Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Maze has very low Distance yes but could work for RPGs where enemies are randomly popping up (not like in ultima underworld ) Edited August 15, 2017 by Heaven/TQA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Damn, that demo is awesome ! They must have some really fast line drawing routine for that terrain. I suppose the StarRaider midpoint idea (of the 17-point line) could be quickly implemented as a first version... Thanks for confirming the code size savings. Yeah, when the polygon is close to camera and spans many full scanlines, it must be, like, 10x faster (or more) to just draw the char, instead of 8x8 pixels (16 Bytes). I'll keep thinking about rendering to chars... Isn't this mode frowned upon by users too much (as being lowres) ? I can see these advantages from my point of view: - half bandwidth cost of clearing, filling - half Antic cost of cycles lost - obviously faster framerate - in 3D the aspect ratio is not a big deal (unlike 2D) - 3.5k more RAM than 160x192 I didn't know RoF used that mode ! If it was good enough for them... In demo scene trend goes to highres... and subpix.... me went back to 80x res but with doubled or tripled lines (see cube) and as I am coding PICO-8 at the moment with its 128x128 I am in Mode D land . Another advice for line drawing... Don't use bresenham use DDA.... it has 1 8x8 fastmul per line but the innerloop is a simple 8.8 add and can easily unrolled while brese is "complex" with its if/then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Midpoint vectors: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 RoF viewport is only 192x48 but enough for immersion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) DDA of course for filled vectors... for wireframe still brese Elements on Lynx I used DDA in the gouraud parts after the revision logo before voxel flight. But Lynx hardware helps here with its FPU, 4mhz CPU and sprite blitter... Edited August 15, 2017 by Heaven/TQA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 I didn't know RoF used that mode ! If it was good enough for them... The point is that people don't do the conclusion... the lower resolution might look a bit worse than the "stretched" single scanline color modes, but, rotating objects won't "deform". Also, the more fluent... or better real fluent animations, that can be reached, do much more than just "equalize" something. The graphics in Wolf 3D mostly tends to 160x100... or Voxelspace ... the "pixel" can get even bigger sized. Rescue on Fractalus looks impressive by it's speed and look of the hills. The mode allows to fly through canyons , while on other computers it mostly look like you're flying on top of a chessboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 The point is that people don't do the conclusion... the lower resolution might look a bit worse than the "stretched" single scanline color modes, but, rotating objects won't "deform". Also, the more fluent... or better real fluent animations, that can be reached, do much more than just "equalize" something. The graphics in Wolf 3D mostly tends to 160x100... or Voxelspace ... the "pixel" can get even bigger sized. Rescue on Fractalus looks impressive by it's speed and look of the hills. The mode allows to fly through canyons , while on other computers it mostly look like you're flying on top of a chessboard. yup. higher res doesn't mean "better" feeling. btw. your "2:1" deformation you are mentioning can be avoided easily by maths in the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 yup. higher res doesn't mean "better" feeling. btw. your "2:1" deformation you are mentioning can be avoided easily by maths in the engine. But the extra maths cost precious CPU time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 here is Bitbreakers Dirty Char explanation: http://www.codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:lines#going_fullscreen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 But the extra maths cost precious CPU time. nope.... you decompensate with different "reciproce" table for x and y axis in the persptrans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 nope.... you decompensate with different "reciproce" table for x and y axis in the persptrans... ? The extra filter for the different tables will cost several cycles. Also, the drawing/filling of the additional content will cost additional CPU cycles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 ? i guess you did not coded any 3d engine yet? ;=) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 ? i guess you did not coded any 3d engine yet? ;=) Sometimes I wonder how you get things done If you move an object that is just 20x20 pixel or 20x40 pixel is the virtually same for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) engine vise? yes... I was more referring to your 2:1 comment... highres has not much impect honestly... engine wise... but DMA steals sux on A8. (on c64 bitmap organisation sux.... that's why most fx use that 16x16 charmatrix = 256 chars...) ah not true... I would avoid going over 256x res in X-res so you would need to deal with 9bit coords... Edited August 15, 2017 by Heaven/TQA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 highres has not much