Homebrews = Nostalgic Jackpot - But Possible in Early 80s?

[knievel1]

Like many, I come here for a little nostaligic high to balance out the world.

As a 10-year old kid I used to wanderJC Penny & Sears videogame dept. dreaming I was Richie Rich & could walk out of the store with a fat stack of Atari games.

 

I have not become Richie Rich.

But through Stella, rom collections, hacks & homebrews -- well, I can feel a little bit rich.

500+ Atari games & new ones arriving -- there's one dream come true, right?

 

One fun thought is imagining buying these games as a kid --

if we had gotten Hack 'Em instead of sucky 2600 Pac Man? Mind blown.

Juno First? No sleep for weeks.

Panky Panda? I woulda had to quit fifth grade.

 

I'm a bit ignorant to how it all works -- would these carts have been a possiblity in 1981?

Tech wise -- not licensing and such.

 

 

[Flojomojo]

Many of the developers of today's home-brews were kids back in 1981, and more than likely didn't have access to the hardware and information needed to make these games. The computers used today are way faster, and storage is way way way easier and cheaper ... could it be done? Yeah, under the right circumstances. It seems more likely today, despite the much smaller audience for this type of thing.

[up2knowgood]

The short answer is yes, but a more accurate answer is probably a maybe not.

 

Tech wise, absolutely, all the tools and tech existed back then, but was far more expensive and the knowledge harder to come by. That and back when the 2600 was HOT there's a good chance one of the MANY companies would probably have snapped them up. I mean look at Skeet Shoot, that game was basically a homebrew, designed and programmed by a teenager in his spare time, then he's given $5,000 for it, and a job to program more games. I mean, Atari probably stuck by the 4KB cartridge size for longer than it should have to save money, so a game like Zippy, which is 64KB in size, would probably have been killed off in development because of the costs involved in manufacturing a cartridge for it.

[+Random Terrain]

I mean look at Skeet Shoot, that game was basically a homebrew, designed and programmed by a teenager in his spare time, then he's given $5,000 for it, and a job to program more games. I mean, Atari probably stuck by the 4KB cartridge size for longer than it should have to save money, so a game like Zippy, which is 64KB in size, would probably have been killed off in development because of the costs involved in manufacturing a cartridge for it.

I thought he was an adult at the time?

 

digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_ed_salvo.html

 

archive.org/stream/Electronic_Fun_with_Computer_Games_Vol_01_No_03_1983-01_Fun_Games_Publishing_US/Electronic_Fun_with_Computer__Games_Vol_01_No_03_1983-01_Fun__Games_Publishing_US#page/n61/mode/1up/

[up2knowgood]

I thought he was an adult at the time?

 

digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_ed_salvo.html

 

archive.org/stream/Electronic_Fun_with_Computer_Games_Vol_01_No_03_1983-01_Fun_Games_Publishing_US/Electronic_Fun_with_Computer__Games_Vol_01_No_03_1983-01_Fun__Games_Publishing_US#page/n61/mode/1up/

Huh, that is something isn't it? Everything I have read about Apollo up until now said Ed was a teenager at the time, even on Atari Age here, but he sure doesn't look like a teenager in that article.

[Mr SQL]

 

I'm a bit ignorant to how it all works -- would these carts have been a possiblity in 1981?

Tech wise -- not licensing and such.

 

 

 

 

Great thread topic!

 

Some games leverage large amounts of memory or coprocessors that would be impossible in the early 80's.

 

It can be hard to tell which games use more modern technology because many programmers also write great games with the limited hardware like bitd.

 

All of my games work with CBS RAM and the SuperCharger, technology from 1981-1983. The ROM's are between 4 and 8K.

 

 

How far back into the 80's do you want to go?

 

You can ensure you experience pure retro homebrews using a retro flashcart like the SuperCharger since the only games it runs are between 2 and 6K and must be compatible with 1981 technology.

 

The new Atari Portable console is also limited to 80's technology in that while it has a modern ARM processor it also features a virtual lockout chip to limit homebrew programmers to using only the 8-bit 6502. Memory wise, I'm not sure if it supports 64K binaries but it does run the 32K ROM's that were produced later in the 80's.

 

Ironically enough I think we may see more new homebrews start to focus on compatibility with 80's technologies because of the new portable console and the phantom lockout chip.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

virtual lockout chip

I believe the phrase you're looking for is "poor emulation." There are plenty of games from the 80's that run poorly or not at all on the portable.

 

It's not just new technology that has lead to better quality games, but new programming techniques that push the 2600 to do more than was thought possible. So while many new games were technologically possible in the 80's, the knowledge required to make them didn't exist yet.

