with or without extra RAM (SaraSara) that do not utilize ARM code, can sometimes be made to run on recycled Atari PCBs or new cost reduced circuit boards with simple logic schemes. All AA homebrew use new PCBs but many of Hozer repros or bootlegged games are recycled PCBs when convenient to do so.

[Swami]

Some homebrews use advanced bankswitch schemes or an ARM coprocessor. Most of these run on Melody hardware. Simple schemes that rely on single or multiple 4kb banks, with or without extra RAM (SaraSara) that do not utilize ARM code, can sometimes be made to run on recycled Atari PCBs or new cost reduced circuit boards with simple logic schemes. All AA homebrew use new PCBs but many of Hozer repros or bootlegged games are recycled PCBs when convenient to do so.

Okay, this is a name brand:

https://www.atariage.com/store/index.php?l=page_view&p=atariage_melody

 

Thanks