Banquo Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) My Apple IIgs system came today, I was so excited! I thought I got a great deal on it too, the auction said it was tested, in very good condition and well taken care of. Well as soon as I lifted it out of the box I knew something was wrong, the metallic sound of rust and destruction met my ears. It was falling out in the box. When I opened it up this is what greeted me: http://imgur.com/a/bQC11 As soon as I opened it up I felt sick. I've contacted the seller and sent photos but so far have not received a response. Hopefully ebay will cover me if need be. Edited July 19, 2017 by Banquo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) I wouldn't even contact, just hit that "item not as described" radio box, what's the seller going to do? lie some more? its a shame though I like the IIGS its a fun machine Edited July 19, 2017 by Osgeld 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Whoa, so there's a blown IIGS battery, I guess. I've always wondered how that even happens because on my three boards, the battery's in a different location and isn't in a holder like that with metal-on-metal contact. Now I see that some boards are like this. Is this a rom 00 or a rom 3? I think all I have are rom 01's, although they're all slightly different revisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banquo Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 You're probably right. Kind of hoping they would reply and make things easy. I was so looking forward to playing some Apple II games this evening. I just don't understand how someone could pretend this thing was working and in great shape as if the buyer isn't going to notice. I didn't look at the ROMs to see what they were, I just packed it all back up. From now on if I buy an old computer on ebay I'll make sure to get photos of the inside and of it actually running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymorph Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 You're probably right. Kind of hoping they would reply and make things easy. I was so looking forward to playing some Apple II games this evening. I just don't understand how someone could pretend this thing was working and in great shape as if the buyer isn't going to notice. I didn't look at the ROMs to see what they were, I just packed it all back up. From now on if I buy an old computer on ebay I'll make sure to get photos of the inside and of it actually running. The (bad) board you have is a ROM 3. This version of the IIgs ironically has the battery in a caddy for easy removal/replacement. ROM 1 versions of the IIgs had the battery soldered onto the motherboard via two leads (and as another post hinted, the battery is in a slightly different location). This is *exactly* why I recommend replacing batteries on *any* vintage machine as soon as they come into your possession, but in this case it looks like the seller was either being ignorant (he didn't open the case) or deceptive. Either way, I'd be filing a case against the seller for misrepresenting the state of the machine. Such a shame. I hope you are successful in finding another machine, they really are a fun machine to play with (in fact my personal favourite). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banquo Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) They wrote back and said they were sorry but they only go by the outside looks and "We can't warrantee the internal parts or condition". Uh, they said they power tested it though. Besides that there was tons of rust falling out of it and big chunks of metal ratting around inside. I'm going to file a case I guess. Edit: Filed a case with ebay, it says to pack it up and return it to receive a refund. What if the seller doesn't want to pay though? Does ebay cover it? Edited July 19, 2017 by Banquo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 That's ridiculous.. Get ebay involved asap. If they plugged it in and turned on the power and the light lit up. Then that, technically, means they tested it to the best of their ability. The light works, it functions. The inside was not "tested" by visual means. And they said that. Good faith says one thing, get a refund. Letter of the law says another, you lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Cade Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 If you end up stuck with it, I have some IIgs motherboards. You could clean up the case and use one as long as the power supply is OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 not that most of us here are internet trade lawyers maybe a link to the original listing could be helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banquo Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) That's ridiculous.. Get ebay involved asap. If they plugged it in and turned on the power and the light lit up. Then that, technically, means they tested it to the best of their ability. The light works, it functions. The inside was not "tested" by visual means. And they said that. Good faith says one thing, get a refund. Letter of the law says another, you lose. I plugged it in and flipped the power switch, absolutely nothing happened. It's completely dead. They said they powered it on. Also they would not have to have opened it up to know something was wrong, as I said it was full of big chunks of rusted metal and debris rattling around and raining out of it. The bottom of the box was covered with rust. not that most of us here are internet trade lawyers maybe a link to the original listing could be helpful I wasn't sure if I should link it but why not. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIGS-2GS-A2S6000-Computer-Monitor-2-5-25-Drives-Keyboard-Software/292184385665 I just don't think what I got matches up with what's advertised in that listing. They didn't send the box of software either. I'm not really sure what to do now. I filed the claim with eBay and they sent me a return label and told me to ship it back to get a refund, but the buyer said no. Edited July 20, 2017 by Banquo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banquo Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 If you end up stuck with it, I have some IIgs motherboards. You could clean up the case and use one as long as the power supply is OK. The power supply is pretty corroded, I don't know if it even works either. I tried to power it on and got nothing. The inside of the case is also completely rusted. Thanks for the offer though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 There's a lot of fine points to debate here. Obvious and not-so-obvious. They wrote back and said they were sorry but they only go by the outside looks and "We can't warrantee the internal parts or condition". BZZZZTT!! Wrong answer. That was not stated in the auction. The auction had implied the unit was well cared for and operational. Clearly it is not. And that is in your favor. Edit: Filed a case with ebay, it says to pack it up and return it to receive a refund. What if the seller doesn't want to pay though? Does ebay cover it? Ebay will work with Paypal and the credit card company and the seller first. As a last resort ebay will pay out, like if the seller skips town.. So you're covered. Ebay values their buyers. I've never had to go that far. But on numerous occasions I have asked that question and that was the answer I've been given. Several times. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 The power supply is pretty corroded, I don't know if it even works either. I tried to power it on and got nothing. The inside of the case is also completely rusted. Thanks for the offer though This is a gonner unit unless you plan on major heroics and bux deluxe. Repairing the board is always possible, but not at any sort of reasonable cost. Replating, cutting out rust and corrosion, relaminating the board, rebuilding traces. And more. $3,000 and up. If it was one of 500 left on the planet I'd say let's take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banquo Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 There's a lot of fine points to debate here. Obvious and not-so-obvious. BZZZZTT!! Wrong answer. That was not stated in the auction. The auction had implied the unit was well cared for and operational. Clearly it is not. And that is in your favor. Ebay will work with Paypal and the credit card company and the seller first. As a last resort ebay will pay out, like if the seller skips town.. So you're covered. Ebay values their buyers. I've never had to go that far. But on numerous occasions I have asked that question and that was the answer I've been given. Several times. Thanks, that's reassuring. This is the first time I've ever had a problem like this buying something on ebay and I'm a little frazzled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I plugged it in and flipped the power switch, absolutely nothing happened. It's completely dead. They said they powered it on. Also they would not have to have opened it up to know something was wrong, as I said it was full of big chunks of rusted metal and debris rattling around and raining out of it. The bottom of the box was covered with rust. Not necessarily, the rust and corrosion chunks could have been held in place by several methods like "puzzle shape" or Van Der Waals forces. And it all broke free in normal shipment jostling. The rust and corrosion could have still been making enough contact with stuff, enough to get the power light to light up. But after shipping..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I wasn't sure if I should link it but why not. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIGS-2GS-A2S6000-Computer-Monitor-2-5-25-Drives-Keyboard-Software/292184385665 I'll never understand why people are afraid to post their auctions that've gone bad.. It's not like you're exposing a state secret or anything. I just don't think what I got matches up with what's advertised in that listing. They didn't send the box of software either. You didn't. I'm not really sure what to do now. I filed the claim with eBay and they sent me a return label and told me to ship it back to get a refund, but the buyer said no. Have plenty of pictures. Make some like they made in the auction. Have some of the inside. Videos are even better. Ebay looks at that stuff. They did mine when I filed a case about a year ago (poor packaging damage). Take some of the screws just in case the buyer counters with "He swapped the board!". I heard of that happening once, but again it could be exaggeration.. Do exactly what ebay says, if they say return, then return. It may take some time. I've only had to execute 3 "forced" returns in 18 years of ebay'ing. 2 of them dragged out because we had to wait a preset time to give the sellers time to respond. Another was quick and no contest. --- It also helps to buy from other hobbyists and enthusiasts. All too many times you have some fat bitch cruising the garage sales in her land yacht. They see Apple, they see $$$ on ebay. More often than not, "we" indicates an operation that does that and similar. "I" is a little more reassuring. It's more a one-on-one deal, with you, and with the buyer and the item. And if the wording of the auction doesn't hint at the type of seller they are, then ask some basic tech questions. History of the unit. Why is it being sold, what was the main usage of it? What kinds of cards are inside? Not like what does 3D0G do or do both peeking and poking click the speaker? And does it do with with the power off. It does indeed click if you poke it with a pin! Peeking does too, but you need power for that! No matter how hard you peek and look, if the power's off it remains silent. Woot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightbit Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 It's one of the dreaded Maxell batteries. Those red batteries are VERY well known for leakage and violent exploding. I have seen serious damage to a lot of old Mac computers due to that battery. What a waste of a ROM3 board (the board in this one is the much more sought after board!) Send it back like ebay says, they don't give a rats ass what the seller says...you will get a refund. When you do make sure to purchase from someone who knows their computer INSIDE as well as out. Sellers should know about what they are selling and the state of the battery. I wouldn't buy any of these without pictures of the board and battery area. There is no excuse especially with the IIGS as it is user friendly to open. And in case you missed it (in the other thread) here is a nice thread with testaments to the battery issues: https://68kmla.org/f...pram-batteries/ Until all people in the market for these and other vintage computers are informed I foresee these and other machines becoming even more rare in working condition than they currently are due to "death by battery". Knowledge is power. Know what has a battery and get it out as soon as possible (whatever brand it is!)