[knievel1]

I just try to imagine laying down thirty-five bucks at the Sears videogame section in 1982 & walking out with Juno First -- how crazy that first ten minutes of game play would have seemed compared to Superman / Atari Golf / Space Invaders / Air Sea Battle / Freeway

 

The answer that the tech was there but the knowledge not -- that sounds right.

 

I think a lot of us here are sort of living out a childhood dream of having a ton of Atari games

& it's cool to even ponder if Imagic or Atari or Activision could have manufactured these titles back then.

 

Interview with that Ed guy is cool.

[up2knowgood]

I just try to imagine laying down thirty-five bucks at the Sears videogame section in 1982 & walking out with Juno First -- how crazy that first ten minutes of game play would have seemed compared to Superman / Atari Golf / Space Invaders / Air Sea Battle / Freeway

 

The answer that the tech was there but the knowledge not -- that sounds right.

 

I think a lot of us here are sort of living out a childhood dream of having a ton of Atari games

& it's cool to even ponder if Imagic or Atari or Activision could have manufactured these titles back then.

 

Interview with that Ed guy is cool.

 

Back then, it would cost a lot more than that if it had been produced. Juno First is 32KB in size, which is larger than most(if not all) of the other games produced at the time. I'd say Atari would put the price up higher at maybe...$50 or more to offset the higher production costs. I don't know what the price difference between a 4 and 32KB board, but I imagine its pretty minimal today compared to what it was back then.

[christo930]

Like many, I come here for a little nostaligic high to balance out the world.

As a 10-year old kid I used to wanderJC Penny & Sears videogame dept. dreaming I was Richie Rich & could walk out of the store with a fat stack of Atari games.

 

I have not become Richie Rich.

But through Stella, rom collections, hacks & homebrews -- well, I can feel a little bit rich.

500+ Atari games & new ones arriving -- there's one dream come true, right?

 

One fun thought is imagining buying these games as a kid --

if we had gotten Hack 'Em instead of sucky 2600 Pac Man? Mind blown.

Juno First? No sleep for weeks.

Panky Panda? I woulda had to quit fifth grade.

 

I'm a bit ignorant to how it all works -- would these carts have been a possiblity in 1981?

Tech wise -- not licensing and such.

 

 

Almost everything you see was possible back then. Look at 8k Pac*Man... However, today's programmers are performing a labor of love without a marketing department demanding deadlines and beancounters demanding you keep the rom under 4k. The internet was not used by these people either. They had their co-workers, not Atariage where they can say, 'hey, I'm having a problem with X'. They also don't have the massive amounts of accumulated knowledge that now exists. Development is probably easier today, but that is more of a productivity thing than having better technology that make testing easier and way faster. I would imagine it took longer then to compile, burn and eprom and then test on real hardware ( than today, but not massively. I think the really big things are the lack of anything but self-imposed deadlines and the labor of love.

[Mr SQL]

I believe the phrase you're looking for is "poor emulation." There are plenty of games from the 80's that run poorly or not at all on the portable.

 

It's not just new technology that has lead to better quality games, but new programming techniques that push the 2600 to do more than was thought possible. So while many new games were technologically possible in the 80's, the knowledge required to make them didn't exist yet.

No I really meant virtual lockout chip - there is one game on the portable console that uses the ARM chip for more modern graphics, but it is only accessible to licensed Atari developers.

 

I actually find the emulation surprisingly good, we had to find and fix some bugs using workarounds to get some of our existing homebrews running and Nukey has pretty much patched all of the 80's games that were incompatible like he did for the ROM's that would not run on the SuperCharger.

 

Agree about new programming techniques pushing the 2600.

[Flojomojo]

I think I see what you're getting at -- you're talking about how the Atari portable only looks for a certain type of ROM file in the SD card slot. Calling it a "virtual lockout chip" seems a bit grandiose. That's like saying the Sony PlayStation "locks out" Sega Genesis cartridges because it only takes CDs, or a turntable "locks out" cassette tapes.

 

Yes you can play a higher-definition-than-VCS game of Frogger on that, but it's because it's programmed in ROM and there isn't a user-accessible way to write directly to the ARM chip like that.

[mr_me]

The 16K and 32K games mentioned would have been unlikely in 1981 as rom was still expensive, maybe in 1983 as memory prices were coming down. Hack'em is only 8K. When did the first 2600 8K cartridge come out, 16K? The other thing is those working at Atari were under pressure to get games out in three months or less, homebrewers can take as long as they like to improve their games. And as Christo said the development cycle for testing would have been slower back then.

 

Skeet Shoot was programmed on an Atari 800 according to wikipedia. So homebrewing was possible in 1980. How did he test the game on a 2600? Were any other home computers from the '70s (eg Apple II) used to homebrew 2600 games?