impect honestly... engine wise... but DMA steals sux on A8. (on c64 bitmap organisation sux.... that's why most fx use that 16x16 charmatrix = 256 chars...) That "Character mode 3d look" on the C64 is useless. You may get one fast moving "3D LOOKING" Object. But, in a 3D scene they will get hard times. On the A8 NO ONE should just use those grid type objects. Solid fill is the way to go and ANTIC helps a lot with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Even funnier is the "Fractalus" Part in that C64 Demo... 94x84 ? Pixel... Zooming glasses were needed. Some speed is there, but it still looks like a chessboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Even funnier is the "Fractalus" Part in that C64 Demo... 94x84 ? Pixel... Zooming glasses were needed. Some speed is there, but it still looks like a chessboard [/Quote Nah... it's tradeoff with Memory etc... I have the source and it's not so trivial as it looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 That "Character mode 3d look" on the C64 is useless. You may get one fast moving "3D LOOKING" Object. But, in a 3D scene they will get hard times. On the A8 NO ONE should just use those grid type objects. Solid fill is the way to go and ANTIC helps a lot with that. Are you refferong to the "dirty charmode"? For player/viewer it's like fluid bitmap... and a lot faster than generic approach... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Are you refferong to the "dirty charmode"? For player/viewer it's like fluid bitmap... and a lot faster than generic approach... No! As the characters show an offset in the movement. And it is just some deception, not real 3D. And now, could you please explain, why you see "3D" in that C64 demo and "not 3D" in Rainbow Walker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Rainbow walker is in my understanding Q-Bert... player movement in 2 axis. Same Ballblazer... Zaxxon, Blue Max more 3d. As you move x,y,z. 3d is imho 3 dimensional movements and or gameplay. Old Diskussion.... Yoomp is 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Comaland... 3d flight and Vector object are 3d as the typical 3d stuff was used... matrix mul, persptrans, clipping, culling etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 No! As the characters show an offset in the movement. And it is just some deception, not real 3D. There's no "offset" in the movement. It's full 3d vectors. Each frame is different. Only "cheat" is not using every character in charset. Each frame is calculated from zero. Only minimum chars needed for lines is taken and ploted on screen. Every other part of screen is simply empty char. This way you can clear screen very fast (only change screen char locations taken in previous frame). Here you can see what chars are taken in one frame: That's around 180 chars used +1 for empty background. We can't use it just like that on A8 but version with two interleaved charsets is possible. It's sure possible to make fast vector game on A8. I wouldn't mind having something like Elite with this tech. On the other hand I do agree with you that full filled 3d is the way to go. A8 has more than enough speed for it. We'll have it soon... Couple years at most 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) In Comaland there is even no player movement ... so it's 0D? Seems some 8 bit guys seem to rule over what's 3D and what not. In Wolf 3D you even cannot jump. But the gameplay is 3D. As the movement is at the X and Z axis, while the player acting on the X and Y Axis. Q-Bert is indeed isometric 3D, as the gameplay is using 3 axis for the gameplay. The Rainbow Warrior is jumping, moving to the left , right, and the screen movement acts on the Z-Axis. Even the Enemies act on the depth position. To say "it is 3D, because of some 3D special calculations" were done, is such a silly C64 freak statement. Because it fits to the abilities the C64 can do, it is allowed ? What a peak of nonsense this is. If a DSP is done to handle objects in 3 axis, it is 3D even if not a bit of 3D calculations happen in the software. From that point, the "presentation" of the moving object in Comaland could be named 3D. But it will not end up in a 3D environment as Rainbow Walker already is. Edited August 15, 2017 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 There's no "offset" in the movement. You should watch the demo closer. Everytime some "3D" appears, the C64 stuff gets irregular, as not finished frames get completed the other frametime. I wonder, if that "trick" is somehow usable on the Atari. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 15, 2017 Share Posted August 15, 2017 mario... nooooooo.... Qbert is definitly 100% 2d.... sorry mate... don't get fooled by simple iso view.... where does it use 3 axis??? left/right/up/down = 2 axis... dont get fooled by "z-axis"... as you all action works in a 2d plane....you could call the axis like you want... say a-axis and b-axis.... and even Eidolon and Capture the Flag are only 2 axis... they have 3d engines... Capture Flag I even have e-mail by coder (and don't start to mess around as he is director of development at Activision... so he KNOWS what 3d is or not... ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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