....and leave it out for God sake....that is if it hasn't already done its damage by now. I reiterate that a STICKY is needed in the vintage computer forums regarding batteries and what to look for. Seems many people are unaware until they make a purchase and find stuff like this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Keep posting updates, I'm curious what happens. I'm sure you'll get your money back, I am just curious how long it takes and how much grief the seller gives you. I just looked at the auction page and agree that you didn't get what was advertised. "Powers up but we don't know how to boot it" definitely does not mean "will not power on or boot" and it certainly does not mean "contains physical damage preventing it from booting". "Very good condition" is also going to be basically an instant out; Ebay's going to take one look at your photos and determine that it was not in stated condition. Also, I'm 99% sure they were being deceptive. Even if not, this is a cautionary tale of why I generally think it's a bad idea to bid on "untested" auctions or BINs. I've posted before that "untested" often means "broken". I think this is probably why the price was so low, although you would have had a great deal if the machine did actually work. But I think the stated lack of trying to boot it up is a red flag to a lot of buyers. And the fact that they set the price that low probably means they knew what they had. I find it hard to believe these people didn't know what they were doing. They clearly knew what cables it was supposed to come with, and they had them all. Why did they "not know" how to boot it? Connect the cables and put a disk in! They have a box of software there. The Apple II boots more easily than any classic computer. If they knew enough to hook it up to check power, and they knew enough to know all the cables were there, then they knew enough to boot it. Edited July 21, 2017 by spacecadet 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banquo Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Follow up time; the seller finally contacted me again and asked if I would consider a partial refund and just keep everything. I think after ebay contacted him he realized he was going to take a big loss on it. I was actually considering asking him about it but from his first email and lack of followup I figured he wasn't going to be reasonable. Anyway I got most of my money back and get to keep everything. The computer is of course junk but maybe I can clean up the case at least, and the monitor, drives and keyboard all seem to be in good condition. I can't test them at the moment unfortunately but I'll take a chance. If I can get a good GS now to go with the rest I think it will still end up being a pretty good buy, I hope. I'm glad it's over anyway, wasn't looking forward to lugging this huge heavy box back to town and possibly dealing with an angry seller over it. Spacecadet, that's good advice. I agree I jumped too quickly on it and the lack of any pictures of it running or of the inside should have been red flags. It just seemed like such a great deal I was afraid someone else would snag it. I will definitely be much more careful in the future and make sure to get all the details. I do find it very hard to believe he even tested it and there is no way it powered on like the auction stated. Maybe someone told him it powered it on, it seems he sells donations, but I learned a valuable lesson in any case. Thanks again everyone for all of your help and support; I'm hoping I'll be able to make a post about my working GS system someday. Edited July 21, 2017 by Banquo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamgroot Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 The way I judge a seller is, he should at least have a 100% rating up until about 700 sales. Then a 1% drop for each 1000 sales. So, 97% for 3000 sales. That is as low as I go. 97% rating for any number of sales after that. So far, I have opened 3 disputes and have never lost one yet, but the key is to file a complaint as soon as possible so it keeps the negotiations open before the end of the term after a sale has been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I don't worry about ratings unless they're down in the low 90's. I do, however, engage the seller with some questions about the item, history, reasons for sale, origin.. Not ALL of that, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 The way I judge a seller is, he should at least have a 100% rating up until about 700 sales. Then a 1% drop for each 1000 sales. So, 97% for 3000 sales. That is as low as I go. 97% rating for any number of sales after that. So far, I have opened 3 disputes and have never lost one yet, but the key is to file a complaint as soon as possible so it keeps the negotiations open before the end of the term after a sale has been made. You can't expect every seller to have a 100% rating. I buy and sell with my ebay account and purchase several things that were not as advertised in the first 100 things I purchased/sold. Several sellers wouldn't leave feedback until after I did, and I had to leave negative feedback... so they left negative feedback. Up until I left negative feedback they all had a 100% rating... and once one person (me) gave them negative feedback, buyers seemed to come out of the woodwork with negative feedback for the sellers. If someone has negative feedback, read it and the reply. Also check to see if the people that left negative feedback are still listed. Everyone I left negative feedback for was gone within a few months. Just sayin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Yes. I've had several ebayers thrown out myself. Deserved it, especially when I've given them several opportunities and plenty of time to make it right. OTH I had to reassure some sellers several times over that everything's a-ok, because weather was bad on the east coast and it was obvious there would be shipping problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightbit Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 The keyboard is not the original but is still quite a good Keyboard (Keyboard II). I have one and really like it. The monitor looks good and if it works that will be great. I think keeping those and a partial refund will still make this deal well worth it. Don't let this deter you on grabbing a IIGS though. You have most of the parts you need (aside a 3 1/2 drive) and your persistence will pay off. It is a super machine. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 its not a original IIgs keyboard they look like this http://macgui.com/gallery/showphoto.php?pic_id=428 which is almost identical except some minor details, and the keyboard you got with it is a good keyboard it came with the LC and SE models maybe some others, course I dunno what came with later II gs systems they might have commonized after the mac dropped it telephone cable keyboards and before the end of the II line, I mean except for some ridges in the case and improved electronics so its not clock locked to a specific bus frequency, they are pretty much the same I had to take a double take, then 8 bit said keyboard II, the one to look out for is the extended keyboard II, its the apple version of the model M, its HUGE and HEAVY and LOUD its so good 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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