[Mr SQL]

I think I see what you're getting at -- you're talking about how the Atari portable only looks for a certain type of ROM file in the SD card slot. Calling it a "virtual lockout chip" seems a bit grandiose. That's like saying the Sony PlayStation "locks out" Sega Genesis cartridges because it only takes CDs, or a turntable "locks out" cassette tapes.

 

Yes you can play a higher-definition-than-VCS game of Frogger on that, but it's because it's programmed in ROM and there isn't a user-accessible way to write directly to the ARM chip like that.

 

Exactly - if they wanted, Atari could publish the API and let outside programmers build ARM enhanced games but they purposely retained tight control of it and even limited there own enhanced ARM game offerings to just one "as an experiment" according to Bill.

 

I think the idea behind that limited experiment is that the distinct look and feel of Atari games limited to early 80's Atari technology is more marketable.

 

 

The 16K and 32K games mentioned would have been unlikely in 1981 as rom was still expensive, maybe in 1983 as memory prices were coming down. Hack'em is only 8K. When did the first 2600 8K cartridge come out, 16K? The other thing is those working at Atari were under pressure to get games out in three months or less, homebrewers can take as long as they like to improve their games. And as Christo said the development cycle for testing would have been slower back then.

 

Skeet Shoot was programmed on an Atari 800 according to wikipedia. So homebrewing was possible in 1980. How did he test the game on a 2600? Were any other home computers from the '70s (eg Apple II) used to homebrew 2600 games?

 

Some ingenious programmers did use Apple II and RS Color Computers to compile code for the 2600 and burn it onto EPROM's to develop for it. Most programmers, myself included, just looked at the Atari and wished we could find a way to write games for it.

 

The Atari 2600 was tough for anyone to just write code for because it was designed to run programs that were written on a mainframe and only Atari's programmers initially knew anything about how that worked. At first there were no other companies making games for it, because it took time to diseminate the knowledge.

 

Today when we write Atari programs in Assembly or BASIC on our PC's we are effectively using mainframe technology like bitd and enjoy the same advantages Atari's programmers had.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

When did the first 2600 8K cartridge come out, 16K?

 

Asteroids was the first 8K cart. That was 1981. I think Burgertime was the first 16K game. That was early '83.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Asteroids was the first 8K cart. That was 1981. I think Burgertime was the first 16K game. That was early '83.

Burgertime was not an Atarisoft game though. I know Pacman Kr is 16kb. When did that come out?

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Burgertime was not an Atarisoft game though. I know Pacman Kr is 16kb. When did that come out?

 

I'm not sure about Jr. Pac-Man. 1987 maybe? Dig Dug was out in '83 and it's 16K. A few more 16K games game out in '84. Millipede, Crystal Castles, Stargate, probably others that I'm forgetting right now.

Edited August 27, 2017 by KaeruYojimbo

[BassGuitari]

Burgertime was not an Atarisoft game though.

No 2600 game was an Atarisoft game. Atarisoft only made games for non-Atari platforms (and often sub-contracted them out, at that).

[Flojomojo]

Exactly - if they wanted, Atari could publish the API and let outside programmers build ARM enhanced games but they purposely retained tight control of it and even limited there own enhanced ARM game offerings to just one "as an experiment" according to Bill.

 

I think the idea behind that limited experiment is that the distinct look and feel of Atari games limited to early 80's Atari technology is more marketable.

The first thing that would happen would be everyone who knows how to insert an SD card running the in-house AtGames Sega and Atari emulators on the same hardware. Half of their sales go *poof* right there!

 

Then the community would write an NES emulator, prompting Nintendo to come down on poor little AtGames like Terry Gilliam's cartoon foot in Monty Python.

 

https://youtu.be/49c-_YOkmMU

[Andromeda Stardust]

No 2600 game was an Atarisoft game. Atarisoft only made games for non-Atari platforms (and often sub-contracted them out, at that).

You know what I meant. My Burgertime is an M-network cartridge I think.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

You know what I meant. My Burgertime is an M-network cartridge I think.

Why does it matter that Burgertime wasn't published by Atari? It's still a 16k 2600 game.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Why does it matter that Burgertime wasn't published by Atari? It's still a 16k 2600 game.

Because Atari were cheapskates. They would never have gone beyond 8k games until 3rd party companies started churning out more impressive games with bigger ROMs. Then Atari took note.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Because Atari were cheapskates. They would never have gone beyond 8k games until 3rd party companies started churning out more impressive games with bigger ROMs. Then Atari took note.

Burgertime isn't the best example of a "more impressive game," to put it mildly. Did any third parties besides M-Network and Activision release any 16K games?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Burgertime isn't the best example of a "more impressive game," to put it mildly. Did any third parties besides M-Network and Activision release any 16K games?

Quite a few as a matter of fact, and 32kb games as well, if you count AtariAge as a third party!

[Keatah]

I think the accumulated and documented body of knowledge is the most important thing we have today. And that was missing back then.